Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Let me ask you. Do you think satan is able to appear as an angel of light?
Secondly, what is the theological message of these appearances?

Absolutely, and he has even tried to impersonate Jesus himself. It would seem that you suggest that every vision of Mary in the last 2000 years is the work of the devil.

These visions have led many to a greater understanding of the Faith, and thus helped bring them to heaven. The suggestion that Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadelupe are all false and work of the devil is absloutely preposterous. “If Satan’s kingdom is divided against itself, how can it stand?”

There is no theological message. There is no obligation to believe private revelations such as those listed above, and they are not technically counted as part of the Deposit of Faith, which contains the Bible as well as Sacred Tradition.

 

[patrick457]

This is not ignorance but a disagreement of what it is called. If someone is kneeling at a statute of her, praying to her and praising her these are all elements of worship. You should know full well that the scriptures never show anyone praying to Mary.

You are using the Protestant definition of ‘woship’ here. You must use the Catholic definition of ‘worship’ to understand what we say. To quote my former post on this thread

The Protestant definition of ‘worship’ is:
***Singing, Praying and Preaching. ***
Thus when Protestants see that Catholics sing to Mary, Praying to Mary or Preaching about Mary=worship.

But the Catholic definition of ‘worship’ is:
The Sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ on the Altar.

Catholics had and would never have attempted to offer a sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Mary or ‘in the Name of Mary’, that would be a grave sin; in fact, there was an ancient heresy in Arabia (the Collyridians) that did so.

They actually considered and worshipped Mary as a goddess, and offered kolluris from whence they take their name ‘kolluris’ means ‘little cakes’ or ‘bread rolls’] to her, and was thus strongly opposed and refuted by St. Epiphanius of Salamis in his work, the Panarion which contains this quote:

“Now the body of Mary was indeed holy, but it was not God; the Virgin was indeed a virgin and revered, but she was not given to us for worship, but she herself worshiped him who was born in the flesh from her… Honor Mary, but let the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit be worshiped, but let no one worship Mary, . . . even though Mary is most beautiful and holy and venerable, yet she is not to be worshiped” Panarion 7: 1-4

 

[justasking4]

You are using the Protestant definition of ‘woship’ here. You must use the Catholic definition of ‘worship’ to understand what we say. To quote my former post on this thread

Your using a definition i have never seen before. Can you show me where you got it?

 

[patrick457]

Your using a definition i have never seen before. Can you show me where you got it?

Mostly read about it from Scott Hahn and his wife’s conversion story.

 

[justasking4]

justasking4;2641020:

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quote=justasking4;2641020]
Quote:
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estesbob;2641303
So you never ask people to pray for you? Of course you do BUT because you’re ignorant of the teachings of the Church you do not understand why asking someone who is in heaven to pray for us is no different than you asking your next-door neighbor or your pastor. Of course one would think that the prayers of one in heaven would be more effective than the prayers of an imperfect being on earth. Even more so the prayers of the Mother of God to intercede for you.

The problem here is that you are assuming without any evidence that you can communicate with people who have died and who you believe can hear your audio or mental prayers. Even the sections in the catechism assume this without any evidence that i have seen. Also, there no evidence for this in the scriptrues. What you must rely on is the speculations of men.

justasking4
Quote:
Your response doesn’t answer the question. Is it a true teaching and practice?

I don’t know and I don’t care. There is no requirement that Catholics believe anything about the brown scapular. If you want to start a thread on it go right ahead. It is irrelevant to the discussion on Catholic doctrine.

How can you not know? I thought you were one of those who wanted to correct protestants who presume to know. The brown scapular is not irrelevant to catholic doctrine. It is part and partial of the teachings of the catholic church.

justasking4
Quote:
In comparison to other catholic teachings i would agree. However is it not true that the catholic church does not teach falsely in matters of faith and morals? If so, then these promises must believe that this is true.

The brown scapular has absolutely nothing to do with faith and morals.

Of course it does. It deals in matters of faith and promises those that wear it will recieve spiritual benifits.

Again this shows your lack of understanding of infallibility as it relates to faith and morals.

Huh? I ask you a question and you brush me off. I was hoping your knowledge would help my lack of understanding.

You need to read the catechism. You need to understand it. Then come back and we can have a discussion.

I am and its amazing whats in there. Have you read the entire catechism?
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1Peter 5:7

 

[Lukelion]

I never understand this. Why do Protestants especially Ex-Catholics persume to know Catholic Church doctrines and dogma, but they don’t really know it.

1. They think we worship Mary, we don’t.

Do ex-catholics forget this part of the Gloria?
“For you alone are the Holy One,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone are the Most High,
Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of God the Father.”

 

[justasking4]

Tim Kirchoff;2641813]Absolutely, and he has even tried to impersonate Jesus himself. It would seem that you suggest that every vision of Mary in the last 2000 years is the work of the devil.

I have no reason to think otherwise. Even Paul in Colossians warned of the danger of relying on them.

These visions have led many to a greater understanding of the Faith, and thus helped bring them to heaven. The suggestion that Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadelupe are all false and work of the devil is absloutely preposterous. “If Satan’s kingdom is divided against itself, how can it stand?”

No they would not be preposterous but can also be the work of false teachers that the scriptures warned about.

There is no theological message. There is no obligation to believe private revelations such as those listed above, and they are not technically counted as part of the Deposit of Faith, which contains the Bible as well as Sacred Tradition.

Are these visions and messages from them true?

 

[patrick457]

estesbob;2641303:

justasking4;2641020:

How can you not know? I thought you were one of those who wanted to correct protestants who presume to know. The brown scapular is not irrelevant to catholic doctrine. It is part and partial of the teachings of the catholic church.

Of course it does. It deals in matters of faith and promises those that wear it will recieve spiritual benifits.

They might be part of the of the Church, but it is not a binding belief which we are all to believe.

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 "Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium [collective sense of the faithful] knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept ‘revelations’ that claim to surpass or correct the revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such ‘revelations’.

"

-Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 66-67

 

[MariaG]

The problem here is that you are assuming without any evidence that you can communicate with people who have died and who you believe can hear your audio or mental prayers. Even the sections in the catechism assume this without any evidence that i have seen. Also, there no evidence for this in the scriptrues. What you must rely on is the speculations of men.

1Peter 5:7

That is not true and after hundreds of posts on another thread you could at least have the courtesy to say you disagree with our INTERPRETATION scripture.

But that is too much to expect from someone who won’t even admit after several hundred posts that Catholics are not “praying” to Mary as they Pray to God but asking Mary to pray for us.

Is it too hard to admit that maybe, just maybe, you did not understand Catholic teachings as well as you thought you did?

 

[swariffin]

Dear Brother/Sister, I just want to add in this thread that “ONCE SAVED, PRESERVED THE SALVATION.”

 

[Bishopite]

Thanks for the list. Would you happen to know its source?

When I said try this for starters, I meant that you can start with that list, but it is an unofficial list as the Catholic church doesn’t have an official list as far as I’ve ever read, seen or heard.

 

[Yerusalyim]

JUSTASKING4,

Your posts do reveal quite a bit of ignorance about the Catholic Church. The whole Brown Scapular issue reveals this. Wearing Scapulars is not a requirement it is a tradition (small t) the prayer you mentioned is from a PRIVATE revelation, I am not required to believe the revelation nor to pray the prayer Just like the “JESUS Prayer” is private revelation and we are not required to pray it.

You have picked an area that is personally offensive to you…and which you do not understand…and have made a case out of it…get off the Mary issues for a while…everything the Catholic Church teaches definitively about Mary is found in the CCC…anything beyond that is NOT required for Catholics.

You said this earlier:

i’m quite familar with the teachings of the catholic church on a number of doctrines. If you think my opinion is wrong then show me where it is.

Sorry, the Brown scapular is NOT a doctrine…however, Purgatory is…tell us, if you will…what you know, or think you know…about purgatory.

 

[swariffin]

estesbob;2640985]
Catholic teaching concerning Mary for instance, which leads you to make naïve comments like this:

Dear Gentlemen, I wonder why people debating about Mary. For Catholics, it is clear that we do not worship Mary. I would rather use the term “respect”, “high opinion on”, “admire”. For me the english word “worship” which means “less than worship” sounds ambiguous. Yes, there is no verse in the Bible which say that praying to Mary is OK. But, there is no verse in Bible which says that Peter or Paul or John the Baptist ever went to heaven. That does not mean that they did not go to heaven, does it?. If you pray to Mary, I am definitely sure what she will say to you. She will say that “Dear ______ (fill in your name). Do you see my son, Jesus, overthere?. Go and follow what He says” (John 2). I pray to Mary that Mary will help me even without me asking her. Read John chapter 2 about the marriage in Cana. I will be happy that Mary will go to Jesus, and said “Son, _______ (fill in your name) needs help. He/she may not know that he/she really needs help”, even before I realize that I need help. That is why I believe that Mary is a co-mediatrix. Compared to other Christian, the Catholic should be one step closer to Jesus, because without us knowing or asking, Mary will intermediate us to Jesus (I am exagerating). Other people may have different ideas, but I do not blame them. For me, this is what I believe.

 

[Teflon93]

Protestants worship wood. Otherwise, why did they pull Christ off of the Crucifix?

Do not believe their denials.

They are trying to cover up the fact that they are tree worshippers.

Several Protestants when confronted with this fact in the supermarket checkout line could not refute it.

Therefore it is true.

 

[estesbob]

Protestants worship wood. Otherwise, why did they pull Christ off of the Crucifix?

Do not believe their denials.

They are trying to cover up the fact that they are tree worshippers.

Several Protestants when confronted with this fact in the supermarket checkout line could not refute it.

Therefore it is true.

Sounds like there is a lot of Druid influence on Protestants.

 

[rr1213]

We’re ignoring you

 

[justasking4]

Yerusalyim;2642899]JUSTASKING4,

Your posts do reveal quite a bit of ignorance about the Catholic Church.

I suppose i am ingnorant. Hopefully with all the knowledgable catholics here i will become more knowledgeable.

The whole Brown Scapular issue reveals this. Wearing Scapulars is not a requirement it is a tradition (small t) the prayer you mentioned is from a PRIVATE revelation, I am not required to believe the revelation nor to pray the prayer Just like the “JESUS Prayer” is private revelation and we are not required to pray it.

Does the catholic church endorse this by making it available to all catholics?

Are the claims of the Brown Scapular true or not?

You have picked an area that is personally offensive to you…and which you do not understand…and have made a case out of it…get off the Mary issues for a while…everything the Catholic Church teaches definitively about Mary is found in the CCC…anything beyond that is NOT required for Catholics.

You said this earlier:
Sorry, the Brown scapular is NOT a doctrine…however, Purgatory is…tell us, if you will…what you know, or think you know…about purgatory.

Lets not just limit ourselves to just the catechism but the entire fullness of the truth found only in the catholic church. Certianly the Brown Scapular is part of this fullness. You claim that the Brown Scapular is a private revelation that you don’t have to believe. Have you read the promise given to those who wear it?
This promise is also endorsed by the pope. Here it is:
"Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: **“I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, **so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”

This is no trivial claim here nor just a mere “private revelation” but a major claim.
If you are a catholic and believe in purgatory and believe also your church cannot err in matters of faith you should wear this scapular. I can’t think of any good reason for a catholic not to wear this. If they don’t, why not?

 

[estesbob]

I suppose i am ingnorant. Hopefully with all the knowledgable catholics here i will become more knowledgeable.

Doesn’t work. No matter how much we tell you you come back with the same old misconceptions about our faith.

Does the catholic church endorse this by making it available to all catholics?

No

Are the claims of the Brown Scapular true or not?

I don’t know. Why does it matter?

Lets not just limit ourselves to just the catechism but the entire fullness of the truth found only in the catholic church. Certianly the Brown Scapular is part of this fullness. You claim that the Brown Scapular is a private revelation that you don’t have to believe. Have you read the promise given to those who wear it?
This promise is also endorsed by the pope. Here it is:
"Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: **“I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, **so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”

This is no trivial claim here nor just a mere “private revelation” but a major claim.
If you are a catholic and believe in purgatory and believe also your church cannot err in matters of faith you should wear this scapular. I can’t think of any good reason for a catholic not to wear this. If they don’t, why not?

Nonsense. Another example of your ignorance of the faith letting your mind run off to wild and unsubstantiated conclusions.

 

[justasking4]

QUOTE=estesbob;2644405]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I suppose i am ingnorant. Hopefully with all the knowledgable catholics here i will become more knowledgeable.

Doesn’t work. No matter how much we tell you you come back with the same old misconceptions about our faith.

I’m getting the impression here that you and others can’t deal with these difficult issues. I don’t blame you. I wouldn’t want to defend this stuff either.

justasking4
Quote:
Does the catholic church endorse this by making it available to all catholics?

No

You may want to read below about the Sabbatine Privilege which was endorsed by the pope. There is no higher endorsement in the church.

justasking4
Quote:
Are the claims of the Brown Scapular true or not?

Quote:

I don’t know. Why does it matter?

If its true its for all.If its false then your church should rebuke those who promote this false teaching. Look at the claim below about getting out of purgatory the Saturday after a person’ death. If that is true, then it would make sense for all catholics to wear this. Would you agree?

justasking4
Lets not just limit ourselves to just the catechism but the entire fullness of the truth found only in the catholic church. Certianly the Brown Scapular is part of this fullness. You claim that the Brown Scapular is a private revelation that you don’t have to believe. Have you read the promise given to those who wear it?
This promise is also endorsed by the pope. Here it is:
"Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”

This is no trivial claim here nor just a mere “private revelation” but a major claim.
If you are a catholic and believe in purgatory and believe also your church cannot err in matters of faith you should wear this scapular. I can’t think of any good reason for a catholic not to wear this. If they don’t, why not?

estesbob
Nonsense. Another example of your ignorance of the faith letting your mind run off to wild and unsubstantiated conclusions.

_
Huh? How is this nonsense? Here you have a claim and a promise to get out of purgatory in no more than a week and you call this nonsense?
How am i guilty of being ignorant and letting my mind run wild when i have posted the Sabbatine Privilege right there for you to read?

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1Peter 5:7

 

[estesbob]

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I’m getting the impression here that you and others can’t deal with these difficult issues. I don’t blame you. I wouldn’t want to defend this stuff either.

You may want to read below about the Sabbatine Privilege which was endorsed by the pope. There is no higher endorsement in the church.

If its true its for all.If its false then your church should rebuke those who promote this false teaching. Look at the claim below about getting out of purgatory the Saturday after a person’ death. If that is true, then it would make sense for all catholics to wear this. Would you agree?

_
Huh? How is this nonsense? Here you have a claim and a promise to get out of purgatory in no more than a week and you call this nonsense?
How am i guilty of being ignorant and letting my mind run wild when i have posted the Sabbatine Privilege right there for you to read?

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1Peter 5:7