Where on earth did you get that perspective? Did you come up with it yourself or did you read something? Identify the sources and post the links.
I think this illustrates the fundamental difference between modern [post middle age] denominations and the original church and why there will never be agreement. Language is taken at its present day meaning. So too with many of the teachings of sacred scriptures including purgatory.
As to the first point, I cannot believe that any believer in the history of Christianity has passed through their Christian life without suffering. Both Protestantism and Catholicism teach that suffering is a great tool of God to achieve our holiness, to strengthen our ties with Him, and to free us from our tendancy to sin. (Christians in China PRAY that the Christians in the United States will experience persecution. Think about that.) St. Paul promised us that IF WE SUFFER, WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM-2 Tim 2:12. Christ NEVER promised us an easy path, but rather commands us to take up our cross. I think the idea that suffering=bad is a product of our American culture, where we’re encouraged to “lose weight without starving yourself or killing yourself at the gym!” (I heard that on the radio at one point.)
I never said Christians don’t suffer nor that we don’t learn from or suffering, just that I don’t believe my personal suffering is necessary for me to enter heaven. The price for entering heaven is already paid. Any suffering we have on Earth, GOd will use for good. Just because it exists and God uses it for good dosn’t follow that it is required after death to enter heaven.
I already answered this point way earlier in this thread. I don’t believe suffering after death is how we lose the desire to sin. We are not perfect in our current existance… that will come after death. In light of perfect truth wich we will have in the presence with God in Heaven, no desire to sin can be present. It is like being in a dark cave where you cannot see your own hands and then suddenly someone turns on a bright light. The darkness MUST flee. You don’t have to torture it till it runs. It is just instantly gone. God’s Truth is like that, when you have the fullness of Gods truth all desire to sin instantly flees. On earth we can only have glimpses of this because we are still in a corrupt world with corrupt bodies. In Heaven we will not have to live with such limitations and purgatory is not necessary. It is inconcievable that in the light of God’s full truth that we could harbor any desire to sin and not be delivered straight to hell for it… that is blasphemy! You go to heaven to be with God and therefore be in HIS Truth or you go to Hell. You cannot be in between. You cannot be both hot and cold. You cannot be in full truth and be decietful.
Pmpqueen asks ‘where is this state’? We do not know whether it is a state [place], or how long it may last. All we know is we are at the mercy of God. It may be [in our time] a matter of nano-seconds, it may not equate to time at all. We just do not know. All we have is the teachings of Christ and revelations of the Holy Spirit upon our ‘deposit of faith’.
I thought Mr Niholo put it rather nicely:
I agree that he puts it “rather nicely” (I think he puts it VERY nicely), but the sins that we confess and for which we are truly sorry are already forgiven. This is what I keep trying to point out. We Catholics know that Purgatory coincides with indulgences. Here is a definition of Indulgences from the CCC;
What is an indulgence?
“An indulgence is a remission before God of the
temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt
has already been forgiven, which the
faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under
certain prescribed conditions through the action of
the Church which, as the minister of redemption,
dispenses and applies with authority the treasury
of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration
of communion with God entail the remission of the
eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment
of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and
trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely
facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this
temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should
strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by
prayer and the various practices of penance, to put
off completely the “old man” and to put on the
“new man.”
If you tune in to EWTN right now (9:52PM CT) “The Abundant Life” they are talking about Purgatory, Divine Mercy, First Saturday Devotions… They repeat tomorrow (Tuesday 4:00PM CT, 5:00PM Eastern). Well they are doing Father’s “Words of Wisdom” right now so the show is over now.
Hi Syele:wave:
), that scripture disagrees with you.That’s right, we have no idea of this. But since Mary was trying to get the seers to understand, I guess God had to put it in our “language” so to speak, so God put it more in a form of a “PLACE” rather than a “state.” The description was even put into a “time-frame” for us so that we can understand. Lucia was told that Amelia would spend time in Purgatory until the end of the world. Even with that, we do not know. I believe that if the CCC puts Purgatory more in a “state” form, then I guess you could say that both Heaven and Hell would also be more of a “state” form. That to me sounds a little too far fetched. And that is why I believe that Purgatory is an actual place. But that’s just me and of course I could be wrong.
JP II said that purgatory should be thought of as less as a place and more as a process without time limitations placed on it.That’s right, we have no idea of this. But since Mary was trying to get the seers to understand, I guess God had to put it in our “language” so to speak, so God put it more in a form of a “PLACE” rather than a “state.” The description was even put into a “time-frame” for us so that we can understand. Lucia was told that Amelia would spend time in Purgatory until the end of the world. Even with that, we do not know. I believe that if the CCC puts Purgatory more in a “state” form, then I guess you could say that both Heaven and Hell would also be more of a “state” form. That to me sounds a little too far fetched. And that is why I believe that Purgatory is an actual place. But that’s just me and of course I could be wrong.
This does make sense. :yup: But this “process” could take place in a “place” right?
LoLBut isn’t it in the particular judgement that death puts an end to human life as the “time open” to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ?
But I don’t agree with you that forgiveness happens in this age.
Although there is some overlap, these teachings on the whole seem to be fairly clear that forgiveness happens in the age to come– not our present life. So I don’t think it’s correct to say forgiveness happens in this age. I think it is correct to say that forgiveness happens in the age to come though.
Just to clarify, I’m not saying that all sins are forgiven in the age to come. Some sins are not forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come. But some sins are forgiven in this age– and some sins are forgiven in the age to come.
No you are not wrong. To use more specific Catholic terminology, Mortal sin will not be forgiven in the age to come because this is the sin that leads to death and to hell. No second chances at confessing mortal sin.
When Christ spoke of paradise, he spoke of the place known to the jews as Abraham’s busom. It is the same place Lazarus was called from and mentioned in the parable of the slave and master. Christian folklore says hades (as we would also call it) was abolished when Christ finished work on the cross. Supporting this is Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father AND that John the Revelator recorded saints/elders worshiping around the throne. The macabees introduced the idea of linear time. Christ didnt tell the criminal, well, I was perfect (and you weren’t), so I’ll see you in 6 months.
Again, I’m not tryng to be argumentative. I’m just trying to understand this better-- because I’m obviously not understanding something here.
But that’s what I was saying before.
Good point.
I thought this was a very good eye-opener as to how God refines and purifies us like silver.
I was not disagreeing with you, I was trying to clarify.phew
The post I responded to did not include the specifice words venial and mortal. You just said some.
My post was just to clarify yours to show others that in fact you are right, and using Catholic terminology, it could be the venial sins that are forgiven, but not the mortal.
And yup that is how it works. Purgatory is not a second chance after death to repent of mortal sins, like murder and such but can be a state of purification for sin that does not lead to death, venial sins.
From the CCC
1031The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
God Bless,
Maria