Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

[nonsumd]

We understand the claim that you dont worship Mary and Saints and Dulia/Latria hair splitting. But the practice certainly does not look like asking one saint to pray for you as you would a living, breathing friend.

kaycee, I think you have exposed the key difference between Catholic and Protestant thinking on this issue.

Protestants appear to believe that Mary and the saints simply because they have passed from this world are no longer alive.

In fact, being in the presence of God, beholding the Beatific Vision, are they not more alive than anyone still in this world?

Scripture speaks of our being surrounded by a “great cloud of witnesses,” does it not? Is it not referring primarily to the souls of the saved, to the saints? Is it not then*** unbiblical ***to distinguish between asking a “living, breathing friend” to pray for us and asking a saint to pray for us?

I am a cradle Catholic and was educated in Catholic schools right through to college. Though I was taught many ways to honor Mary and to seek her intercession, I was never taught to worship Mary. My teachers never distinguished “worship due to God” from “worship due to Mary” – they never applied the word “worship” to our relationship to Mary.

To recognize Mary and the saints as models for holiness, for guidance on how to conform ourselves to God’s will, is the best way to preserve ourselves from making a god in our own image, to our own specifications. I think that is a real danger in the “just me and God” mindset.

Of course, I know that not all Protestants by far succumb to this temptation just as I recognize that many Protestants understand what Bonhoeffer was talking about when he criticized the seeking of “cheap grace” – my hat off to the poster who mentioned that – we Catholics have our own version of “cheap grace,” but that’s for another thread).

 

[justasking4]

This quote has to be one of the most amazing things I’ve ever read. Jesus Christ did establish the Catholic Church. That does not make him responsible for other people’s sin. The Church is a divine institution but it is also a human institution. Maybe you should look into what the Catholic Church actually says about itself instead of throwing around half-baked ideas and falsehoods. You would do well to do some more reading rather than repeating 400 year old accusations.

ChadS

You may want to go back and see what i was responding to. It was said that Christ and the church are one and the same. If that is the case then all kinds of absurd conclusions would follow.

 

[MariaG]

You may want to go back and see what i was responding to. It was said that Christ and the church are one and the same. If that is the case then all kinds of absurd conclusions would follow.

Those “absurd conclusions” have been around since the time of the apostles, the communion of Saints.

Christ made no distinction between the members of His Church who were being persecuted and Himself. Do you understand this better than Christ as recorded in scripture?

What do you think Christ meant when He asked Saul, why are you persecuting me? Who was Saul persecuting? How do you interpret this scripture and come to the conclusion that Christ is Not the Church?

 

[MariaG]

How do you know there is no time in purgatory? Certainly the church in the past thought so.

We don’t.

But the point is neither does the Church.

The POPULAR thought and theory in the past includes “time” in purgatory.

The official teaching of purgatory has does not include any mention of time at all and never has.

There is a difference between theories propogated by people in the Church, and doctrine of the Church.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What do you think Christ meant when He asked Saul, why are you persecuting me? Who was Saul persecuting? How do you interpret this scripture and come to the conclusion that Christ is Not the Church?

This has to be one of the very best quotes I have seen on this forum, and I am waiting with bated breath for JustAsking to address this.

 

[justasking4]

Tantum ergo;2681381]
Quote:
What do you think Christ meant when He asked Saul, why are you persecuting me? Who was Saul persecuting? How do you interpret this scripture and come to the conclusion that Christ is Not the Church?

This has to be one of the very best quotes I have seen on this forum, and I am waiting with bated breath for JustAsking to address this.

What this is referring to is Christians being in union with Christ. Notice that Jesus did not say “Why do you persecute My church”. We also can similar sayings in the gospels in Matthew 25:40. Should we take this to mean that when Jesus identifies Himself with His followers that His followers are actually Jesus Himself?
If Christ is the church as i understand the quote above, then it follows that it was Jesus who was involved in the inquisition and various other acts of evil in the catholic church to.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2681355]Those “absurd conclusions” have been around since the time of the apostles, the communion of Saints.

Christ made no distinction between the members of His Church who were being persecuted and Himself. Do you understand this better than Christ as recorded in scripture?

Think about what you are claiming here and the implications. If there is no distinction between the members of His church and Himself then this means that Jesus Himself is responsible for evil since the members of the church do evil. This is what follows from your premise.

What do you think Christ meant when He asked Saul, why are you persecuting me? Who was Saul persecuting? How do you interpret this scripture and come to the conclusion that Christ is Not the Church?

I responded to this above.

 

[po18guy]

You may want to go back and see what i was responding to. It was said that Christ and the church are one and the same. If that is the case then all kinds of absurd conclusions would follow.

I began typing, but had to give up. Prayer must take over when reason fails.

Christ’s peace.

 

[estesbob]

I began typing, but had to give up. Prayer must take over when reason fails.

Christ’s peace.

He is correct about people reaching all sorts of absurd conclusions-pretty much everything he has posted to this thread proves that.

 

[Teflon93]

Think about what you are claiming here and the implications. If there is no distinction between the members of His church and Himself then this means that Jesus Himself is responsible for evil since the members of the church do evil. This is what follows from your premise.

Only if Christ teaches sin through his Church, which he does not.

 

[justasking4]

Only if Christ teaches sin through his Church, which he does not.

Its not just about teachings but about actions. If Jesus is the same as the church this means He was part of the priest scadal for example.

 

[estesbob]

Its not just about teachings but about actions.** If Jesus is the same as the church this means He was part of the priest scadal for example**.

Why? It appears you are confusing the “Church” with those who belong to the Church. The bolded part of your post is another example of the absurd conclusions you mentioned.

 

[po18guy]

What this is referring to is Christians being in union with Christ. Notice that Jesus did not say “Why do you persecute My church”. We also can similar sayings in the gospels in Matthew 25:40. Should we take this to mean that when Jesus identifies Himself with His followers that His followers are actually Jesus Himself?
If Christ is the church as i understand the quote above, then it follows that it was Jesus who was involved in the inquisition and various other acts of evil in the catholic church to.

There is no charitble answer to such repetitious misunderstanding.

I’m praying for you.

 

[MariaG]

What this is referring to is Christians being in union with Christ. Notice that Jesus did not say “Why do you persecute My church”. We also can similar sayings in the gospels in Matthew 25:40. Should we take this to mean that when Jesus identifies Himself with His followers that His followers are actually Jesus Himself?
If Christ is the church as i understand the quote above, then it follows that it was Jesus who was involved in the inquisition and various other acts of evil in the catholic church to.

No, it does not.

You are not seeing this in the spiritual realm but seem to be stuck in the physical.

And you still have not explained your understanding of what Christ meant when He said Why are you persecuting me. Who was Saul persecuting and why did Jesus say you are persecuting me?

You wish me to believe my interpretation is incorrect but have not provided your intepretation

Think about what you are claiming here and the implications. If there is no distinction between the members of His church and Himself then this means that Jesus Himself is responsible for evil since the members of the church do evil. This is what follows from your premise.

I responded to this above.

There are differences, but there is also a greater link than you understand. Again, you seem to be stuck in a physical realm of this rather that the spiritual.

 

[Teflon93]

Its not just about teachings but about actions. If Jesus is the same as the church this means He was part of the priest scadal for example.

No, when we sin we place ourselves outside the body of Christ. See the Catechism on mortal sin and its impact on communion.

 

[justasking4]

No, when we sin we place ourselves outside the body of Christ. See the Catechism on mortal sin and its impact on communion.

Does this mean Christ is only present in a catholic when they are without sin or just venial sin?

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2681842]No, it does not.

You are not seeing this in the spiritual realm but seem to be stuck in the physical.

A person made the claim that the church and Christ are the same. It was supported i think with Acts 9:5. If this is true then certain things will follow either good or bad.

And you still have not explained your understanding of what Christ meant when He said Why are you persecuting me. Who was Saul persecuting and why did Jesus say you are persecuting me?

You wish me to believe my interpretation is incorrect but have not provided your intepretation

I have already in another post.

There are differences, but there is also a greater link than you understand. Again, you seem to be stuck in a physical realm of this rather that the spiritual.

I don’t think so. This union in Christ that we have is of a spiritual nature and can be difficult to grasp. It does not mean identical though. If it does, then there is no getting around the idea that Christ is responsible for evil because the church has done evil.

 

[Teflon93]

Does this mean Christ is only present in a catholic when they are without sin or just venial sin?

Neither.

It means we are not in communion with Christ when we are in sin.

Venial sins may be forgiven in Mass; mortal sins are forgiven in the Confessional.

This is why we begin Mass with a general confession.

 

[Ferdy_000]

Its not just about teachings but about actions. If Jesus is the same as the church this means He was part of the priest scadal for example.

I’ve got news for you sir…we all are sinners and as I recall that’s why Jesus died for us on the Cross. He took all of our sins upon Him , past and present and even future sins. He has always taught us to repent and to sin no more, and has passed this on through the Church’s teachings .

 

[MariaG]

A person made the claim that the church and Christ are the same. It was supported i think with Acts 9:5. If this is true then certain things will follow either good or bad.

.

According to your interpretation of a doctrine that you don’t even agree with.

I have already in another post.

Which one? Or just explain again? And was this since I asked the question or previously?

I don’t think so. This union in Christ that we have is of a spiritual nature and can be difficult to grasp. It does not mean identical though. If it does, then there is no getting around the idea that Christ is responsible for evil because the church has done evil

Yes, it is a spiritual one.

But again, according to your interpretation of a doctrine you do not believe in first place.

I disagree.