Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[JoeyWarren]

Yes, it was a pretty good explanation given by Sixtus. However, the purging comes WHEN we see God. Revelation teaches that God will wipe away every tear from their eyes and that there will be no more pain and no more sin for the former things have passed away. Whatever needs to be wiped away will be done WHEN we see God. So this means that I still don’t agree with the idea of purgatory.

That verse tells us what is going happen after the new earth and a new heaven. What happens now when you die?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

That verse tells us what is going happen after the new earth and a new heaven. What happens now when you die?

I will be present with the Lord.

So since that verse is talking about what happens after the new earth and new heaven, where do you guys get purgatory from?

 

[believers]

1. I really have my doubts every Christian will be without sin before they die, in fact I’d say most all of them will not be completely free of all sin.
2. In the Protestant position of forensic/imputed justification (if you are affirming that position) one isn’t actually made holy, but merely viewed as holy in the eyes of God; He seeing Christ’s covering of your sins. Covering a dung hill of sin with pure snow doesn’t make the dunghill pure, it is still there and Rev 21:27 says no uclean thing shall enter heaven.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one (ADAM)[judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (JESUS)[the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are we saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How do we obtain faith?

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How are we justified?

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[catholicgirl333]

No. We don’t believe in a Monster God like that…that is what some Calvinists believe…not biblical, and not logical.

P7

Our all-loving God wouldn’t and doesn’t do this, but this conclusion could be drawn from arguments that reject free will. It would seem that if we don’t have any participation in our salvation (i.e. we don’t even have to freely accept the gifts of grace given to us by God, echoing Mary’s Fiat), but Hell exists, then it is either empty, or people were made and not saved. I don’t get it.

 

[believers]

Yes, they have salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. They don’t go to Hell. They go to Heaven.

By the way, I quoted

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[jmcrae]

By the way, I quoted

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

It says that they are being sanctified; not that they have already been sanctified. Sanctification takes a really long time; it’s not instantaneous. Most of us will not be finished yet, when we die. Also “deeds of the law” aren’t the only deeds there are. Jesus makes it very clear in Matthew 25 that we have to be ready to obey Him in all things.

 

[believers]

It says that they are being sanctified; not that they have already been sanctified. Sanctification takes a really long time; it’s not instantaneous. Most of us will not be finished yet, when we die. Also “deeds of the law” aren’t the only deeds there are. Jesus makes it very clear in Matthew 25 that we have to be ready to obey Him in all things.

No it doesn’t. It says “salvation through sanctification”. It does not say being sanctified.

 

[AlegreFe]

Bishopite:

Is every born again Christian fully and completely sanctified at the moment of their death?

Yes.

So you are a perfect saint who never sins and never thinks about any kind of sin at all, ever?

There is no way that you can say you are Sanctified at the moment of your death. If you’ve sinned and haven’t repented of your sin then you cannot say that you are Sanctified at the moment of your death. Anything can happen and you don’t know when you will die. So if you do something against God’s commandments and haven’t repented and you get hit by a truck and instantly die, you cannot be Sanctified at the moment of your death, unless you had time to tell God you’re sorry but that still doesn’t take care of all your effects of sin or wounds from your sins. You still have to be purified before seeing God as nothing unclean can enter into Heaven.

 

[MariaG]

Yes, it was a pretty good explanation given by Sixtus. However, the purging comes WHEN we see God. Revelation teaches that God will wipe away every tear from their eyes and that there will be no more pain and no more sin for the former things have passed away. Whatever needs to be wiped away will be done WHEN we see God. So this means that I still don’t agree with the idea of purgatory.

Respectfully, which point of our teaching of purgatory do you disagree with 1, 2 or 3?

From How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants by James Akin
In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I will be present with the Lord.

So since that verse is talking about what happens after the new earth and new heaven, where do you guys get purgatory from?

Scripture .

Where do you get the idea that even though you sin now, you won’t when you stand before God?

Bet your answer would be scripture:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Bishopite]

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one (ADAM)[judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (JESUS)[the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are we saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How do we obtain faith?

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How are we justified?

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

These verses in Romans don’t say anything about being completely sanctified, do they?

All you are showing is how man is justified.

 

[believers]

So you are a perfect saint who never sins and never thinks about any kind of sin at all, ever?

There is no way that you can say you are Sanctified at the moment of your death. If you’ve sinned and haven’t repented of your sin then you cannot say that you are Sanctified at the moment of your death. Anything can happen and you don’t know when you will die. So if you do something against God’s commandments and haven’t repented and you get hit by a truck and instantly die, you cannot be Sanctified at the moment of your death, unless you had time to tell God you’re sorry but that still doesn’t take care of all your effects of sin or wounds from your sins. You still have to be purified before seeing God as nothing unclean can enter into Heaven.

Then prove your claim with scripture.

 

[MrS]

Yes, it was a pretty good explanation given by Sixtus. However, the purging comes WHEN we see God. Revelation teaches that God will wipe away every tear from their eyes and that there will be no more pain and no more sin for the former things have passed away. Whatever needs to be wiped away will be done WHEN we see God. So this means that I still don’t agree with the idea of purgatory.

you almost have it!!!

We will all die, certainly… and we will stand before the Judge (individual judgment). At that point we know for certain our destiny… hell for eternity, or heaven for eternity.

Then the sentence will be carried out. Hell will be immediate and final.

Those who have any clinging to material things (all of us to some degree because only Mary was Full of Grace)… cannot enter heaven unless we are perfectly “clean”. If all our sins are evaporated just by seeing the Judge(Jesus Himself, the Son of God, the Son of Mary)… no one would be in hell.

God loves us the way we are… but He loves us too much to let us stay that way. We are the problem… thank God for His mercy of purgatory.

.

 

[MrS]

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are we saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Would you please satisfy my own personal desire by quoting this part of Scripture with the addition of verses 10, 11 etc.

And then perhaps hightlight “grace”.

The Catholic 2000yr teaching… We are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, working in LOVE.

Even Jesus Himself says the greatest of these is LOVE.

Love equals Charity equals good works)

 

[Bishopite]

Then prove your claim with scripture.

First of all, you prove from Scripture that a person is competely sanctified?

Sanctified means being made holy, that is Protestant theology on sanctification.

Heb 12:14— “Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Rev 21:27— “but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

If Rev 21:27 says…no unclean thing shall enter heaven…and you aren’t completely sanctified at the moment of your death, then obviously there has to be something between death and glory that purges your sins away, and God does this through His love…
1 Cor 3:12-15-- "If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."
Notice in these verses that the person is…

1. Judged by their works and the works of straw, hay or wood(personal works) will be burned up, yet those works of gold, silver and precious stones (the works we do under Gods grace) won’t be burned up.
2. Saved but will suffer lose. So the person is “saved” but will suffer lose as through fire. That person is saved but will suffer lose because they didn’t fully, and completely repent from all of their sin and did works that are also going to be burned up through fire.

1 John 1:8-10–“If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
**If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. **If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

Have you fully and competely acknowleged and repented from all of your sins? Again, are you fully sanctified?

 

[jmcrae]

No it doesn’t. It says “salvation through sanctification”. It does not say being sanctified.

We are being sanctified, and when the process of sanctification has been completed, we will be saved. Nobody in this life is “already” saved. It’s a process whose end we won’t see until after we die.

Anybody, even the most holy person, can backslide during this life. Anybody, even the most holy person, can reject God during this life - I’ve seen it happen over and over again.

The famous atheist, Charles Templeton, used to be even more famous than Billy Graham for evangelism and travelling revival meetings - he was the one who taught Graham how to do this kind of ministry. His witness converted hundreds of people. But then something happened, and he lost his faith, and he rejected God. It can happen to absolutely anyone. We are not guaranteed of Heaven on this side of the veil. We have to persevere, and we have to become sanctified. As long as that process is going on, we are being saved, but we have the free choice at any moment to change our minds. Nothing is guaranteed until the actual Judgement Day itself.

 

[believers]

First of all, you prove from Scripture that a person is competely sanctified?

Sanctified means being made holy, that is Protestant theology on sanctification.

Heb 12:14— “Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Rev 21:27— “but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

If Rev 21:27 says…no unclean thing shall enter heaven…and you aren’t completely sanctified at the moment of your death, then obviously there has to be something between death and glory that purges your sins away, and God does this through His love…
1 Cor 3:12-15-- "If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."
Notice in these verses that the person is…

1. Judged by their works and the works of straw, hay or wood(personal works) will be burned up, yet those works of gold, silver and precious stones (the works we do under Gods grace) won’t be burned up.
2. Saved but will suffer lose. So the person is “saved” but will suffer lose as through fire. That person is saved but will suffer lose because they didn’t fully, and completely repent from all of their sin and did works that are also going to be burned up through fire.

1 John 1:8-10–“If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
**If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. **If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

Have you fully and competely acknowleged and repented from all of your sins? Again, are you fully sanctified?

Your teaching has made you believe that you obtain sanctification by “full and complete acknowledgement and repentance from all sins.” THAT IS THE LAW OF MOSES.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Word of God says that we obtain sanctification of the Spirit by the BELIEF of the truth.

Jhn 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

Jhn 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free

Jhn 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jhn 17:19
And FOR THEIR SAKES I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2Th 2:13 salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

 

[Bishopite]

Your teaching has made you believe that you obtain sanctification by “full and complete acknowledgement and repentance from all sins.” THAT IS THE LAW OF MOSES.

Nope your are inccorect. Sanctification is a process in Protestant theology, save those who are antinomians (anti moral law of Christ). The law of Moses is trying to be justified by observing the Jewish cerimonial law of Moses; that’s what “works of law” mean. It means to obey the Torah i.e, circumcision, observing Jewish diatary laws, observing the Jewish Saturday legalistic Sabbath day. That is what is the law of Moses. Catholicism doesn’t observe those and neither do Protestants. You do sound as though you are an antinomianistic,are you?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Word of God says that we obtain sanctification of the Spirit by the BELIEF of the truth.

 

[Bishopite]

believers;1826492]Your teaching has made you believe that you obtain sanctification by “full and complete acknowledgement and repentance from all sins.” THAT IS THE LAW OF MOSES.

Nope your are inccorect. Sanctification is a process in Protestant theology, save those who are antinomians (anti moral law of Christ). The law of Moses is trying to be justified by observing the Jewish cerimonial law of Moses; that’s what “works of law” mean. It means to obey the Torah i.e, circumcision, observing Jewish diatary laws, observing the Jewish Saturday legalistic Sabbath day. That is what is the law of Moses. Catholicism doesn’t observe those and neither do Protestants. You do sound as though you are an antinomianistic,are you?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Right that’s what I just proved about one observing the cerimonian Jewish laws, but we still have to observe the moral law of Christ, do we not??

The Word of God says that we obtain sanctification of the Spirit by the BELIEF of the truth.

And what does “belief” mean? It means to do NOT just to say you have faith but also to DO what you say you believe, James 2:22-24.

Of course we obtain sanctification by belief of the Spirit, but you are being way over simplistic. Obtaining sanctification is a process of being made holy, this is Protestant theology and this is proof of what they teach in regard to sanctification…

"Jesus tells us in John 17:16-19 that we have a practical progressive sanctification of our present life by the application of the truth of God’s Word.

The word “sanctify” in verse seventeen means “to consecrate, or to set apart persons or things to God” (Ex. 28:41; 29:1, 36; 40:13; 1 Thess. 5:23, etc).

The Holy Spirit uses the Word to do His work within the believer. Let’s distinguish between the sanctification by the Holy Spirit within us at the beginning of God’s work of salvation in our souls, and the everyday application of God’s word in the Christian’s life. We are in the need of daily sanctification by the truth of God’s Word. This is a **progressive work that will go on in our lives until we are presented perfect in Christ at His second coming. **

**Sanctification is not the eradication of our sinful nature, or of the “old man” in a once and for all experience. **

However, God takes His Word, not human speculation or opinions, and sets us apart from the world to Himself. We are set apart for God’s special use. Therefore, our values, goals and behaviors are distinct from the world’s.

The Word of God sanctifies us as we study, meditate, memorize and apply its truths to our daily life. The Holy Spirit uses it to make us aware of sin, confess it and repent. He takes the Word and reveals God’s perfect will for our lives. We grow in His grace through the knowledge of His truth. **As we yield in obedience to His truth we are sanctified by the truth. **

Jesus prayed to His Father, “For this sake I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth” (John 17:19). Jesus was already set apart to God. Indeed, He was sinless. However, the night before His death on the cross He was dedicating Himself** “that they too may be truly sanctified.”** Literally, He said, “sanctified in truth.” Jesus’ death eternally **separated believers to God and His kingdom, and God’s truth is the means of their daily sanctification. **

“Sanctify them in truth; Your Word is truth” (v. 17). Just as Jesus was set apart for special use, so are the believers. “The truth” is communicated in the “Word.” As we hear the Word, we comprehend the truth and obey it. This changes our values, our lifestyle, and a behavioral change takes place. We are changed in our everyday practice.

As we daily appropriate God’s Word we are sanctified by it. We are set apart to God and changed in the way we live so that we bring honor and glory to the Father."

abideinchrist.com/selah/feb3.html

Notice how the Protestant writer says "as we yield to His truth in obedience we are sanctified by the truth"

Sanctification is a process of obedience to the truth not a punctiliar only, one-time act.

Go ahead, check it out…it’s a Protestant site. I could easily get more.

Do you believe that you still sin?

 

[believers]

Nope your are inccorect. Sanctification is a process in Protestant theology, save those who are antinomians (anti moral law of Christ). The law of Moses is trying to be justified by observing the Jewish cerimonial law of Moses; that’s what “works of law” mean. It means to obey the Torah i.e, circumcision, observing Jewish diatary laws, observing the Jewish Saturday legalistic Sabbath day. That is what is the law of Moses. Catholicism doesn’t observe those and neither do Protestants. You do sound as though you are an antinomianistic,are you?

Right that’s what I just proved about one observing the cerimonian Jewish laws, but we still have to observe the moral law of Christ, do we not??

And what does “belief” mean? It means to do NOT just to say you have faith but also to DO what you say you believe, James 2:22-24.

Of course we obtain sanctification by belief of the Spirit, but you are being way over simplistic. Obtaining sanctification is a process of being made holy, this is Protestant theology and this is proof of what they teach in regard to sanctification…

abideinchrist.com/selah/feb3.html

Notice how the Protestant writer says "as we yield to His truth in obedience we are sanctified by the truth"

Sanctification is a process of obedience to the truth not a punctiliar only, one-time act.

Go ahead, check it out…it’s a Protestant site. I could easily get more.

Do you believe that you still sin?

It’s amazing how you read my posts and think they’re my words. I’m quoting directly from scripture. So, if you have a problem with what scripture says, then you’ll have to take it up with God.