Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

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<<Well in my case, I left the RCC because of a proper understanding of the Catechism versus a biblical understanding. History also shows many claims of the RCC to be incorrect as well. >>

Please give no fewer than 5 specific examples of where the CCC (which quotes constantly from the Scripture, besides the allusions) disagrees with the Bible.
 
I think its also due the fact that Protestant is too modern rather than ancient form of Christian…
Luther and reformers were reading Augustine and the Scriptures. Not sure you can go farther back than that.
 
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That useage of “worship,” “pray,” and “lord” is NOT Old English (aka Anglo-Saxon) but is in fact modern (though not contemporary) English.

Better to close your mouth and be thought uninformed than open it and remove all doubt.
 
Luther and reformers were reading Augustine and the Scriptures. Not sure you can go farther back than that.
Augustine is Catholic. Luther isn’t and decided to rebel against God’s Church and form his own.
 
I think the biggest problem is most Catholics really do not know what they believe past a few major tenents when talking to protestants about Catholic doctrine.
That is a major problem that is why I have told fellow Catholics to learn their faith. Read the** Catechism of the Catholic Church **as well as the Conpendium of the Catholic Church, Read the Bible, Read the 16 Documents of Second Vatican Council II, and read the Writings of the Church Fathers.

They should also read the Papal Encyclicals as well so they can learn why the CC condemn contraception.

There still things I don’t know about my faith so I try to learn it everyday.
Since most evangelicals actually know what and why they believe, most of the time in great detail, they tend to assume that Catholics know what their church teaches as well.
Most Catholics don’t know their faith. They are poorly catechized. I have to admit I owe credit to Protestants who ask me why we Catholics practiced what we believe because from their question I had to relearn everything about my Catholic faith and started reading Catholic Apologetic books and audios. These help strengthen my faith in Jesus Christ.
At least that was my experience for 27 years and I doubt my experience is in the minority.
 
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Orthodox go back before Augustine all the time. He’s not the universal solvent he became in the West.

Who do you think it was who put the Scriptures together, and decided what was supposed to be in it to start with?
 
Father Abraham had many sons, and many sons had Father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you, so let’s all praise the Lord.
 
Luther and reformers were reading Augustine and the Scriptures. Not sure you can go farther back than that./QUOTE

Don’t know your history, do you?

You should not draw a weapon you do not know how to use, Kaycee.
 
Protestants cannot afford to have a knowledge of history which runs too deeply through the apostolic age.

The Protestant faith was invented out of whole cloth 1,500 years after Christ. In order to hold fully to it, one must accept quite a bit of cognitive dissonance and ahistoricity.

Luther’s theology mutated constantly. Calvin did not have the grounding in Church history or theology that Luther did, and it shows. Zwingli tends not to get discussed around these parts very often, probably because the Reformers’ treatment of the Anabaptists puts the lie to the notion of their devotion to religious liberty.

The bottom line is that some Protestants regurgitate these outright lies about the Catholic faith because it serves their purpose. Others do so because they are trained to regurgitate tradition. When my wife was a Pentecostal, for example, the pastor through simple repetition and call-and-response taught the congregation “the right way” to think about things. This is how you get the “Christ turned water into grape juice” lie that is a product of the laudable Pentecostal abstinence regarding alcohol.

That’s actually a useful way of understanding this problem. While there are rabidly anti-Catholic Pentecostals running around today, most simply inherit the tradition without thinking about it. You’d be hard-pressed to find people who’d give full-throated voice to anti-Catholic bigotry today, though, and the Methodists, Episcopalians, and mainline Presbyterians in my experience engage in such beliefs and practices far less than the fire-and-brimstoners.

We should call a spade a spade when it comes to such bigotry, as Manny has done.

I suspect that with Mitt Romney running for President we’ll see anti-Mormon bigotry heating up as well, and we should have some sympathy for our Mormon brothers and sisters who will have to hear all sorts of nonsense spouted about their faith too.
 
<<Well in my case, I left the RCC because of a proper understanding of the Catechism versus a biblical understanding. History also shows many claims of the RCC to be incorrect as well. >>

Please give no fewer than 5 specific examples of where the CCC (which quotes constantly from the Scripture, besides the allusions) disagrees with the Bible.
Here is 3 real quick
  1. Biblical Saving Faith- John 3:16, Eph 2:8, Acts 16:30 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.”
Faith for the Catholic (works must be added, the person must remain in a state of grace)
• An individual must believe that the popes are infallible when teaching ex cathedra.
• One must believe that the Bishops of Rome have been given authority by Christ to rule the Church universal.
• One must be submitted to the Bishop of Rome in all areas of faith, morals, discipline and government of the Church.
• The Roman Catholic Church alone has the right to interpret Scripture and its interpretations are infallible.
• One must accept the Apocrypha as Scripture and as part of the Canon.
• There is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.
• One must believe that the Roman Catholic sacraments are necessary for salvation and that there specific number is seven.
• An individual must repudiate the teaching that the imputed righteousness of Christ is the basis for justification.
• One must embrace the teaching that justification is not by faith alone but by human works cooperating with grace and by participation in the sacraments.
• One must believe that human works cooperating with grace merit eternal life.
• One must accept the teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation as it is the instrumental means of regeneration even for infants.
• One must believe that the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice for sin.
• One must believe that in the eucharist the bread and wine is transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ at the words of consecration (Transubstantiation).
• It is necessary to believe that confession of sins to a Roman Catholic priest and receiving his absolution and performing acts of penance is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins after baptism.
• One must embrace the teachings of the immaculate conception and Assumption of Mary.
• One must accept the Roman Catholic teaching on Purgatory.
  1. 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
The Catholic Church teaches that there is a myriad of mediator’s, Mary, Saints, Priests.
  1. Mary had relations with Joseph and had Children.
    Matt 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
 
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Orthodox go back before Augustine all the time. He’s not the universal solvent he became in the West.

Who do you think it was who put the Scriptures together, and decided what was supposed to be in it to start with?
Protestants go back to Paul and Peter and the Scriptures. That is where Sola Scriptura comes from, no?
 
We understand the claim that you dont worship Mary and Saints and Dulia/Latria hair splitting. But the practice certainly does not look like asking one saint to pray for you as you would a living, breathing friend.

When we see candles lit with kneelers before statues of saints, parades with Mary atop a flowered float it certainly appears you worship saints. The Apostle Paul rebuked those who bowed to him. Angels rebuked John for falling down and worshiping angels in Rev. Some of the prayers offered to Mary are obvious worship.
If you don’t like bowing then read Ruth 2:10 where Ruth bowes down to Boaz. And there are many other examples of people bowing to some thing without worshiping it.
You are judging these Catholic by presuming you know their hearts and intent, without proof that they are worshiping statues or saints.
I’m sure driving around in your vehicle, we have all seen those siluette stickers on the back windows of the cars (in the USA) where a person is “bowing” to a cross or on their knees in front of a cross; most all of these people are Evangelicals, so if we use the same principle you are using about “bowing” then anyone who views those siluette stickers can therefore conclude that some of these Evangelicals are worshiping a cross.
 
I think its also due the fact that Protestant is too modern rather than ancient form of Christian…
The Protestants who post on this board are not your enemies Manny. My suggestion to you to avoid using the word “worship” in the context of Mary was not made with the intent to confuse matters but, instead, as a means by which you can help to avoid confusing Protestants on the issue…which is the point of your thread, isn’t it? To understand why Protestants have some misconceptions about Catholic teaching?
 
I agree with you.

It drives me absolutely nuts when after a long and laborious discourse, some Catholic pops in on a thread and says,

“Well I worship Mary”

They are not being helpful, they are sowing confusion, and will be held accountable for their actions.

Just as I always say, “ask saints to pray for us” rather than “pray to the saints”.

Both may have the same meaning for a Catholic, but they do not have the same meaning for most non-Catholics. And even for those who understand the difference, it can still be uncomfortable.

Another example would be using the words “Devotion to Mary”. I know while I was a non-Catholic, I would do my “daily devotionals” and using “devotion” in conjunction with Mary just seemed wrong since MY devotions were solely dedicated to God.

There are different nuances to words, and this should be recognized in the common speech and usage of words of people, even while teaching the history of words, and not giving up our right to use these words in discourse intended for the edification of the members of the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Maria
Maria understands what I’m trying to say…🙂
 
[kaycee;2635735]Here is 3 real quick
  1. Biblical Saving Faith- John 3:16, Eph 2:8, Acts 16:30 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.”
You’ve gone to far in the book of Acts. Read Acts 2:38 where Peter says repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins and then you will receive the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16–“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved”
Faith for the Catholic (works must be added, the person must remain in a state of grace)
You still don’t understand Catholic doctrine, we don’t “add” works; the good works we do after God gives us His grace are from His grace and are actually His works, Mt 25:34-40,. Eph 2:8-10, Phil 2:12. Augustine said when God crowns our good works He is crowning His own works in us. 🙂
• An individual must believe that the popes are infallible when teaching ex cathedra.
• One must believe that the Bishops of Rome have been given authority by Christ to rule the Church universal.
• One must be submitted to the Bishop of Rome in all areas of faith, morals, discipline and government of the Church.
• The Roman Catholic Church alone has the right to interpret Scripture and its interpretations are infallible.
👍 Not all of them, only a few have actually been defined as de fide dogma.
• One must accept the Apocrypha as Scripture and as part of the Canon.
Actually it is called the dueterocanonicals–means secondarily included in the canon which the Catholic church gave us too.
• There is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.
There is salvation to non-Catholics yet if they are saved it is because of Jesus working through the Catholic church (extra eclessiam nulla salus)
• One must believe that the Roman Catholic sacraments are necessary for salvation and that there specific number is seven.
👍 Although some Protestant groups hold to two sacraments.
• An individual must repudiate the teaching that the imputed righteousness of Christ is the basis for justification.
Well, of course imputed righteousness doesn’t truly make you a new creation, 2 Cor 5:17; it merely covers ones sin, ye the sin remains covered, not actually removed.
• One must embrace the teaching that justification is not by faith alone but by human works cooperating with grace and by participation in the sacraments.
Synergism is the biblical model.
• One must believe that human works cooperating with grace merit eternal life.
Yes, but not in the strict sense, only Jesus can merit any good in the strict sense.
• One must accept the teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation as it is the instrumental means of regeneration even for infants.
Right, even many Protestant and Eastern Orthodox also accept baptismal regeration and water baptism, John 3;5, Titus 3:5.
• One must believe that the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice for sin.
Amen.
• One must believe that in the eucharist the bread and wine is transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ at the words of consecration (Transubstantiation).
Yes, you are doing very well here. 🙂
• It is necessary to believe that confession of sins to a Roman Catholic priest and receiving his absolution and performing acts of penance is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins after baptism.
Well, not exactly…and you were doing so well. We can ask God to forgive us for our lesser (venial) sins and He is faithful to forgive us. And with perfect contrition we can also have forgiveness of mortal sins, however, yes we should confess them to a priest, James 5:14-16, John 20:21-23. We can also confess to Maronite rite, Byzantine rite, Chaldean rite or any other other non-Roman rite Catholic priests.
• One must embrace the teachings of the immaculate conception and Assumption of Mary.
👍
• One must accept the Roman Catholic teaching on Purgatory.
👍 It is our final step of sanctification, 1 Cor 3:12-15
  1. 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
The Catholic Church teaches that there is a myriad of mediator’s, Mary, Saints, Priests.
Yes and all those other mediator Christians who are “mediating” Christ Jesus to others;l differing senses under the one mediator.
  1. Mary had relations with Joseph and had Children.
    Matt 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
1 Cor 15:25 “For he [Jesus] must reign until he [Jesus] has put all his enemies under his feet.”
Jesus won’t reign in heaven after the end of time?
 
Well in my case, I left the RCC because of a proper understanding of the Catechism versus a biblical understanding. History also shows many claims of the RCC to be incorrect as well.
Could you have properly understood the Catechism but misinterpreted the Scriptures? An example would be interesting.
 
If you don’t like bowing then read Ruth 2:10 where Ruth bowes down to Boaz. And there are many other examples of people bowing to some thing without worshiping it.
You are judging these Catholic by presuming you know their hearts and intent, without proof that they are worshiping statues or saints.
I’m sure driving around in your vehicle, we have all seen those siluette stickers on the back windows of the cars (in the USA) where a person is “bowing” to a cross or on their knees in front of a cross; most all of these people are Evangelicals, so if we use the same principle you are using about “bowing” then anyone who views those siluette stickers can therefore conclude that some of these Evangelicals are worshiping a cross.
When you see someone kneeling before a statue of Mary in prayer, would it cross your mind that that person might be praying to Mary, not the statue. Know one is arguing that Catholics pray to statues or crosses or relics directly. Do you deny that Catholics pray to Mary and the saints?

My main Idea is that prayers to saints such as this one to Mary, is nothing like me asking a brother in Christ to pray for me.

Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary #2
O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy,
Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners,
we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life;
all that we have, all that we love, all that we are
.

To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls;
to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.

We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee,
and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction. …

Finally, we promise thee,
O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men,
to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult,
in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart,
the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son,
in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven, so on earth.

Dont know about you, but when I ask a brother in Christ to pray for me, I am not quite as flattering to him.
 
When you see someone kneeling before a statue of Mary in prayer, would it cross your mind that that person might be praying to Mary, not the statue. Know one is arguing that Catholics pray to statues or crosses or relics directly. Do you deny that Catholics pray to Mary and the saints?

My main Idea is that prayers to saints such as this one to Mary, is nothing like me asking a brother in Christ to pray for me.

Dont know about you, but when I ask a brother in Christ to pray for me, I am not quite as flattering to him.
Your" brother in Christ" is not the Mother of God. Do you not show more respect for your mother than your brother?
 
How can they understand Catholic doctrine if they don’t speak Latin? 😃
 
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