Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

apophasis · Jan 7, 2007

jmcrae said:
Purgatory isn’t a “detour” - it’s on the road to Heaven. Those who don’t become purified in this life will become purified in the next life - either that or they will go to Hell. That’s what is meant by “purgatory” - a place of purification.

It’s a detour in respect to Paul’s teaching about being absent from the body and being home with the Lord. A reality based on the cross.“When HE made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High” (Heb. 1:3b)It’s the blood of Christ that puifies men of all sins through faith in Him alone. And it’s in this grace in which the true believer stands (Rom. 5:1-2).

Mr.Ex_Nihilo · Jan 7, 2007

Montalban said:
Mr. Ex Nihilo has raised the issue of God being imperfect.

No. That’s a lie.

You really are either a very ignorant person or else you really are trying to twist my words to make them sound as if I’m saying that God is imperfect.

I’ve always mantained that God is perfect.

God is perfect regardless of what he does or does not do.

God is perfect regardless of what he can or cannot do.

God is perfect in all his holy ways because God always embodies perfection.

If you would have actually have read my posts here, you would’ve understood that this claim you are making is not true.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Very well said.

I think it could be summed up with Hebrews 10:13-15…

Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect

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forever those who are being made holy.

This indicates that we are in the process of being made holy by the one perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It does not indicate, however, that we are already perfect.

This is the same as 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 which states…

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes

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, the imperfect disappears.

Matthew 5:48 says to be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. But even the most conservative evangelicals understands that the better translation is be perfect-ed, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The later is in the process of perfecting in the former, even as the former is being perfected by the later-- generally indicating a process no different than that of the conclusion of Philippians 2:12-13, which says to continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

This is theosis by the way-- purgatory happens in both life and death.

That He needed to be satisfied.

I’ve already said that God was eternally pleased with Christ-- the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Montalban:

Any other Catholics agree with this?

Any other Catholics think that Montalban is really trying to twist our words around to mean something we didn’t actually intend?

Mr.Ex_Nihilo · Jan 7, 2007

Montalban:

You continue to avoid dealing with the evidence I present.

No. You continue to be determined to argue with me and absolutely refuse to listen to anything I offer to you so that you can understand this better.

Montalban:

You simply appeal that I just don’t understand Catholic teaching on this, then give me your opinion, which forgive me if I don’t simply submit to as being Catholic teaching.

Don’t you dare sit there and twist my words around and tell me that I explaining things as a heterodox Catholic.

Everything that I’ve explained to you…and I really do mean everything I’ve explained to you…you’ve totally twisted around with the specific intention of trying to make it as if the explanations I’ve given are wrong according to Catholic teachings.

That’s really ignorant and insulting.

Montalban:

Catholic teaching is clear. God is upset by us sinning.

The Scriptures repeatedly say that God is angry…but they also repeatedly say that God is loving too.

Montalban:

Whether He’s now content by Jesus’ sacrifice or not is beside the point.

What?!? That’s the whole point of this conversation man!!!

Jesus is the one who reconciled us back to God by the sacrifice he made on the cross. For example, Ephesians 2:13 says but now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Montalban:

Simply put, God was content, then He wasn’t. He changed. He’s therefore not perfect (becasuse God never changes).

God is perfect regardless of what he does or does not do.

God is perfect regardless of what he can or cannot do.

God is perfect in all his holy ways because God is perfect.

Montalban:

I’ve appealed to you to discuss what I’ve said, and you now reduce yourself to insults.

You’ve been insulting me all throughout this thread every time you claim that I’m speaking in heterodox terms about Catholic teachings on purgatory. And it’s a damnably ignorant tactic to use too.

And now you have the nerve to say that I’m being insulting?

I’ve been quite patient with your insults against us. I’m not being patient anymore though.

If you want to understand what we’re saying, then you have to stop using damnably ignorant tactics against us.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo · Jan 7, 2007

Montalban:

You complained that God must die. God, per se didn’t die, only man did.

Did God’s Spirit go down to the place of the dead or not?

God’s flesh died so that his Spirit could go down to the place of the dead.

But God’s Spirit cannot die-- and this is why death could not hold him.

Montalban:

Whether his dying (as man) saves our spirit or not is not the issue.

Yes. This most certainly is the issue. This is exactly what the issue is all about-- Christ dying on the cross that by his blood we may be cleansed of our sins whether in life or in death.

Montalban:

You argued against Catholic teachings on how He died.

What?!? No. I did not.

There’s not one sound Catholic apologist here who will deny that God’s Spirit descended to the place of the dead. It’s right there in the articles of the Apostle’s creed which talk about Jesus…

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended to the dead.

On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven, and is seated and the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Even if you don’t accept the Apostle’s creed, you still nonethless believe that God’s Spirit went to place of the dead in order to redeem our souls and bring us into heaven, don’t you?

Montalban:

If you can’t keep to an argument, you should try not to project such hostility onto others.

My apologies, but maggots feasting on rotten corpses have a better style and grace to their arguments than the ones you’ve been presenting against me.

Mr. Ex swats the flies away

As I said before, if you want to understand what we’re saying, then you have to stop using damnably ignorant tactics against us.

We’ve been allowing you to speak for yourself.

And yet you’ve never allowed us to speak for ourselves-- not even once. And you’ve even been going so far as to insult us the whole way through by claiming that our explanations are heterodox to the Catholic faith.

You really have some nerve.

Montalban:

In that post (you cited) you have modified your position.

No. You’re only now starting to understand what we’ve been trying to explain to you all along.

Montalban:

Then it’s not as conclusive evidence as you’d like to have made out when you first used it.

The reason why I said it was the only thing that could explain it is because theosis and purgatory are the same thing.

You, however, have simply never accepted anything that we’ve presented to you to explain this. Not one thing have you actually accepted from us. Even the quote from Augustine that I presented to you was used by you in an attempt to discredit our own explanations.

apophasis · Jan 7, 2007

MariaG said:
Purgatory is completely biblical as well as completely historical. I accept that you disagree. I find it sad that you are unwilling to believe the explanations from the Catechism, (at one time you wanted to see where one sins are forgiven by the blood, yet once shown this in the catechism, still would not admit to your error of misunderstanding.)

My question, Maria, is where in your catechism does it state that sins are purified by the blood of Christ IN PURGATORY. According to the CCC, Purgatory is about men themselves paying the price of the debt of so-called temporal punishments caused by sins. Accomplished by the torments* personally experienced* in the purgatorial fires. In my research of the CCC, it nowhere connects the blood of Christ with the fires of Purgatory. Christ paid the “eternal debt,” but men, themselves, must suffer the “temporal punishments” of venial sins still attached to them at death. A doctrine found nowhere in the Scriptures.

Why do Protestants reject the unique, RC doctrine of Purgatory? (1) Because God has revealed no such place or process for sins and (2) it is contrary to the cross of Christ.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo · Jan 7, 2007

Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
continued

Montalban:

That is the problem with your posts. You presented John Chrysostomon as a definitive support for purgatory. Now you admit he may not have been supporting purgatory, because he could just as easily be supporting something else.

I was trying to actually respect the beliefs that you presented Montalban-- respect them as a possible alternative. I’d never heard of toll houses before. But I was familiar with the Orthodox concept of theosis. And I’ve been trying to explain to you that purgatory and theosis are the same thing.

Montalban:

I continue to implore you to address the evidence regarding a hurt God. You simply repeat that Jesus healed that hurt; that God is now satisfied. None of that negates the fact this still makes God someone who changed, from being satisfied, to being unsatisfied.

sigh

I guess I really am wasting my time here.

Montalban:

That’s not what YOU said. You said God died. You were trying to argue that God does change.

This is just rambling on and on.

Actually, who cares? Do you really care about anything that I’ve offered you beyond whatever you scrutinize in order to find a ‘perceived fault’ in my argument?

You say that we have an incorrect fear of a God who scrutinizes our every action searching for something we’ve done wrong, but yet you scrutinize our every word searching for something we’ve said wrong.

Montalban:

We have no common ground on this. That’s the point. The Orthodox view is not the same as the Catholic view. Your own personal opinion otherwise does not make it so.

Like I said before, that’s because you don’t want it that way Montalban.

You don’t want to have a common ground with Catholics on this.

You would rather burn in your anger and spit and curse at the Catholic faith instead of actually making an effort to see where we’re coming from.

Even more so, you would just sit back feeling smug and justified that you can hold a grudge against the Catholic church for the crimes that we Catholics did against the Orthodox when we ransacked Constantinople for example.

No. You don’t really care about much of anything that we do, except hating us and trying to twist our explanations around so that you can have even more reasons to hate.

And, regardles of what we say, you’ll do your best to twist that around too-- so that you can have even more reasons to hate us.

Montalban, my brother in Christ, if you do not do what is right then sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must master it. I am praying that you master it and that it does not sift you like wheat. I’ll trust the Lord on this one.

MariaG · Jan 7, 2007

apophasis said:
My question, Maria, is where in your catechism does it state that sins are purified by the blood of Christ IN PURGATORY. According to the CCC, Purgatory is about men themselves paying the price of the debt of so-called temporal punishments caused by sins. Accomplished by the torments* personally experienced* in the purgatorial fires. In my research of the CCC, it nowhere connects the blood of Christ with the fires of Purgatory. Christ paid the “eternal debt,” but men, themselves, must suffer the “temporal punishments” of venial sins still attached to them at death. A doctrine found nowhere in the Scriptures.

Why do Protestants reject the unique, RC doctrine of Purgatory? (1) Because God has revealed no such place or process for sins and (2) it is contrary to the cross of Christ.

Just because it is not worded EXACTLY the way YOU want it or think it should be, does not mean it is not there.

FACT: We believe that it is possible for our sins to be forgiven through Christ’s sacrifice and His blood.

We also believe that we will be cleansed from all sin in/through a process called purgatory as if through fire.

Since the only way it is possible for our sins to be forgiven is because of His sacrifice, His blood, we believe we are cleansed through His blood.

john_ennis · Jan 7, 2007

apophasis said:
My question, Maria, is where in your catechism does it state that sins are purified by the blood of Christ IN PURGATORY. According to the CCC, Purgatory is about men themselves paying the price of the debt of so-called temporal punishments caused by sins. Accomplished by the torments* personally experienced* in the purgatorial fires. In my research of the CCC, it nowhere connects the blood of Christ with the fires of Purgatory. Christ paid the “eternal debt,” but men, themselves, must suffer the “temporal punishments” of venial sins still attached to them at death. A doctrine found nowhere in the Scriptures.

Why do Protestants reject the unique, RC doctrine of Purgatory? (1) Because God has revealed no such place or process for sins and (2) it is contrary to the cross of Christ.

The Catholic understanding of any and all suffering on the part of men, to the extent that it has any redemptive value, is that it can only have that saving quality because of Christ’s sacrifice.

“Apart from the Cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven” (618) is the background for everything relating to salvation, including our participation. “Christ’s sacrifice is the source of eternal salvation” (617). “The possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the Paschal mystery, is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to ‘take up [their] cross and follow [him].’”

And, as has been stated, we believe such suffering helps effect our salvation, as Paul says below.

So, though I know you don’t see us participating in his suffering, but you have to realize that, for any Catholic, the idea is understood that Christ’s sacrifice is the source of all saving Grace, even when comes to us via our own suffering (on earth or Purgatory). So when the Catechism refers to Purgatory, the assertion above that Christ’s sacrifice is the source of all savation is not suddenly abandoned. Can’t expect those three short paragraphs to recap what’s already been established regarding all salvific suffering.

That such Grace *can *come via our suffering, well…

“in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his Body, that is, the Church.” (2Cor12:9)

and “our light and momentary afflictions are obtaining for us a far greater and eternal glory.” 2Cor4:17

I’ve been a Catholic for quite a long time; I can assure you that I have never and will never hear from the Magesterium that the Church’s teaching on Purgatory–that wording in the Catechism–is meant to be understood as us gaining our salvation outside the saving blood of Christ.

Peace.
John

AlegreFe · Jan 7, 2007

I have seen your replies to me Montalban, and I meant to get back to them but with all of apophasis’ posts & replies, I almost forgot about yours. I didn’t mean to brush you off, so here are my replies to your posts.

Montalban said:
AlegreFe:

Doesn’t work for what?

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As a debating tool Neither does the following statement…

AlegreFe:

If you really knew about the Catholic Faith, you would’ve never left.

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Neither statement was meant to be a debating tool. Can you please not interpret what I wrote without asking me first if my statement was meant to be a debating tool or not? It was merely a statement and not meant to be a debating tool.

Montalban:

You’ve instantly dismissed anything I’ll ever say about Catholicism.

Not true. I don’t know why you would think that. I’ve re-read our posts and it seems you dismiss what I say.

Montalban:

Seems you wish not to discuss this matter

Again, not true. I have been discussing the matter.

AlegreFe · Jan 7, 2007

Montalban said:
AlegreFe:

What does that have to do with my post?

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You’re being dismissive about what other people say

If you are going to quote me, don’t use other people’s statements. How do you know what I’ve read? I have not read every single post in this thread. So there is no way that you can say that I am being dismissive about what other people say; how can I be if I haven’t read that particular conversation among other posters. That is why I was baffled about your statement. I had no idea what you were talking about. I’d be here all night if I actually read every single post in here. I try to read many of the posts in this thread but sometimes time does not allow me to read all posts. If I don’t have time, which is most of the time, I try to stay mainly with the replies to my posts. I do sometimes reply to other people’s posts that are not addressed to me as in a reply to my post, but lately I try to stick with certain posts only because of time constraints.

Montalban said:
AlegreFe:

God does not want us to suffer. We suffer because sin entered into this world. God did not choose our suffering. We did. God gave us the gift of His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for us. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to suffer for our sins.

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He just watches you like a hawk, waiting for you to stumble.

Are you saying this or are you saying that this is what Catholics would say?

Montalban said:
AlegreFe:

Suffering is not so much to satisfy God as it is to purify us. I myself would not want to see God with all my “dirt” on me. I would want to be purified before seeing my Almighty God. I want to see Jesus so bad but I would never want to see Him with dirt piled on me. This is something I would choose just in the same way that I would not want to go out to dinner with my husband all dirty. I would want to get cleaned up and where something nice to be with him on a special dinner date.

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You don’t need to suffer.

Yes we do need to suffer. That is part of our purification so that we can see God/Heaven.

Montalban said:
Ask God to forgive you, with a genuine heart

I always ask God to forgive me with a genuine heart. What makes you think that I don’t?

Montalban:

However your post doesn’t address any of the evidence I’ve presented regarding God needing satisfaction.

Are you saying that God needs satisfaction?

Montalban:

His mercy is that He forgives us.

Of course it is!

But His Mercy extends beyond that. And thank God for that, otherwise we’d be in Hell.

Pryority7 · Jan 7, 2007

apophasis said:
Sure there is. If there was a “detour” he could not have made that statement, or he would have taught and elaborated on that specific “detour” elsewhere in his Epistles - he did not. Nor does the text at all indicate Paul was expressing his own subjective “wish.” His statement is plainly didactic.I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Who said that Purgatory was a “detour”. It’s the beginning of Heaven, not a detour.

Of course you have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ll let everyone else on this thread laugh now…

Mr.Ex_Nihilo · Jan 7, 2007

AlegreFe said:
I have not read every single post in this thread.

I actually have taken the time to read through this entire thread twice. I may go through it a third time just to doublecheck a few things too.

deborahssong · Jan 8, 2007

eetings in the Lord!

Wow!!! what a debate…not sure if I like the tone however I have this to add. This is exactly the stuff that caused the reformation!!! Interpretation of scripture and rigid rules in the name of the catholic church!. Now let me share what I have studied. The first century church was NOT labeled a denomination. This only came into play when mere men didnt LIKE the teaching or interpretation on scripture. The early church, first JEWISH< then Gentile, was built and lived, upon the written word of God. Debating the purgatory issue …will that get us closer to heaven? Will that change our lives “here” ? Will that help us see Jesus? Let me share my own testimony…Revelation…says that “by the Blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony”…
I was raised catholic, come from a rich catholic pioneer history for the state in which I live. In 1984, out of hurt and woundedness I left the church. I never stepped foot in a catholic church again until…
During that time I truly had a personal encounter with Jesus! and my life has never been the same since! Ive been in ministry for 15 years, in another denomination, and now am branching out, led by the Holy Spirirt, in a new direction. Guess where I am? I am now a writer for the Charismatic Catholic renewal. I attend charismatic masses, and I absolutely believe in all of the word of God. I am living and walking by it. Daily led by the Holy Spirit. Do we still sin, absolutely but we no longer have to appease by sacrifice! Jesus IS the ultimate sacrifice and because of HIM I am now able to approach the throne of grace…to receive mercy and garce and help in time of need. Only the Blood of Jesus has made that possible. I am learning that offense can hold us back from all God has for us! My encounter with Jesus removed a pain from my heart that I had carried since I was six years old!!! a deep wound that no man could fix!
He(Jesus) didnt look to see if I was catholic first or protestant. He saw my heart … someone told me, He loved me and that He was waiting to help me with my life! and I “surrendered” to Him. How my life progressed in the Lord? By becoming a student of the word, learning how to apply it to my life …every day living. Oh my did my life improve…I had self esteem based on who I am in Christ, not the worlds! I found out what my God given gifts were and worked to serve Him in them. Now years later? I am ever amazed at the full circle He has brought me! Back in the catholic church. I am still slowly taking in and asking Gods peace about some of what I am learning, on the church’s interpretation. ! This is why we need Jesus! the Author and Finisher of our faith!
…an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in all of the denominations. Just like the one in the Book of Acts, is whats needed. I have been a part of several denominations and i am telling you this has to happen. What happened in Acts is for today! What Jesus did, in the gospel is for today! I have been received well, within the catholic church and given the opportunity to serve within, using the gifts that I used in the other church. The catholic church recognizes what God has done in me and is allowing me to be all God desires for me to be, right there in the church!
NOW…getting back to this debate…its not a big deal to me the interpretaion of purgatory, it is a big deal to me whether someone has made Jesus the Lord of their lives. yes in the catholic church. Traditions arent wrong unless they supercede the Word of God. . Find out for yourself and love Him and serve Him with all your heart! . Now that I am studying all about the church and much more of its history, there is a lot of false teaching out there about the church. Much I believe is because many times we catholic christians didnt wear our witness well! Jesus said you will know my children by the fruit they bear. Getting fallen down drunk at picnics, playing bingo and gambling away your household money, on church grounds, is not a good witness. The world condones that behavior, but according to scripture, and the vatican, its not a good witness from christians.
The Holy Spirit and His gifts are for allllll. So I say purgatory is not the issue…Do we love Jesus and serve Him…not because we’re born into it, but because “we” pursued Him and found Him!!! I did and I know that when I pass on, I am going to be with Jesus! YOu see when Jesus has raised someone from a life of emotional mess and a physical deathbed, there is no need of anything or anyone else…just Jesus, loving him and living according to His example while He was here. Father God is all I need or ever will need. His Son has made my approaching Him, possible!!! shalom dear brothers and sisters in Christ! Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut as I am learning much from you…We can most assuredly disagree without offending anyone. There is a way to do it all according to His word…Love… God Bless each of you…

Deborah

Montalban · Jan 8, 2007

Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
I actually have taken the time to read through this entire thread twice. I may go through it a third time just to doublecheck a few things too.

If only you wanted to go check Catholic sources, rather than this attempt at personal smear.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
In almost all these posts, Montalban has consistently claimed, in one way or another, that we simply do not understand our own Catholic teachings about purguatory. He has consistently attempted to present Catholic materials in an effort to trump our own explanations. And he has consistently repeated some variation of the same arguments over and over again, even when his misconceptions have been explained to him (in detail).

Actually that’s not true. You believe in consistantly repeating your own opinion is the same as me posting evidence.

You are yet to explain why God needed to be satisfied. All you’ve done is shifted this from God wants to be satisfied now, to God is now satisfied, thanks to Jesus’ sacrifice.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
Please note: The list of people who have responded to his allegations include…

Sixtus
MariaG
jmcrae
Pryority7
john ennis
Damascus
me (Mr. Ex Nihilo)
and yourself (AlegreFe)

And yet despite the combined witness of all eight people (all of whom are fellow Catholics in communion with the Holy Church and in agreement with each other), Montalban has consistenly claimed that we somehow or in some way apparently do not actually understand our own Catholic teachings on purgatory.

Again you see fit for emotive appeals. Rather than evidence you now go to vox populii.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
I’m not sure what else can be said here.

I’m sure you’ll think of something.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
Does Montalban seriously believe that all eight Catholics who have responded to him do not understand their own teachings on purgatory-- and that only he understands it well enough to explain it to all of us?

Another appeal to incredulity.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
…I’m simply at a loss for words as to the level that he will go to in order to claim the Catholic Church teaches something that we apparently do not actually believe in.

That is your argument “You just don’t understand us”.

Given that I’ve had to face people here who believe God died, which is not Catholic teaching, it’s simply amazing that you would cite such posters as experts.

The fact remains that in Catholic belief God has changed from being satisfied, to being one who needs satisfaction

Montalban · Jan 8, 2007

AlegreFe:

If you are going to quote me, don’t use other people’s statements. How do you know what I’ve read? I have not read every single post in this thread. So there is no way that you can say that I am being dismissive about what other people say; how can I be if I haven’t read that particular conversation among other posters. That is why I was baffled about your statement. I had no idea what you were talking about. I’d be here all night if I actually read every single post in here. I try to read many of the posts in this thread but sometimes time does not allow me to read all posts. If I don’t have time, which is most of the time, I try to stay mainly with the replies to my posts. I do sometimes reply to other people’s posts that are not addressed to me as in a reply to my post, but lately I try to stick with certain posts only because of time constraints.

You are indeed baffled.

You said post #594

AlegreFe:

Oh my goodness. I had to take a break from this particular thread. It seems the non-Catholic Christians here don’t actually want to learn from anything we post in here. So I had to just take a breather.

(emphasis added)

You have dismissed what people have said; putting it down to ‘us’ (non-Catholics) as simply not wishing to learn from ‘you’ (Catholics). You have instantly written-off anything said by ‘we’ (non-Catholics) as nothing but stubbornness/intransigence/recalcitrance.

Without dealing with anything specific said, I might add. I used your statement.

AlegreFe:

Are you saying this or are you saying that this is what Catholics would say?

That’s what I was taught. But then this has already been dismissed by you (Catholics) as ‘imperfect knowledge’. Recall the statement that if I’d understood Catholicity properly I’d never have left.

In short for the most part there’s a huge amount of posturing from your side (see the post above where Mr. Ex Nihilo rouses the troops together in an emotive plea for help with a rallying-cry of indignation… all without actually addressing what I raised.

AlegreFe:

Are you saying that God needs satisfaction?

I quoted numerous Catholic sources that say you (Catholics) say this.
Thanks to Mr Ex Nihilo for highlighting these for me…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1772037&postcount=480

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1775173&postcount=512

et al.

These are the very things he has avoided dealing with, excepting to change where God was satisfied. He himself used that language.

See post #605
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

When the Scriptures say that God was pleased with his Son, this means that God was satisfied with the sacrifice his Son made for us.

AlegreFe:

Of course it is!
But His Mercy extends beyond that. And thank God for that, otherwise we’d be in Hell.

Then why have purgatory? Why doesn’t God forgive those sins too right away?

Montalban · Jan 8, 2007

Pryority7 said:
Who said that Purgatory was a “detour”. It’s the beginning of Heaven, not a detour.

As it’s a different place from heaven, it’s not the beginning. One could just as easily (using your criteria), argue ‘death’ itself is the beginning of heaven.

Pryority7 said:
Of course you have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ll let everyone else on this thread laugh now…

Again this rude and dismissive posturing. You’re not the first Catholic on this thread to sail close to the wind.

There’s so much appeal to emotion. Here there’s an attempt to make a dichotomy between ‘we’ who understand and ‘he’ who doesn’t. It’s an appeal to others to be part of the team less they too be ridiculed. In school we call that bullying. You draw a distinction between one group and another and invite others to join you in keeping this distinction.

Mr.Ex_Nihilo · Jan 8, 2007

Montalban said:
The fact remains that in Catholic belief God has changed from being satisfied, to being one who needs satisfaction

No. In Catholic belief, we see a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, paradoxically standing in the center of the throne, just as Revelation 5:6 states.

In Catholic beleif, we sing with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” – just as Revelation 5:12 states.

In Catholic belief, we see the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world, just as Revelation 13:8 states.

In Catholic belief, we know that God chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight, just as Ephesians 1:4 states.

In Catholic belief, we realize that his work has been finished since the creation of the world, just as Hebrews 4:4 states.

In Catholic belief, we know that Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake, just as 1 Peter 1:20 states.

In Catholic belief, we understand that the creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. We also understand that the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God, just as Romans 8:19-21 states.

In Catholic belief, we understand that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. We also know that by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

In Catholic belief, we know that he is before all things, and in him all things hold together-- and he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

In Catholic belief, we know that God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

In Catholic belief, we all see the supremacy of Christ throughout all creation, just as Colossians 1:15-20 states.

In Catholic belief, we know that he who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe, just as Ephesians 4:10 states.

In Catholic belief we know that God has already accomplished everything that he ever did, is doing, or is going to do, right from the cross. Harking right back to the Seventh Day of Creation when God “rested from his work”, his words in John 19:30 just prior to his death at Calvalry cries out throughout all of creation, past, present and future…

It is finished!

Mr.Ex_Nihilo · Jan 8, 2007

Montalban said:
Then why have purgatory? Why doesn’t God forgive those sins too right away?

Then why have anything?

Why have a sacrament of penance for example?

Why not just go with the OSAS crowd and say that we don’t have to do anything because God has already forgiven us?

AlegreFe · Jan 8, 2007

Thanks to Mr. Ex Nihilo I can personally answer this one. I had not seen this one. I’m a very busy Home School mom who hasn’t been feeling too well lately. I’ve spent New Year’s Eve in the Emergency Room but that’s another story of which you (Montalban) certainly don’t need to hear and probably don’t care to hear.

Montalban said:
And Catholics believe that you’ve got to keep giving God ‘satisfaction’ for sinning, even though God could never want for anything

…emphasis from AlegreFe

God could never NEED for anything. But He created us and He does want our Love. God said Himself that He was a jealous God. Do you recall that one? ¿Sí o No? Should I start conversing in Spanish for you? Or do you understand English? You do know what jealous means right? Dios es un Dios celoso.

All that aside… since you think everyone has time to read every single post in here does this mean that you’ve read every post in here? Just in case you haven’t you can read from post number 608 to 611. And even if you have read those posts then just humor me and read them again please.

They are not responses directly to you but I state how God does want “fruits of our labor” to show proof of our repentance. To us Catholics, that is doing penance for our sins.

When a Catholic goes to Confession and confesses their sins

*]they are given the absolution by Jesus Christ. Jesus is just physically hidden by the flesh of the Priest. But I can assure you, the Priest is standing in Persona Christi. (“Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I have done for your sakes, in the person of Christ.” 2Cor 2:10)
*]After the absolution we are forgiven for our sins.
*]Then we do our Penance. That penance is done in satisfaction and/or proof of our repentance. The penance has nothing to do with actually being forgiven for our sins, Jesus has already forgiven us.

Our sins leave our souls with a blemish, so to speak, even after forgiveness. That blemish has to disappear completely before we see the Beatific Vision. The penance that we do in satisfaction for our repentance removes that blemish. So the more penance you do here on earth the less time in Purgatory you will spend.

As far as “time” in Purgatory, there is no direct teaching on that. But what is to say how much time or whether “time” in Purgatory is “time” as we think here on earth? We don’t know this. We don’t even know if this is an actual place. When Catholics speak of Purgatory as a “place” we are not actually saying that it is an actual place. That word is just used for sake of conversation.

more in next post…

AlegreFe · Jan 8, 2007

…cont.

Purgatory (either after death or while still alive on earth) is thought of more of a process that makes us more like God. We are to be perfect as God is perfect. We are to live Holy lives as we are called to be Saints (capital “S” in Heaven). We are saints here on earth (small “s”) but that is not to say that we’ve already achieved Holiness. Our call to Holiness ends in Heaven with the Beatific Vision.

7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss
for the sake of Christ.
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because
of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus
my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss
of all things and count them as rubbish, in order
that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness
of my own that comes from the law, but that which
comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness
from God that depends on faith–
10 that I may know him and the power of his
resurrection, and may share his sufferings,
becoming like him in his death,
11 that by any means possible I may attain the
resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained this
or am already perfect, but I press on to
make it my own, because Christ Jesus
has made me his own.
13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made
it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what
lies behind and straining forward to
what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize
of the upward call of God in Christ
Jesus.
15 Let those of us who are mature think this way,
and if in anything you think otherwise, God will
reveal that also to you.
16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.
Phil 3:7-16 (ESV)

I don’t know if I’ve made myself clear to your satisfaction Montalban. If not, then just ask and you shall receive; another response from me that is.

Sorry I could only get to one of those links for now. I shall connect to the other links another time. I have to go now

… love all of you!

Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

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