Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

[guanophore]

I never understand this. Why do Protestants especially Ex-Catholics persume to know Catholic Church doctrines and dogma, but they don’t really know it.

1. They think we worship Mary, we don’t.
2. They think think our doctrines are invented doctrines but they aren’t.
3. They think the whatever the Popes says is infallible, when in fact it that infallibility is that the Holy Spirit preserves the Pope from teaching error when speaking moral and faith teaching
4. That the sacrifice of the Mass is re-sacrifice when it isn’t. It is to make presence the sacrifice at the cross which transcends time itself.

These are some false presumption of Protestants of what the Catholic Church supposedly believe. There of course countless others, which they think we believe and professed.

I noticed this too, especially here in CAF. When I left the Church, I believed many things that were not true about Catholicism. I think it is because people (myself included) are improperly catechized. I also left because I was emotionally and spiritually immature.

But that doesn’t explain Ex-Catholics. They’ve been taught otherwise. Do they just cleanse their minds of Catholic teachings, or do they just follow the new crowd?

Kim

I think many have not read the Bible, or the Catechism. I sure didnt’. Ignorance makes ex-Catholics good marks for those teaching error. I suspect that Catholic teachings were never really in their minds. They may have memorized some doctrine, but did not really understand the teaching.

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
How do you as a catholic determine what the proper interpretation of a particular verse of the Bible is if your church has never defined them?

Why would it matter?

If you are claiming that your church has the right interpretation of scripture then we need to what that is.

BTW-which version of the Bible did the Apostles use? King James?

They didn’t have translations like we do today.

Quote:
No. Luther and the reformers were against the false teachings of the catholic church. They rightly accused the church of teaching doctrines and practices not taught by the apostles.

Teachings that went unchallenged for 1,500 years. Was God realy so inept that he let his Church remain in error for 1500 years?

No. Rather He does at times let error and sin go on for a long time before He does something to correct it.

Was he so cruel that he let millions go to hell before revealing to Luther et al the doctrine of Sola Fidelis?

---

That would not necessarily follow. It is faith in Christ alone Who died for your sins that saves a person. Not the church or anything else.
No doubt Christ used the reformers to bring the purity of the gospel back to the people.

1Peter 5:7

 

[justasking4]

Veneration is different from worship. Veneration in terms of the saints is recognizing a person who has lived a holy life. Saints have done what we are trying to do, that is, reach heaven.Why shouldn’t we respect them for that? Don’t they deserve to be “honored as something sacred or special”?

How do you honor them?

Do you honor them by praying to them?

Do the scriptures say we are to honor them?

 

[FrankLawrence]

How do you as a catholic determine what the proper interpretation of a particular verse of the Bible is if your church has never defined them?

  It would be quite illogical to suggest that any words of Scripture do not mean what the Church has always taught that they meant. If they conflicted with Church teachings, they wouldn’t have been canonized.  It is true that certain individual protestants may have a better understanding of certain individual passages of Scripture than certain individual Catholics do.  Nevertheless, Protestants (or individual Catholics for that matter) have no right or authority to declare that the Catholic Church is wrong over how She has always interpreted ANY given part of Scripture, just because that person feels as if God revealed some new interpretation to them.  That would be like if I told a songwriter, author, or poet that I understand what the words of his or her song, book, or poem truly mean, while he or she has it all wrong.  (John Denver was a victim of that.)  This is not to say that God doesn’t speak to us personally through the Bible.  He most certainly does, and can reveal various truths to different people through the same words of Scripture, truths that show us His love for us, our need to love others, and truths that convict us of personal sin in our lives.  At the same time, however, when it comes to official doctrinal declarations, individual people have no authority to declare them, and no authority to try to twist the true meaning of the words of the Bible around to condemn the BELIEFS and DOCTRINES of the very Church that God gave the authority to write, canonize, and interpret the Scriptures to, the Catholic Church.  
 Many evangelical pastors may make the false claim that the Catholic Church places traditions of man ahead of the Word of God.  Well, first of all, the idea that the “Word of God” is limited to the Bible would be erroneous, as would using the term, “Word of God” synonymously and interchangeably with “Bible.”   2 Thessalonians 2:15, as well as any honest look at history clearly shows that the entirety of the faith is NOT contained in the written letter.  Granted, everything in Scripture is PART of the Word of God, but the entirety of Christianity is found within the Catholic Church.  Modern Protestants will agree with Catholics that it would be wrong for a person or church to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they will use, and disregard the rest.  Sola-Scriptura, however, is following in the example of men who decided to pick and choose which part of Christianity they wanted to use, (the Bible) and disregarded the rest (the Church.)  Even the part they have chosen, however, no longer has the divine protection from heresy over it, in terms of how it is interpreted or applied.  So, when the Catholic Church places Apostolic Traditions alongside the Bible, She is NOT violating Matthew 15:3, or Mark 7:9, but instead staying consistent with the entirety of God’s Commandments.  Can we say that about Protestantism?  Sola-Scriptura is a tradition of man.  The Bible and history show that Jesus established an authoritative Church.  (See Matthew 16:17-19, and 1 Timothy 3:15)  If you reject that Church, and instead follow the man-made tradition of Sola-Scriptura, then you are guilty of placing the traditions of men who had no divine authority, ahead of the Word of God, including the Bible, which shows that Jesus established an authoritative Church.   Therefore, to deny the oral traditions and believe Sola-Scriptura instead, is actually to deny 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and follow the traditions of man (Sola-Scriptura, an invention of heretics, made popular by Martin Luther.)  Those who follow Sola-Scriptura are deceived into believing that they are following infallible divine authority, when in reality, they are just following fallible human interpretation of a divinely inspired Book, that can only be infallibly interpreted by the authority in the Church that Christ established.   How ironic that the very thing so many evangelical protestant pastors try to falsely accuse the Catholic Church of doing by keeping Traditions is in fact the very thing that the evangelical protestant pastors are doing by denying the Catholic Traditions.

 

[justasking4]

estesbob;2637000]Since every Catholic you have run across has told you we do not worship Mary why do you continue to claim we do?

If something has the elements of worship in it i.e. praise to, petition for help, kneeling before a statute etc all these things point to worship no matter what a person claims.

BTW-is the Encrata divinnley inspired?

i don’t think so. Is Encarta defining these words correctly?

I am curious , BTW, as to why Protestants pray to Jabaz to bring them wealth? It appears to me they worship him. Is this not idolatry?

Absolutely.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Not by praying to them, but praying through them. When a Catholic says, “Well, say a prayer to St. Such-and-such,” they mean to ask for that saint’s intercession before God.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

FrankLawrence;2637061]It would be quite illogical to suggest that any words of Scripture do not mean what the Church has always taught that they meant.

What i’m asking for is where can i find the infallible interpretation of a verse or passage? Where can that be found?

If they conflicted with Church teachings, they wouldn’t have been canonized. It is true that certain individual protestants may have a better understanding of certain individual passages of Scripture than certain individual Catholics do. Nevertheless, Protestants (or individual Catholics for that matter) have no right or authority to declare that the Catholic Church is wrong over how She has always interpreted ANY given part of Scripture, just because that person feels as if God revealed some new interpretation to them.

Why not? The scriptures warn that false teachers would come into the church and decieve many. Also keep in mind that Christ never promised the church it would be protected from error.

That would be like if I told a songwriter, author, or poet that I understand what the words of his or her song, book, or poem truly mean, while he or she has it all wrong. (John Denver was a victim of that.) This is not to say that God doesn’t speak to us personally through the Bible. He most certainly does, and can reveal various truths to different people through the same words of Scripture, truths that show us His love for us, our need to love others, and truths that convict us of personal sin in our lives.

At the same time, however, when it comes to official doctrinal declarations, individual people have no authority to declare them, and no authority to try to twist the true meaning of the words of the Bible around to condemn the BELIEFS and DOCTRINES of the very Church that God gave the authority to write, canonize, and interpret the Scriptures to, the Catholic Church.

If you take this view of the church you will not be able to spot the false teachers in it. Where in scripture for example is it written that God gave the catholic church the authority to interpret scripture?
If it has this authority then why has it not interpreted the entire Bible for catholics?

Many evangelical pastors may make the false claim that the Catholic Church places traditions of man ahead of the Word of God. Well, first of all, the idea that the “Word of God” is limited to the Bible would be erroneous, as would using the term, “Word of God” synonymously and interchangeably with “Bible.”

Is the Bible alone inspired-inerrant? If not, what else is?

 

[justasking4]

Part 2

2 Thessalonians 2:15, as well as any honest look at history clearly shows that the entirety of the faith is NOT contained in the written letter. Granted, everything in Scripture is PART of the Word of God, but the entirety of Christianity is found within the Catholic Church.

That is true in the catholic church. It has many doctrines not found in the scriptures.

Modern Protestants will agree with Catholics that it would be wrong for a person or church to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they will use, and disregard the rest.

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

Sola-Scriptura, however, is following in the example of men who decided to pick and choose which part of Christianity they wanted to use, (the Bible) and disregarded the rest (the Church.)

Do you have a couple of examples of this?

Even the part they have chosen, however, no longer has the divine protection from heresy over it, in terms of how it is interpreted or applied. So, when the Catholic Church places Apostolic Traditions alongside the Bible, She is NOT violating Matthew 15:3, or Mark 7:9, but instead staying consistent with the entirety of God’s Commandments.

Nonsense. Your church violates the exhortation for church leadership. It disqualifies men who are men from leadership.

Can we say that about Protestantism? Sola-Scriptura is a tradition of man.

What is your definition of sola scriptura?

The Bible and history show that Jesus established an authoritative Church. (See Matthew 16:17-19, and 1 Timothy 3:15)

What am i to do with a church that has either nullifed the apostles teachings or adds doctrines that are not apostolic or biblical? Is that church still the authoritative church?

If you reject that Church, and instead follow the man-made tradition of Sola-Scriptura, then you are guilty of placing the traditions of men who had no divine authority, ahead of the Word of God, including the Bible, which shows that Jesus established an authoritative Church.

What protestants do is to reject the false teachings of the catholic church.

Therefore, to deny the oral traditions and believe Sola-Scriptura instead, is actually to deny 2 Thessalonians 2:15,and follow the traditions of man (Sola-Scriptura, an invention of heretics, made popular by Martin Luther.)

Have you looked at the context for this verse? Which traditions are being referred to here?

Those who follow Sola-Scriptura are deceived into believing that they are following infallible divine authority, when in reality, they are just following fallible human interpretation of a divinely inspired Book, that can only be infallibly interpreted by the authority in the Church that Christ established.

The problem is that the catholic has not interperted the scriptures infallibly. Do you know any verse that has and where it can be found? Its not the catechism.

How ironic that the very thing so many evangelical protestant pastors try to falsely accuse the Catholic Church of doing by keeping Traditions is in fact the very thing that the evangelical protestant pastors are doing by denying the Catholic Traditions.

Many of the traditions of the catholic church are in scripture but are the specualtions of men. Take Mary’ assumption. There is no evidence at all in the scriptures for it. In fact its unknown of for centuries.

 

[justasking4]

Not by praying to them, but praying through them. When a Catholic says, “Well, say a prayer to St. Such-and-such,” they mean to ask for that saint’s intercession before God.

You are still praying to them. Why do you do this when the scriptures never teach such a thing and when you can pray directly to Jesus Who is our high priest Who intercedes for us before the Father?

 

[Bishopite]

How do you as a catholic determine what the proper interpretation of a particular verse of the Bible is if your church has never defined them?

We take scripture first and foremost in a “LITERAL” sense as the church has always taught from the early church to the present. And if you don’t know, the literal sense is how and what the author intent was toward those whom he wrote. But you don’t know how to read scripture because scripture doesn’t say how to read scripture; you read and interpret scripture in light of what has been “traditioned” down to you.

No. Luther and the reformers were against the false teachings of the catholic church. They rightly accused the church of teaching doctrines and practices not taught by the apostles.

Hardly, Luther and the reformers argued vehamently over what they themselves thought scripture meant so how did THEY know what scripture said?
Zwingli denied any real presence of the Eucharist, Luther and Calvin disagreed. Zwingli denied padeobaptism, Luther and Calvin practiced it!
And to subvert 1500 years of eclessial Christian theology, and history from the great minds of Augustine, Athanasius and many other Christian leaders is an extremely over simplistic view of Christianity and its history.

 

[Bishopite]

Many of the traditions of the catholic church are in scripture but are the specualtions of men. Take Mary’ assumption. There is no evidence at all in the scriptures for it. In fact its unknown of for centuries.

First of all Revelation 11 and 12 are references to Mary’s assumption.
Secondly, does scripture contain all truth?

 

[RobHom]

If something has the elements of worship in it i.e. praise to, petition for help, kneeling before a statute etc all these things point to worship no matter what a person claims.

Really? I guess that you take much license with interpreting the english language. Or is that just your opinion. DO YOU have an infallible source to support that opinion? Suffer from “lockjaw” of the mind?

i don’t think so. Is Encarta defining these words correctly?

Absolutely.

Maybe, maybe not… Websters says:

Main Entry: ven·er·a·tion
Pronunciation: "ve-n&-'rA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person.

So whats your problem?

 

[RobHom]

If you are claiming that your church has the right interpretation of scripture then we need to what that is.

Do some research, its there…all you have to do is look for it. Or do you want everyone else to do your work for you?

They didn’t have translations like we do today.

Ahhhh, the arrogance of ignorance. Yes, they had translations, but I guess you think “your” translation is more “accurate”?

No. Rather He does at times let error and sin go on for a long time before He does something to correct it.

You have irrefutable proof of that? Or is this another of your unfounded opines?

That would not necessarily follow. It is faith in Christ alone Who died for your sins that saves a person. Not the church or anything else.

There is some truth in that, however you are missing much of the “truth”. If you believe in the bible, then you know you are only admitting to half of the truth. Faith without works is DEAD! Its an undeniable fact. Its in the bible, right? SO you cannot deny it… unless you espouse to some strange aberrant theology.

No doubt Christ used the reformers to bring the purity of the gospel back to the people.

Thanks for that… :clapping: :clapping: Thats the best laugh I’ve had in a long time. You apparently know very little about the “reformists” like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli… Tell us, which of them was right??? The truth about the reformists…they were one truly mixed up bunch that led many astray…and the descendants of the lost sheep are still wandering around in the brush :tsktsk: :tsktsk:

 

[RobHom]

Part 1

What i’m asking for is where can i find the infallible interpretation of a verse or passage? Where can that be found?

Its in the right hand column of my bible. The one I use is the Catholic Bible called “The New American Bible”. You can get one at a good bookstore.

Why not? The scriptures warn that false teachers would come into the church and decieve many. Also keep in mind that Christ never promised the church it would be protected from error.

And what unimpeachable source, other than your opinion or the opinions of others of like mind, do you have to prove that you have not fallen under the spell of a false teacher, or that the reformists were not false teachers? None? I thought so.

If you take this view of the church you will not be able to spot the false teachers in it. Where in scripture for example is it written that God gave the catholic church the authority to interpret scripture?

Uh, try Mathew 16: 13 thru 20. I realize that you all have a problem “interpreting” those verses…but if you really give it a serious try…you might get it.

If it has this authority then why has it not interpreted the entire Bible for catholics?

It has. There are plenty of sources for these interpretations. Look for them and you’ll find them. I’ve got them in my bible.

Is the Bible alone inspired-inerrant? If not, what else is?

That depends on how you look at it. Me, I don’t see it as the “final word”. That limits God way too much…and if you were to foolishly criticize my statement then you criticize yourself, as you would then be saying the reformists are wrong…because you embrace their theologies…and where is Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli quoted in the bible? Or for that matter…where is Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, or any of the other protestant man-made traditions cited or endorsed in the bible? Nowhere? Thought so.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

You are still praying to them. Why do you do this when the scriptures never teach such a thing and when you can pray directly to Jesus Who is our high priest Who intercedes for us before the Father?

No, through them, as I said before. You ask the saint to pray for you. Have you ever asked someone, a friend, or a family member, perhaps, to pray for you? It’s similar to that rather than praying to them. Catholics don’t pray to saints. Prayer is used for lack of another word. The Hail Mary is a prayer just as the Our Father is a prayer. Both are communicating with God, but one is asking Mary to pray for us before God, whereas the other prays to God directly.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are still praying to them. Why do you do this when the scriptures never teach such a thing and when you can pray directly to Jesus Who is our high priest Who intercedes for us before the Father?

Only if you pick and choose verses in Scripture rather than look at it at its fullness.

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-IV

juskasking, if you take time to read these verse they do not contradict any of the Commandment which God set for us.

We Catholics believe when we come in worship together at Mass, we pray as one together with the saints in heaven. Our prayers point to God himself. Tell me where is it in the Catholic Church teachings that we do put God out of the picture?

 

[mary_bobo]

You are still praying to them. Why do you do this when the scriptures never teach such a thing and when you can pray directly to Jesus Who is our high priest Who intercedes for us before the Father?

With all due respect, there is a difference between praying TO someone and THRU someone. If a child wants something that Dad has already said “no” to, would not the child go to Mom to have her intercede for him? We pray THRU the saints and Mary because their position with Jesus Christ is fixed. Ours is not. Who better to ask for intercession than one who is with Christ? Don’t know if that explains what I am trying to say, but think on it.

 

[guanophore]

Here is 3 real quick

The purpose of the thread was not for you to demonstrate an example of the lies, kaycee. For example:

There is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

You know very well that there are 20+ rites in the church, of which the Latin (Roman) is only one. The Church does NOT teach one must practice the Latin Rite in order to be saved.

There are a number of errors in your post, and I chose to focus on these because they are good examples of your myopic and erroneous beliefs.

• It is necessary to believe that confession of sins to a Roman Catholic priest and receiving his absolution and performing acts of penance is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins after baptism.

I think you know very well that the Church does not teach this, and enjoy pandering error. In fact, the Latin Church accepts the Orthodox Sacraments, including confession. Jesus can forgive anyone He wants, however, and whenever He wants. Try making an act of confession now, for slandering your brother, and bearing false witness!

• One must accept the Roman Catholic teaching on Purgatory.

More myopic misinformation about the Latin Rite.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is a myriad of mediator’s, Mary, Saints, Priests.

Thanks be to Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who shares His ministry of reconciliation with His people!

 

[guanophore]

Here is 3 real quick

The purpose of the thread was not for you to demonstrate an example of the lies, kaycee. For example:

There is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

You know very well that there are 20+ rites in the church, of which the Latin (Roman) is only one. The Church does NOT teach one must practice the Latin Rite in order to be saved.

There are a number of errors in your post, and I chose to focus on these because they are good examples of your myopic and erroneous beliefs.

• It is necessary to believe that confession of sins to a Roman Catholic priest and receiving his absolution and performing acts of penance is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins after baptism.

I think you know very well that the Church does not teach this, and enjoy pandering error. In fact, the Latin Church accepts the Orthodox Sacraments, including confession. Jesus can forgive anyone He wants, however, and whenever He wants. Try making an act of confession now, for slandering your brother, and bearing false witness!

• One must accept the Roman Catholic teaching on Purgatory.

More myopic misinformation about the Latin Rite.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is a myriad of mediator’s, Mary, Saints, Priests.

Thanks be to Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who shares His ministry of reconciliation with His people!

Protestants go back to Paul and Peter and the Scriptures. That is where Sola Scriptura comes from, no?

No, kaycee, Sola Scriptura is a doctrinal error that comes from Luther in the 16th century. It is not taught by Peter or Paul, or anyone prior to the development of the Protestant religions.

 

[guanophore]

When you see someone kneeling before a statue of Mary in prayer, would it cross your mind that that person might be praying to Mary, not the statue.

Yes, that would be my only thought in such a circumstance.

Know one is arguing that Catholics pray to statues or crosses or relics directly.

Actually, people DO argue that!

Do you deny that Catholics pray to Mary and the saints?

In the sense that we ask them to pray for us, and request their intercession. But not in the modern evangelical use of the word prayer, which is directed only to the Divine.

My main Idea is that prayers to saints such as this one to Mary, is nothing like me asking a brother in Christ to pray for me.

Well, whose fault is that? why blame that on faithful Catholics?

Dont know about you, but when I ask a brother in Christ to pray for me, I am not quite as flattering to him.

You might if you lived in a different time and culture, such as the ones in which many of the Marian prayers originated.