Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[shawn34_a]

Oooh don’t even talk to us Catholics about the book of Revelations. Any good Catholic that knows the Mass inside out, backwards and forwards and knows what the Mass means, could tell you all about Revelations! :yup:

Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper

REVELATION AND THE HOLY MASS

Heaven On Earth: The Liturgy of the Eucharist

Dr. Edward Sri’s The Mass: Heaven on Earth

I’m not going through the litany of things, but I’ll start with a few.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.

The actual Lord’s Day is Friday evening to Saturday evening.
Matthew 28:1-4
1Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone £from the door, and sat on it. 3His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

Should I continue. The Church changed it’s Sabbath following the resurrection of Jesus. Notice how Jesus maintained the Sabbath himself. Based on Jewish calender, what day did he rise? Saturday evening to Sunday evening, not the Lord’s Day.

 

[shawn34_a]

Oooh don’t even talk to us Catholics about the book of Revelations. Any good Catholic that knows the Mass inside out, backwards and forwards and knows what the Mass means, could tell you all about Revelations! :yup:

Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper

REVELATION AND THE HOLY MASS

Heaven On Earth: The Liturgy of the Eucharist

Dr. Edward Sri’s The Mass: Heaven on Earth

Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.

How many candles are there. Does you church have 7 candles representing the seven churches? Point being, Protestant church have candles too. I’m Catholic, but I find your defense of this ridiculous. If the Catholic Church is not going to build a tabernacle exact to that which is in heaven, let’s not hold of Christian religions in judgment.

Have you’ve reconciled the verses with what they are saying.

Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev 7:3
3saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Rev 14:1
1Then I looked, and behold, £a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand,
Rev 22:4
4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.

The Protestants have crosses too, just not crucifixes. There justification of the cross makes just as much sense as the Catholic justification for the crucifix. In the above verses, are you referencing the cross as He? I suppose you are.

 

[Sixtus]

Originally Posted by Sixtus
If the Lord makes demand on my soul this very night, I will say 'Lord, let me go first to a place and prepare myself.

Which verse is it exactly?

It isn’t a verse, it is a FACT!

I have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. But I am still a sinner. Though my sins have been forgiven, I still have the propensity to sin. I am weak. My mind ‘knows’ sin. I judge myself therefore unworthy to stand before my God,

Therefore it is my desire that before I am able to meet Him, I need go and prepare myself, so that I am truely worthy of the meeting my Lord.

Don’t worry, no jailer is necessary, I will not leave until my conscience is satisfied the last penny has been paid.

My conscience is the best jailer.

 

[shawn34_a]

It isn’t a verse, it is a FACT!

I have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. But I am still a sinner. Though my sins have been forgiven, I still have the propensity to sin. I am weak. My mind ‘knows’ sin. I judge myself therefore unworthy to stand before my God,

Therefore it is my desire that before I am able to meet Him, I need go and prepare myself, so that I am truely worthy of the meeting my Lord.

Don’t worry, no jailer is necessary, I will not leave until my conscience is satisfied the last penny has been paid.

My conscience is the best jailer.

Don’t say fact for you are not the judge. Only one person knows if our name is already written in the Book of Life. You not that person and neither am I. The reason why I asked was that that seem some what of a paraphrase of John 14:3 and that does not pertain to purgatory.

 

[brkn1]

It isn’t a verse, it is a FACT!

I have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. But I am still a sinner. Though my sins have been forgiven, I still have the propensity to sin. I am weak. My mind ‘knows’ sin. I judge myself therefore unworthy to stand before my God,

Therefore it is my desire that before I am able to meet Him, I need go and prepare myself, so that I am truely worthy of the meeting my Lord.

Don’t worry, no jailer is necessary, I will not leave until my conscience is satisfied the last penny has been paid.

My conscience is the best jailer.

There is only one Being that is truly Worthy. I expect to fall on my face powerless recognizing my unworthiness the way Daniel and John did before the Lord. If I can later stand, it will probably only be after the Lord touches me and tells me to stand. There is no preparation that I know of outside of my faith in what my Saviour did for me that could satisfy my conscience. I do not expect to be a sinner before God because of my having presently accepted the Lamb’s cleansing and covering blood for all of my sins, but I know that, in Heaven, I will always be a redeemed soul who once was a sinner.

 

[shawn34_a]

Don’t say fact for you are not the judge. Only one person knows if our name is already written in the Book of Life. You not that person and neither am I. The reason why I asked was that that seem some what of a paraphrase of John 14:3 and that does not pertain to purgatory.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Don’t you recite during the Eucharist, “Lord I am not worthy to receive you, only say the word and I shall be healed.”?

If this is the case and you believe the scripture, don’t be so quick to think your salvation is a certainty. It would be nice for everyone to be saved. The reality though is that that is not the case. Don’t forget that we must humble ourselves like that of a child.

 

[Sixtus]

Which leads me to return by asking the question this thread started with:

Why do Protestants object to Pergatory when it is a Biblical concept. It was also believed by the Jews of Jesus day. Purgatory was not created by the CC but inherited from it’s earliest roots of Judaism.

There is no evidence that the Lord refuted this teaching. So why do Protestants not accept it?

Why ever not? There is more evidence for purgatory than a ‘second Church’ so why do you not believe?

 

[shawn34_a]

Which leads me to return by asking the question this thread started with:

Why ever not? There is more evidence for purgatory than a ‘second Church’ so why do you not believe?

That is so far from the truth. Each verse that the Catholic Church uses to substantiate purgatory are weak at best. Most are taken out of context. Take the verses and read them in proper context (verses before and after the passages) and you’ll probably agree. Their best arguement is made off of 2 maccabees and that’s it. This just happens to only be in Catholic Bibles. The book is apparently very questionable. Of the 7 Bibles I have, none have it. I ordered a Jerusalem and Tyndale Bible, but have not received them yet.

But please list the verses so we can once again clear up the issue.

 

[MrS]

But please list the verses so we can once again clear up the issue.

Please list your religious affiliation so we can clear up the issue.

 

[shawn34_a]

Please list your religious affiliation so we can clear up the issue.

I’m Catholic. But I don’t accept things just because the church says so. I don’t believe in blind faith. The antichrist is counting on that in the end times.

I was initially baptized baptist in 1987 (I think). I hardly practiced and rarely went to church. I was biblically illiterate. It wasn’t until 2000 that I attended church regularly. I started RCIA in 2000 and converted in 2001.

 

[Bishopite]

I’m Catholic. But I don’t accept things just because the church says so. I don’t believe in blind faith. The antichrist is counting on that in the end times.

I was initially baptized baptist in 1987 (I think). I hardly practiced and rarely went to church. I was biblically illiterate. It wasn’t until 2000 that I attended church regularly. I started RCIA in 2000 and converted in 2001.

When you say the Nicene creed at Mass and say “we [you] believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church” you really aren’t believing nor accepting what you say you are?
Christ established one church Mt 16:19 and it speaks for Christ as Jesus said in Luke 10:16 says…“he who hears you hears Me”…
To diliberately dissent from the Church Jesus established is a mortal sin and playing with your soul. Please by the grace of Jesus, study what the Catholic Church really teaches and why and you will find truth and peace.

And I’m curious, what teachings of the Catholic church don’t you accept?

p.s. Catholicism accepts that there will be an anti-Christ but doesn’t accept the rapture, it’s a theogical novum.

May I recommend a great book that you would love. It’s about end times but in a Catholic perspective called Fr. Elijiah by Michael Obrien. It’s a great read.

 

[brkn1]

I have come across another Catholic website that uses Jesus’ parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) to prove the existence of Purgatory.
Perhaps I could convince some who agree with this parable’s application to Purgatory to reconsider using it for that purpose.

The premise is that both the Rich Man and Lazarus are in “a third state that exists after death” which is neither Heaven nor Hell.
The Rich Man is claimed to most likely be in the torture part of Purgatory, since he was praying or interceding for his brothers. The argument is that: “This is an act of charity of which the damned are incapable.”
The argument falls apart if you carefully study the context of the parable and what both the Rich Man and Abraham said to each other.
The Rich Man is actually trying to blame God for not adequately warning him about “this place of torment”. Abraham curtly tells the Rich Man that he was more than adequately warned by Moses and the prophets.
The Rich Man further proves that he is forever condemned when he says that his brothers “will repent” if one rose from the dead. The Rich Man would not have indicated the need to “repent” if he had done so himself. Without repentance before death, he was forever doomed. See John the Baptist.

Look at verse 26 of Luke 16, and try to find anything hopeful said by Abraham. The Rich Man is not yet in the Lake of Fire, but he must be in that “holding place of torment” prior to it, which is Hell, not Purgatory.

 

[shawn34_a]

When you say the Nicene creed at Mass and say “we [you] believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church” you really aren’t believing nor accepting what you say you are?
Christ established one church Mt 16:19 and it speaks for Christ as Jesus said in Luke 10:16 says…“he who hears you hears Me”…
To diliberately dissent from the Church Jesus established is a mortal sin and playing with your soul. Please by the grace of Jesus, study what the Catholic Church really teaches and why and you will find truth and peace.

And I’m curious, what teachings of the Catholic church don’t you accept?

p.s. Catholicism accepts that there will be an anti-Christ but doesn’t accept the rapture, it’s a theogical novum.

May I recommend a great book that you would love. It’s about end times but in a Catholic perspective called Fr. Elijiah by Michael Obrien. It’s a great read.

The nicene creed verse your pertaining to “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.” Notice that neither catholic or apostilic is capitalized. This is straight out of Celebrating the Mass. With it lower cased, it changes the whole meaning of catholic. Here it just represents universal, not the denomination. Check your books and you’ll probably find it the same way. In the programs handed out before mass, it’s the same way, lower case “c”. We believe in one Church that is Christ. The one Church that Christ built his foundation, which in the NT, is what we should all strive to following. “He who hears you, hears me,” that’s true providing that they are preaching the Word of God.

A big arguement regarding the apostilic succession is that Jesus built his foundation on Peter. The arguement being is that the foundation was the NT. Once the NT was established, was there to be an apostilic succession. Jesus empowered his disciples (I covered in a previous post, most make reference at the beginning of Pauls epistles to what was bestowed upon them), not anyone else.

I’d love to read the book. If you have the ISBN that would be great. If not, I’ll look it up and read it. I’m definitely open to listening to all person’s perspectives.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Please stay on track, if you have other topics to discuss, please do so in another thread.

Thanks, and God bless!

Rachel

 

[Pryority7]

The nicene creed verse your pertaining to “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.” Notice that neither catholic or apostilic is capitalized. This is straight out of Celebrating the Mass. With it lower cased, it changes the whole meaning of catholic. Here it just represents universal, not the denomination. Check your books and you’ll probably find it the same way. In the programs handed out before mass, it’s the same way, lower case “c”. We believe in one Church that is Christ. The one Church that Christ built his foundation, which in the NT, is what we should all strive to following. “He who hears you, hears me,” that’s true providing that they are preaching the Word of God.

A big arguement regarding the apostilic succession is that Jesus built his foundation on Peter. The arguement being is that the foundation was the NT. Once the NT was established, was there to be an apostilic succession. Jesus empowered his disciples (I covered in a previous post, most make reference at the beginning of Pauls epistles to what was bestowed upon them), not anyone else.

I’d love to read the book. If you have the ISBN that would be great. If not, I’ll look it up and read it. I’m definitely open to listening to all person’s perspectives.

Shawn, you remind me so much of me when I was starting my Catholic journey. I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture…the whole 7 year trib, the Anti-Christ taking power in the Third Temple…I bought the whole thing thanks to Hal Lindsey. As time went on, I learned more about my faith. I did’n’t believe in Purgatory either for the same reasons you don’t. I still don’t believe in the Purgatory you THINK we believe in because you’re right…there is no second chance after death. That’s why I believe in the Purgatory that the Church actually teaches as opposed to what people THINK it teaches. I’m at peace with all that now, and now that I have learned about the 19th century beginnings of the Rapture and the 7 year tribulation scheme, well, I believe that these ideas are man made. Yes, there will be a time of trial, yes there will be an Antichrist, but not in the scheme that the dispensationalists claim it to be…do your research dude…and open your mind, otherwise you’ll be sounding like Apo…
“I don’t know what you’re talking about”…

Peace
P7

 

[jmcrae]

Look at verse 26 of Luke 16, and try to find anything hopeful said by Abraham. The Rich Man is not yet in the Lake of Fire, but he must be in that “holding place of torment” prior to it, which is Hell, not Purgatory.

It’s not the rich man who is in a “third place” - it is Lazarus. Lazarus was in the “bosom of Abraham” which is the Limbo of the Fathers.

Jesus’ audience was perfectly well aware that Heaven was not open for human beings; it did not become opened to human beings until after Christ’s own resurrection.

In any case, the only thing we can prove from that parable is that there are more places than just Heaven, Hell, and the earth - we can therefore say that Purgatory is possible, but it didn’t exist yet when Jesus was telling that parable - it could not have come into existence until after it became possible for human beings to go to Heaven, which was after Christ’s resurrection.

 

[shawn34_a]

Shawn, you remind me so much of me when I was starting my Catholic journey. I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture…the whole 7 year trib, the Anti-Christ taking power in the Third Temple…I bought the whole thing thanks to Hal Lindsey. As time went on, I learned more about my faith. I did’n’t believe in Purgatory either for the same reasons you don’t. I still don’t believe in the Purgatory you THINK we believe in because you’re right…there is no second chance after death. That’s why I believe in the Purgatory that the Church actually teaches as opposed to what people THINK it teaches. I’m at peace with all that now, and now that I have learned about the 19th century beginnings of the Rapture and the 7 year tribulation scheme, well, I believe that these ideas are man made. Yes, there will be a time of trial, yes there will be an Antichrist, but not in the scheme that the dispensationalists claim it to be…do your research dude…and open your mind, otherwise you’ll be sounding like Apo…
“I don’t know what you’re talking about”…

Peace
P7

Let me start off by saying “I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE!” I’ve said that many Catholics do believe in it for they do not think that they will experience the tribulation if it happens in our life time.

Second Point - The tribulation only lasts 3 1/2 weeks. In Daniels 70th week (week of years), it is mid through the week that the abomination desolation occurs. The 70th week begins with the signing of the Covenant that authorizes the rebuilding of the temple on the Temple Mount.

You believe that the revelations thing is man made? Self-fulfilling prophecy I suppose you mean. If not, then you don’t believe in the Gospel of Matthews, Matthews 24 specifically. How about Corinthians, Thessalonians, Luke, Mark, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel, and even Genesis? Should I continue? All make mention to the end times in a consistent fashion.
Jesus said (Rev 1:3) Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
We should also know the signs of the time. Take the parable of the fig tree.

It’s up to you to believe what you want to believe. It’s your salvation. But to say that this scripture is man made, is to deny the very Word of God.

Why do you think so much scripture is placed before us? So that we may be saved. We see the Word of God happening before our eyes.

The more and more time in reflection about purgatory, I wonder if it is not the work of Satan himself. It provides people with a false sense of security in their works here in that we can continue to slip up and everything will be alright through this sanctification process. I’m not saying it’s a license for unGodly behavior, but why not then if it’s Satan’s work.
I would think that this concept would be more of a Protestant teaching, but it isn’t. The reason I say that is that they believe that through faith alone we are saved, not of works. This obviously is far from the truth and a gross misunderstanding of eph 2:8-9 (they fail to notice the “;” there). The works we perform in this temporal life equate to the rewards that we are storing up in our eternal life.
Point is that there is no strong evidence of purgatory, but tons of evidence to the contrary. It’s your choice to believe what you want.

 

[Pryority7]

Let me start off by saying “I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE!” I’ve said that many Catholics do believe in it for they do not think that they will experience the tribulation if it happens in our life time.

I don’t know any Catholics who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I don’t know where you’re getting this from.

For somebody who doesn’t believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, you sure are retaining some of the beliefs of dispensationalism. Do you believe that the Church is God’s side project after the death of Christ and the 70 weeks clock will resume when Antichrist signs the treaty?

You believe that the revelations thing is man made? Self-fulfilling prophecy I suppose you mean. If not, then you don’t believe in the Gospel of Matthews, Matthews 24 specifically. How about Corinthians, Thessalonians, Luke, Mark, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel, and even Genesis? Should I continue? All make mention to the end times in a consistent fashion.
Jesus said (Rev 1:3) Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
We should also know the signs of the time. Take the parable of the fig tree.

It’s up to you to believe what you want to believe. It’s your salvation. But to say that this scripture is man made, is to deny the very Word of God.

I didn’t say scripture was man made. I said that the idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture was Man made. Scripture is clear about the Second Coming of Christ. We all as brothers and sisters in the Lord wait for His coming and his Appearing in the clouds.

Why do you think so much scripture is placed before us? So that we may be saved. We see the Word of God happening before our eyes.

The more and more time in reflection about purgatory, I wonder if it is not the work of Satan himself. It provides people with a false sense of security in their works here in that we can continue to slip up and everything will be alright through this sanctification process. I’m not saying it’s a license for unGodly behavior, but why not then if it’s Satan’s work.
I would think that this concept would be more of a Protestant teaching, but it isn’t. The reason I say that is that they believe that through faith alone we are saved, not of works. This obviously is far from the truth and a gross misunderstanding of eph 2:8-9 (they fail to notice the “;” there). The works we perform in this temporal life equate to the rewards that we are storing up in our eternal life.
Point is that there is no strong evidence of purgatory, but tons of evidence to the contrary. It’s your choice to believe what you want.

Well, that’s my point. Purgatory is not a “salvation by works” doctrine. It is God’s grace and only God’s grace that gets us through our suffering in this life and it is finished up as we are going to Heaven. This “as we are going to Heaven” is Purgatory. It’s the beginning of Heaven, not some psuedo-concentration camp for sinners who need to make up for their sins because the Cross wasn’t enough. You need to unlearn what you have learned regaring Purgatory. Purgatory is for the saved only. No us earning anything. It’s God cleaning us from the presence of the sin that has stained our souls most of our lives. That part of us that is corrupted is being removed. We are being cleansed of it, thus the term “Purgatory”…to “purge” God is ALREADY doing it now in us…it’s just going to finally finish up in us when we go to be with Him. Does this make any kind of sense dude? Am I still not being clear?

P7

[/QUOTE]

 

[JoeyWarren]

Pryority7 said: I don’t know any Catholics who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I don’t know where you’re getting this from.

unfortunately I do know Catholics that do believe. And those Catholics started believing in it by being enticed by their Protestant friends to read the “Left Behind” series.

I think it is more prevalent here in the south then in the north.

 

[Bishopite]

shawn34_a;1844045]The nicene creed verse your pertaining to “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.” Notice that neither catholic or apostilic is capitalized. This is straight out of Celebrating the Mass. With it lower cased, it changes the whole meaning of catholic. Here it just represents universal, not the denomination.

The moderator wants us to stay on track so I will answer your questions but we should get back to purgatory or move to another thread.

Catholic means universal for where else is there a universal church, one having the same liturgy and dogma?
The Catholic church is NOT a denomination; that falls within Protestantism. This is what Catholic means
catholic.com/library/What_Catholic_Means.asp

“Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes: “As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general.’ . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–1).”
Here is the link for that book…
powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=72-0826452523-0

I have that book too.

Check your books and you’ll probably find it the same way. In the programs handed out before mass, it’s the same way, lower case “c”.

I wouldn’t rely on program books to explain the official teaching of the Catholic Church. In the Apostles creed, “the holy catholic church”, sanctam ecclesiam catholicam, means one Church;universal in liturgy and dogma.

We believe in one Church that is Christ. The one Church that Christ built his foundation, which in the NT, is what we should all strive to following. “He who hears you, hears me,” that’s true providing that they are preaching the Word of God.

When you say “preaching the Word of God” what do you mean by that?

A big arguement regarding the apostilic succession is that Jesus built his foundation on Peter. The arguement being is that the foundation was the NT. Once the NT was established, was there to be an apostilic succession. Jesus empowered his disciples (I covered in a previous post, most make reference at the beginning of Pauls epistles to what was bestowed upon them), not anyone else.

All scholars agree the Church came first then the NT Scriptures were written later.
You aren’t clear here do you believe in Apostolic succession or not?

I’d love to read the book. If you have the ISBN that would be great. If not, I’ll look it up and read it. I’m definitely open to listening to all person’s perspectives.

Here is a link to Fr. Elijiah by Michael Obrien…
ignatiusinsight.com/authors/michaelobrien.asp