Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Atreyu]

Not just one but several posters have pointed out that the justification for such a doctrine is scripturally very weak or non-existent–one has to bring the notion of such a concept to the Scriptures to tease-out any plausible support whatever for such a doctrine. Moreover, the doctrine appears to suggest that the atoning and sanctifying work of Christ is incomplete, that there remains some portion of salvation or sanctification which remains for the individual believer to accomplish–giving to human beings something of which they could boast. The Reformational understanding of the matter is that both salvation and sanctification are all of Christ and none of man, that Christ has done all on our behalf that is needful to make us perfect in Him.

Maybe your difference in definition of the word “grace” leads you to the erroneous (possible) conclusion that the atoning and sanctifying work of Christ is incomplete if we need to have a concept of Purgatory. But you must know that this is not the Catholic teaching, right? Whenever sin is forgiven in an individual, it is forgiven by the work of Christ on the cross: whether it be in Purgatory or in the Confessional or anywhere else. Even if there needs to be some action on the part of the penitent in order for this forgiveness to come about, the penitent is only able to partake in these actions due to the grace of God.

This can be a good thread, if the Catholics here remember that we do not need to prove Purgatory, we only need to show that it is a reasonable teaching. Actually, I think that is true for all Catholic apologetics…

 

[Atreyu]

What did the Early Church Fathers have to say about purgatory? Anything?

Try this. Most Protestants’ favourite ECF - Augustine of Hippo - is quite explicit about it. Some others also mention it in that link.

 

[flameburns623]

. . . Whenever sin is forgiven in an individual, it is forgiven by the work of Christ on the cross: whether it be in Purgatory or in the Confessional or anywhere else. Even if there needs to be some action on the part of the penitent in order for this forgiveness to come about, the penitent *is only able to partake in these actions due to the grace of God . . . *

The Christian faith teaches that there is NOTHING that a person can do to bring about forgiveness. Suffering, in Purgatory or anywhere else, does not make God more forgiving or more willing to forgive. Even the sense of penitence is a gift of the grace of God: the wicked are seldom sorry for their sins but glory in them to their own destruction. It is grace that brings us to a knowledge of our sinfulness and to Godly sorrow for our sins.

 

[SORROWS]

It is precisely Gods mercy that allows us to have Purgatory to expiate our sins that we committed on earth that were never “purged”.

As humans and our free will, our sins push us away from our Loving Saviour Jesus Christ. It is impossible to say it brings us closer.

Although we know that Christs greatest sacrifice was to die for us on the Cross, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in Heaven Rev 21:27

Our souls could never be perfect enough to enter Heaven. Unless you are a Saint of the calibre of St. Frances or St. Therese, taking the humble approach and opening our eyes to the sins we commit every day whether venial or mortal, we will go through purgation.

It is Christs love and sacrifice for us that we are given this chance “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the last farthing” Luke 12:59

 

[Atreyu]

The Christian faith teaches that there is NOTHING that a person can do to bring about forgiveness.

Then why is not everyone saved? I would assume the answer to this is that a person must have faith to be saved. Well there you go, a person therefore must do something in order for their sins to be forgiven. I would also respond by saying that there is nothing that a person can do apart from the grace of God that can bring about forgiveness. Our own flesh and blood is a useless tool to bring about forgiveness. Our sins are forgiven by the sacrifice of Christ, but we must cooperate with the grace of God in order for our sins to be forgiven. This is the Catholic teaching (as I understand it, someone correct me if I have it wrong).

Suffering, in Purgatory or anywhere else, does not make God more forgiving or more willing to forgive.

Of course not. But it prepares us for Heaven. We must be perfect before we enter Heaven, and Purgatory is a gift from God that will make us perfect.

 

[Syele]

Of course not. But it prepares us for Heaven. We must be perfect before we enter Heaven, and Purgatory is a gift from God that will make us perfect.

But this is the point of Difference. Protestants believe that were already Justified in the eyes of God at teh time we became saved. If yoau already have something, Why get it again?

I do understand why Catholics belive in Purgatory, but do you see why Protestant’s don’t?

Our beliefs about other things (Justification, salvation) each lead to different logical conclusions.

 

[jmcrae]

Someone on this Forum expressed it very well earlier today -

Christ’s work was finished on the Cross, and that’s when ours began.

Christ’s work on the Cross makes it possible for human beings to go to Heaven, but it does not make it easy.

We still have to repent of our sins and be washed clean of them in Baptism - Christ was absolutely explicit about that when He said, “Except a man be born again in WATER and the SPIRIT, he cannot be saved.”

And we still have to become the kind of people who don’t commit sin. Sinners cannot go to Heaven; that’s why we have to be completely sanctified in the Blood of the Cross before we go there.

If the process of sanctification has not been completed at the moment of death (and as long as we are not in the state of mortal sin), then it will continue in Purgatory until it has been, and then we will enter into Heaven.

 

[flameburns623]

Then why is not everyone saved? I would assume the answer to this is that a person must have faith to be saved. Well there you go, a person therefore must do something in order for their sins to be forgiven.

You are mistaken again: one must be given faith in order to have it: faith itself is a gift of God and is not of ourselves. Everyone is not saved because no one deserves to be saved. The wonder of grace is that God saves some though He is under no obligation to save any, and though there is no virtue nor merit in any of us that earns us the ‘right’ to be saved.

I would also respond by saying that there is nothing that a person can do apart from the grace of God that can bring about forgiveness. Our own flesh and blood is a useless tool to bring about forgiveness. Our sins are forgiven by the sacrifice of Christ, but we must cooperate with the grace of God in order for our sins to be forgiven. This is the Catholic teaching (as I understand it, someone correct me if I have it wrong).

It may be the Roman Catholic teaching but it is not the teaching of the Christian faith nor of Scripture. Scripture teaches that humans are incapable of cooperating with the grace of God. It is God who saves us, not we who in any way save ourselves.

. . .We must be perfect before we enter Heaven, and Purgatory is a gift from God that will make us perfect.

It is impossible for us to be perfect. Christ was perfect on our behalf and we enter Heaven only if we are covered by His righteousness.

 

[jmcrae]

It is impossible for us to be perfect. Christ was perfect on our behalf and we enter Heaven only if we are covered by His righteousness.

Can God tell lies, or be self-deceived?

When we get to Heaven, we will not be disguised as perfect people - we will be perfect people. If we have not become perfect while here on this earth, then we will be perfected in the cleansing fires of Purgatory.

PS: Christ commands us to be perfect. If it were impossible for us to become perfect, then Christ would not have uttered this commandment, since He knows our nature, and knows what is possible for us to do. He cannot command us to do the impossible, while also saying that only those who obey all of His commandments truly love Him.

 

[flameburns623]

Someone on this Forum expressed it very well earlier today -

Christ’s work was finished on the Cross, and that’s when ours began.

Someone on this forum is a Pelagian and no Christian at all. The entire rest of your post, with all due respect, is unorthodox even by the standards of Roman Catholic theology. I think you mean well and that you probably don’t understand the heretical implications of the way you are wording what you’re trying to say; but you are basically saying the same thing that the Book of Mormon says in Second Nephi: “It is by grace ye are saved, after all you can do”. And that is pure Galatianism, pure Pelagianism.

Christ’s work on the Cross makes it possible for human beings to go to Heaven, but it does not make it easy.

We still have to repent of our sins and be washed clean of them in Baptism - Christ was absolutely explicit about that when He said, “Except a man be born again in WATER and the SPIRIT, he cannot be saved.”

And we still have to become the kind of people who don’t commit sin. Sinners cannot go to Heaven; that’s why we have to be completely sanctified in the Blood of the Cross before we go there.

If the process of sanctification has not been completed at the moment of death (and as long as we are not in the state of mortal sin), then it will continue in Purgatory until it has been, and then we will enter into Heaven.

As I say: all of that, taken at bare face value, is Pelagianism and not even orthodox Roman Catholic theology.

 

[flameburns623]

. . . When we get to Heaven, we will not be disguised as perfect people - we will be perfect people . . .

Actually, Luther’s vivid if somewhat distasteful illustration of what we will be in Heaven is that we will be as snow-covered dung.

Christ did not issue a command to be perfect. He laid down a standard that He knew to be impossible for humans to meet, in order that they would abandon their efforts at self-sanctification and know that their reliance could ever and only be in His own atoning, sanctifying Work.

 

[Sixtus]

So what Flameburns is telling me is that when I sin, I am forgiven in Christ, even before I say sorry.

What if I don’t say sorry, am I still forgiven?

Am I thus free to do what I want, as whatever I do, is cancelled out by Christ.

Thus, I am free to sin as I choose. It does not really matter, Christ cancelled the debt. I am forgiven as soon as I sin. Therefore, I am always righteous, even when I am unrighteous

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, Luther’s vivid if somewhat distasteful illustration of what we will be in Heaven is that we will be as snow-covered dung.

I have no idea who first said that, but it is completely false. Any “dung” we have will have been burned away in Purgatory.

Christ did not issue a command to be perfect.

Yes, He did. A quick key-word search of the Gospels reveals that He specifically commanded us to be perfect at least four times.

Matthew 5:48​

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21​

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 6:40​

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

John 17:23​

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He laid down a standard that He knew to be impossible for humans to meet, in order that they would abandon their efforts at self-sanctification and know that their reliance could ever and only be in His own atoning, sanctifying Work.

All sanctifying grace comes from the Cross. But we have the choice whether to follow the Way of the Cross, or not. Jesus told us it would be difficult - but He did not ever say, “Because this is difficult, it isn’t actually required. Just read the Four Spiritual Laws and say the Sinner’s Prayer, and it’s all good - all this stuff about ‘pick up your cross and follow Me’ was just talk.”

 

[Syele]

So what Flameburns is telling me is that when I sin, I am forgiven in Christ, even before I say sorry.

What if I don’t say sorry, am I still forgiven?

Am I thus free to do what I want, as whatever I do, is cancelled out by Christ.

Thus, I am free to sin as I choose. It does not really matter, Christ cancelled the debt. I am forgiven as soon as I sin. Therefore, I am always righteous, even when I am unrighteous

What you are Describing is not Calvinism but Antinomianism. *Calvinism Holds that *God is in control of the Christian, so God wouldn’t have them sin in the first place. There is no being unrighteous. If you are being unrighteous then you likely aren’t saved. This is very different than Antinomianism.

 

[Sixtus]

Being forgiven of my sins is not the same as putting right the damage my sins have done, to both my relationship with God and my relationship with my own Spirit, which is God in me.

Even though I am grateful to Christ for cancelling the debt, I recongise that there is that in me which is not worthy of the beatific vision. The damage I have done.

Fortunately for me [being mere human] my mind and brain cannot comprehend the seriousness of offending themagnificent glorified holy and pure omnipotent Being of the Blessed Trinity.

I accept the offering of my Lord on the Cross. But, before I enter the beatific vision, I have already condemned myself as totally unworthy and I shall remain so, until the damage I have done, that remaining from the forgiveness of my sins, is purged.

This I see as rightful judgement and a continuation of the forgiveness ministry of Christ on the Cross. I cannot comprehend the Holiness of God. I know that until I can, until I am worthy of it, I will not behold the beatific vision.

 

[Syele]

You are only human, nothing you can ever do *anywhere *will be able to undo the sins you committed. They already happened and they are offensive to God. He may forgive you but you cannot undo them or “put them right”. Because of this, it is infinately better to not commit them in the first place.

 

[Sixtus]

Anything less, is arrogance

 

[flameburns623]

So what Flameburns is telling me is that when I sin, I am forgiven in Christ, even before I say sorry.

What if I don’t say sorry, am I still forgiven?

Am I thus free to do what I want, as whatever I do, is cancelled out by Christ.

Thus, I am free to sin as I choose. It does not really matter, Christ cancelled the debt. I am forgiven as soon as I sin. Therefore, I am always righteous, even when I am unrighteous

If you are saved, you are already forgiven of all the sins you have ever or will ever commit. Part of the evidence that your are saved is that you will be sorry for your sins when you commit them. You will recognize when you have sinned and repent of your sins. Part also of the evidence of your salvation is that you will know that sin is not your master; you will know yourself to be bound under grace and not free to live as you want. You will ever be seeking to live the life of Christ in you.

jmcrae:

But we have the choice whether to follow the Way of the Cross, or not.

That is the crux of the error of Catholic Molinism and Protestant Arminianism: we do NOT have a choice to follow the cross. We have not chosen Christ, if indeed we are saved. He has chosen us; He has redeemed us; He has sanctified us.

A quick key-word search of the Gospels reveals that He specifically commanded us to be perfect at least four times.

I am aware of the passages you cited. We have a disagreement about Christ’s purpose in issuing those statements. As I have already explained, I believe that Christ’s purpose in saying those things was to distinguish between Law–which kills because no one can live by it–and Gospel–which gives life because it comes from Christ, the Author of Life.

Any “dung” we have will have been burned away in Purgatory.

The thread asks Protestants to explain why we object to Purgatory. I am providing such an explanation. I am not attacking your beliefs, though of course this is one of the major issues which divide the Protestant movement from Catholicism. You understand, I hope, why in my theology purgatory is neither necessary nor desirable: I am not trusting in my own righteousness, my own suffering, or my own innate goodness to redeem me from every vestige of sin. Rather, I am trusting in the finished and complete work of Jesus Christ. Obviously, you and I disagree on how the merits of His atonement work in the life of Christians.

 

[ribozyme]

Perhaps because the Bible doesn’t support it and implicitly denies its existence.

Heb. 1:3 "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

But the point of my comment was that while accepting the sacrifice of Christ was all embracing, there is usually something in every human being that is not worthy of God.

It is that which the Scriptures, the blessed apostles of the Lord and the Lord’s OWN teaching which says must be cleansed before a person can enter into the beatific vision. Jesus said ‘nothing defiled can enter heaven’ and ‘no man is without sin’. So He is either saying ‘no one goes to heaven’ or there is some process by which a person can be purified.

Allowing for Luthers view on Maccabee’s, St’s Paul, Peter, Timothy, Clement, Linus, Cletus, Mark, Luke and Matthew all agreed in and wrote about the ‘forgiving of sins’ and ‘purification’ and ‘atonement’ in the next life before a person enters Heaven.

Surely they cant all be wrong and the Protestants be right?

John at the end of his gospel argues that ‘nothing must be added to the sacred teachings’. So why did Luther add by dismissing the concept of Purgatory which is clearly evidenced throughout the New Testament by about every writer in there?

Because Purgatory is “not founded upon any sure warranty of Scripture”. If anything, it looks very much as though it implies rejection of the all-sufficient work of Christ.​

It is not suggested that the Scripture is wrong - it is implied, not unjustifiably, that Rome’s interpretation of Scripture is wrong; which is something quite different. That this should happen, is inconceivable only if one assumes that the Church is infallible; & the Reformers did not believe this.

Can Abraham be right in following the call of God to leave Ur of the Chaldees ? Both Ur & Haran were centres of the cult of the moon-god. The logic of the argument from numbers & from tradition requires Abram to stay with the moon-adoring majority of his former neighbours, who had adored the moon for centuries. It requires the few apostles to forget their infatuation with their recently-crucified leader & to attend to the “tradition of the elders” instead, & to return to their old ways, which are the tested, revealed, & true ones.

IOW - those two arguments prove too much. And they miss the point. What matters is **not **tradition or numbers, but obedience to the call of God in faith. And that relativises all religious commitments in which numbers & tradition play a part: they may be wrong, or need reform.

We might understand why our Protestant brethren in Christ reject Purgatory if we read their books - their creeds, their spiritual writers, their theologians, their men (& women ) of prayer. Reading only our own stuff won’t show us their reasoning. Reading what Father X says about Luther or Calvin or Zwingli, or what Apologist Y says about salvation by grace alone or Luther’s understanding of predestination, is no substitute for reading the “Institutes”, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the teaching of the Synod of Dort, Jeremy Taylor, William Law, or Samuel Rutherford - let alone more recent writers. We have the Spanish mystics - they have the Puritans. We honour various missionary saints - they honour men such as David Brainerd or John Wesley or David Livingston. We have the 22 Martyrs of Uganda - Anglicans include their Anglican fellow-martyrs, and Bishop James Hannington.

Protestant Christianity cannot be understood by being ignored. ##