Why do protestants regard our Gospel as different from theirs?

[fhansen]

What makes us different and what makes us right? Please cite sources if there’s any. Thank you and God Bless!

The main disagreement concerns how man is justified and ultimately saved-what makes us right in the eyes of God IOW. Protestants had generally claimed that Catholicism taught that man can save himself, so to speak, that we can earn our way to heaven by demonstrating our righteousness, by obeying the law and doing works that please God. Protestants taught that man is saved by faith alone, that nothing we can do can cause us to earn heaven. And while the “faith alone” doctrine is sorely lacking, it contains an element of truth, but truth that the Catholic Church teaches already.

Man is not righteous on his own; for that we need Him, partnership or communion with God. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”, Jesus tells us in John 15:5. We enter this relationship via the gift of faith, faith in His existence, goodness and our dependency on Him. Jesus came to reveal this God worth our believing in. The formal way that God has provided for us to entered this vital communion is Baptism, “the sacrament of faith”. From there He does a work in us, by His indwelling, of making us who He created us to be, of forgiving, cleansing and making us into new creations, of justifying us. And the primary ingredients in this justice or righteousness that He gives us are called faith, hope, and love.

IOW, we don’t act righteously or obedient first of all in order to become united with God and earn salvation; rather we unite with God first of all by humbling ourselves in faith before Him in order for Him to enter and then produce righteousness and obedience in us. Now, from there, depending on how much time and opportunity we have in this life, we must cooperate with God’s work, we’re expected to grow in the righteousness or justice given, we’re to follow and become more like Him, and to “own” this holiness, this new life, more and more for ourselves-and remain in Him, not fall back away, or repent and return with a renewed change of heart if we do. We now, with this new life given, “work out our salvation” with He who works in us. Phil (2)

 

[OddBird]

Thanks for the chuckle !

 

[fhansen]

The Catholic Church Teaches that men must keep the Ten Commandments and begin to live righteous lives before God will wash them of their sins and “justify” them in Baptism.

De_Maria, while I appreciate your knowledge and posts, this part isn’t quite in line with Church teaching in my understanding. For an adult, we must have a change of heart as we come to recognize God’s existence and love and rightful demands of our obedience and become convicted of the sin that opposes Him, that opposes love of Himself and neighbor. It’s sort of like realizing that we cannot obey on our own. Justification is a free gift, formally accomplished at Baptism, as is the gift of faith that leads to it. Man cannot make himself right; he cannot prove himself worthy first of all because that’s putting the cart ahead of the horse; he needs God to make him worthy of Himself which happens only as we become reconciled with Him. Faith is the first step, “the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons” as Trent teaches. And this is a major difference between the Old & New Covenants.

IOW, we must become “doers of the law”, as opposed to some Protestant theology that insists that our righteousness is imputed only, but the way we become doers of the law is by entering communion with God. Then our works and obedience come from the true and right Source, the right way. And by either perspective our righteousness comes by faith.

 

[Johan]

And where in the world is @Johan when I need him?

You called, sir? I suspect that even the Calvinists find me a bit extreme.

 

[HopkinsReb]

TULIPed:

And where in the world is @Johan when I need him?

You called, sir? I suspect that even the Calvinists find me a bit extreme.

Ugh. Now there are nine total points. Too many points!

 

[TULIPed]

Welcome to the party Johan. It’s nice to have another leper in the colony.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria, while I appreciate your knowledge and posts, this part isn’t quite in line with Church teaching in my understanding.

Yes, it is.

For an adult, we must have a change of heart as we come to recognize God’s existence and love and rightful demands of our obedience and become convicted of the sin that opposes Him, that opposes love of Himself and neighbor. It’s sort of like realizing that we cannot obey on our own.

Before or after Baptism?

If you say, “before”, then you have agreed with me.

Justification is a free gift,

What do you mean by free? If you mean “absolutely” free, we must do nothing before we receive it, then you contradict Catholic Teaching.

But if you mean “God’s free will gift to all who obey Him”, then you are in line with Catholic Teaching.

formally accomplished at Baptism, as is the gift of faith that leads to it.

No one who does not prepare for Baptism by changing their heart, as you said above, will be justified in Baptism. They might go through the motions, but nothing will happen, or worse, they might be condemned for sacrilege:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Man cannot make himself right;

Did I say that? Where?

he cannot prove himself worthy first of all because that’s putting the cart ahead of the horse; he needs God to make him worthy of Himself which happens only as we become reconciled with Him.

When did I say that he didn’t need God?

Faith is the first step, “the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons” as Trent teaches. And this is a major difference between the Old & New Covenants.

I agree with all that. You’re moving the goal posts. You’re claiming that a man does not need to be converted and do the works of the Law before he is justified. At the same time, you contradict yourself, because you admitted that a man must do works of love, which by default, keep the Law.

IOW, we must become “doers of the law”, as opposed to some Protestant theology that insists that our righteousness is imputed only, but the way we become doers of the law is by entering communion with God.
That’s right. Nothing I said disagrees with that.

Then our works and obedience come from the true and right Source, the right way. And by either perspective our righteousness comes by faith.

Our righteousness comes from God. That is why it is called the righteousness of God. Which is the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

 

[TheLittleLady]

“Protestant” is a huge tent. Specifically, what denomination are you looking at?

 

[fhansen]

Before or after Baptism?

If you say, “before”, then you have agreed with me.

The Catholic Church Teaches that men must keep the Ten Commandments and begin to live righteous lives before God will wash them of their sins and “justify” them in Baptism.

Well, I can’t agree with our needing to keep the ten commandments before Baptism in order to be justified. If we can keep them then we’d already be just; we wouldn’t need to be further justified. Anyway the change of heart necessarily comes before Baptism. We turn to God because, for one thing, of our failure to keep the commandments-that’s the lesson behind the Law. So Trent teaches that we can and must keep them but that’s possible for the post-Baptismal justified person rather than for the unjustified.

No one who does not prepare for Baptism by changing their heart, as you said above, will be justified in Baptism. They might go through the motions, but nothing will happen, or worse, they might be condemned for sacrilege:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Yes, we participate in preparing ourselves-that’s different from obeying the commandments. Baptism places us into a whole new state of being.

When did I say that he didn’t need God?

Coming to recognize that need, and of our failure at obedience apart from Him, drives us to want to be His sons.

I agree with all that. You’re moving the goal posts. You’re claiming that a man does not need to be converted and do the works of the Law before he is justified. At the same time, you contradict yourself, because you admitted that a man must do works of love, which by default, keep the Law.

Love comes after Baptism/justification. Love is the chief aspect of our new justice, in fact, together with communion with the One who causes that love to blossom. No contradiction

Our righteousness comes from God. That is why it is called the righteousness of God. Which is the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but regeneration and justification involves more than washing. It means being made just, filled with the Spirit, filled with sanctifying grace, filled with faith, hope, and love. Again, if we can keep the law on our own before Baptism, then we need no washing, no regeneration.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, I can’t agree with our needing to keep the ten commandments before Baptism in order to be justified.

Didn’t you say:

For an adult, we must have a change of heart as we come to recognize God’s existence and love and rightful demands of our obedience and become convicted of the sin that opposes Him, that opposes love of Himself and neighbor.

Tell me which part of that does not keep the Commandments?

If we can keep them then we’d already be just; we wouldn’t need to be further justified.

That is precisely true. The just will be justified. Remember what God did with Abraham. He looked into his heart and found faith. Because of that faith, he credited to him righteousness. God does not give you the righteousness of God, God does not wash you of your sins, if you are not already acting in faith and love and obedience to Him.

Anyway the change of heart necessarily comes before Baptism. We turn to God because, for one thing, of our failure to keep the commandments-that’s the lesson behind the Law.

We turn to God for many reasons. Not just because we recognize a failure to keep the Commandments.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

So Trent teaches that we can and must keep them but that’s possible for the post-Baptismal justified person rather than for the unjustified.

It’s possible for anyone who acts in love. Love fulfills the Law.

Yes, we participate in preparing ourselves-that’s different from obeying the commandments. Baptism places us into a whole new state of being.

Love fulfills the Law. You are the one who said we must act in love and obedience. Both of which fulfill the Law.

Coming to recognize that need, and of our failure at obedience apart from Him, drives us to want to be His sons.

Perhaps some people intellectually think of those things when they turn to God. But, I think they are the vast minority. Just from listening to their conversion stories, most people turn to God because they are suffering and need Him.

Love comes after Baptism/justification.

Not always. Even pagans love each other.

Love is the chief aspect of our new justice, in fact, together with communion with the One who causes that love to blossom. No contradiction

Yeah, you’re contradicting yourself differently now, since now you claim that love does not exist before one is justified. But above, you said that when one is converted, one begins to act in love.

Yes, but regeneration and justification involves more than washing. It means being made just, filled with the Spirit, filled with sanctifying grace, filled with faith, hope, and love. Again, if we can keep the law on our own before Baptism, then we need no washing, no regeneration.

Yes, we do. Keeping the law does not justify. God justifies those who keep the Law.

Let’s say, for example, that a Gentile is turning to God. Like St. Cornelius, that’s a good example. He keeps the Law and is obedient to God? Is he therefore justified?

No. He won’t be until he meets God in the final tribunal and God says, “Come higher, my friend”.

Now, let’s say that a Gentile like St. Cornelius, converts, keeps the Law, is obedient to God and seeks Baptism. He is baptized. Is he justified? YES. The washing of sins justified His soul. He is a new man, born again in the image of Jesus Christ and he has been given the gift of eternal life (edit: as well as the other gifts you mentioned).

 

[fhansen]

Tell me which part of that does not keep the Commandments?

None of it. We have a change of heart because of our failure to be who we should be apart from God. The New Covenant is all about becoming with God

That is precisely true. The just will be justified. Remember what God did with Abraham. He looked into his heart and found faith. Because of that faith, he credited to him righteousness. God does not give you the righteousness of God, God does not wash you of your sins, if you are not already acting in faith and love and obedience to Him.

This is a contradiction. If we’re “already acting in faith and love and obedience to Him”, then we need no washing. Again, God does the washing, the justifying, the making us just. There’s a difference between the Old & New Covenants, you know, and that difference is grace. The Old Covenant is about self-justification, about me attempting to be righteous on my own, apart from God. Justification is more than being declared just-it’s about being made just. Faith, in response to grace, is the pathway.

We turn to God for many reasons. Not just because we recognize a failure to keep the Commandments.

As I indicated…

Love fulfills the Law. You are the one who said we must act in love and obedience. Both of which fulfill the Law.

I said we must come to “recognize God’s existence and love and rightful demands of our obedience and become convicted of the sin that opposes Him, that opposes love of Himself and neighbor.” This recognition is why we turn to Him, because of our need for Him to fulfill these things in us.

Not always. Even pagans love each other.

Exactly, and Jesus dismissed that kind of love as insufficient.

Yeah, you’re contradicting yourself differently now, since now you claim that love does not exist before one is justified. B-14ut above, you said that when one is converted, one begins to act in love.

I said that when God justifies us, we begin to love as we should. Sheez. If we come to God already acting like we’re just, then we’re like the Pharisees, including Paul prior to conversion, who basically say “Look at me, I’m worthy…”. While the tax collector who said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner”, went home justified. Luke 18:9-14

continued:

 

[fhansen]

Yes, we do. Keeping the law does not justify. God justifies those who keep the Law.

Being justified is what enables us to keep the law, to be just IOW. From the catechism:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion , effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

 

[De_Maria]

None of it. We have a change of heart because of our failure to be who we should be apart from God. The New Covenant is all about becoming with God

That also fulfills the Commandments.

This is a contradiction. If we’re “already acting in faith and love and obedience to Him”, then we need no washing.

Yes, we do. We don’t justify ourselves. This is why righteous Jews did not go to heaven until Jesus Christ died upon the Cross. Jesus had to usher them in with sanctifying grace.

Again, God does the washing, the justifying, the making us just.

Agreed.

There’s a difference between the Old & New Covenants, you know, and that difference is grace. The Old Covenant is about self-justification, about me attempting to be righteous on my own, apart from God. Justification is more than being declared just-it’s about being made just. Faith, in response to grace, is the pathway.

Agreed.

I said we must come to “recognize God’s existence and love and rightful demands of our obedience and become convicted of the sin that opposes Him, that opposes love of Himself and neighbor.” This recognition is why we turn to Him, because of our need for Him to fulfill these things in us.

So, in your opinion, the convert does not attempt to obey God?

Exactly, and Jesus dismissed that kind of love as insufficient.

True. But I’m making a different point. You said that love does not exist before justification. But, as you can see, it does. And, whether it be insufficient, it is not a sin. It remains a virtue. Right or wrong?

I said that when God justifies us, we begin to love as we should. Sheez.

That’s ok. Now, you claimed that I somehow was wrong. What is it about what I said that you consider wrong. Because your opinion is not enough. Please point to a Catholic Teaching which you think I am contradicting.

If we come to God already acting like we’re just,

Who said we should come to God already acting like we’re just?

then we’re like the Pharisees,

True. But are you accusing me of saying such a thing? Please quote me.

including Paul prior to conversion, who basically say “Look at me, I’m worthy…”. While the tax collector who said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner”, went home justified. Luke 18:9-14

Correct. But, unless you can prove that I said such a thing, you’re arguing a straw man of your own creation.

 

[De_Maria]

Being justified is what enables us to keep the law, to be just IOW. From the catechism:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion , effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

Great. So, in what way does this teaching say that one can’t keep the Commandments before justification?

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

In this case, justification can be read as “baptism”.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Still, the equivalent of Baptism.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Still Baptism.

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Nothing there says that we can’t keep the Commandments before Baptism. Not only that, but I didn’t say that we had to keep the Commandments perfectly before Baptism. But we need to change our lives and live for God. But we must detest our sins and make up our minds that we will not sin again.

to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Trent VI, ch vi

 

[fhansen]

That also fulfills the Commandments.

Yes!
That’s the point. We aren’t able to fulfill the commandments in any authentic way., via love, until we’re with God, reconciled with Him and thus justified by Him. This takes place at Baptism.

Yes, we do. We don’t justify ourselves. This is why righteous Jews did not go to heaven until Jesus Christ died upon the Cross. Jesus had to usher them in with sanctifying grace.

The difference in our thinking is this: We can’t act justly, as God desires, until we’re justified. In Protestantism justification is merely imputed or declared. In Catholicism justice is actually infused in us.

So, in your opinion, the convert does not attempt to obey God?

The first right act for a convert is to turn back to God, essentially the reverse of Adam’s turning away from Him. With the fall of man, we lost the gift of original justice and holiness; we lost self-mastery, over concupiscence. The act of our being justified is what grants the grace, the power, to overcome sin as the catechism teaches, even if it’s still a struggle in this life. Otherwise, and until then, we’re still “under the law”.

True. But I’m making a different point. You said that love does not exist before justification. But, as you can see, it does. And, whether it be insufficient, it is not a sin. It remains a virtue. Right or wrong?

I didn’t say it doesn’t exist. Obviously it’s insufficient before justification or it wouldn’t be the most important of the theological virtues to be infused in us to begin with!

That’s ok. Now, you claimed that I somehow was wrong. What is it about what I said that you consider wrong. Because your opinion is not enough. Please point to a Catholic Teaching which you think I am contradicting.

You’re essentially saying that we’re capable of acting as justly as we should, and are therefore rewarded with being justified. I’m saying that we don’t act as righteously as we should until we’re justified, formally at Baptism.

Who said we should come to God already acting like we’re just?

Here:

The Catholic Church Teaches that men must keep the Ten Commandments and begin to live righteous lives before God will wash them of their sins and “justify” them in Baptism.

Great. So, in what way does this teaching say that one can’t keep the Commandments before justification?

Sin is lawlessness, as Scripture attests. To fulfill the law is to be sinless. I don’t need “remission of sins” or “the sanctification and renewal of the interior man” if I’m already obedient.

 

[fhansen]

In this case, justification can be read as “baptism”.

Yes, or at least the cause of it. The point is that our justification is not the result of our being obedient or fulfilling the commandments, but the other way around. Or else we don’t need the New Covenant.

 

[fhansen]

to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Trent VI, ch vi

Ok, this is good-and helps me understand where you’re coming from. But this is not the same as:

The Catholic Church Teaches that men must keep the Ten Commandments and begin to live righteous lives before God will wash them of their sins and “justify” them in Baptism.

The former involves a cry for help while the latter appears to say that we can do it ourselves already.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes!
That’s the point. We aren’t able to fulfill the commandments in any authentic way., via love, until we’re with God, reconciled with Him and thus justified by Him. This takes place at Baptism.

It begins to take place before Baptism.

The difference in our thinking is this: We can’t act justly, as God desires, until we’re justified. In Protestantism justification is merely imputed or declared. In Catholicism justice is actually infused in us.

I’m not a Protestant, so, are you saying that you’re a Protestant?

The difference in our thinking is this: We can’t act justly, as God desires, until we’re justified.

That is the Protestant way of thinking. But we believe that we can begin to act as God desires when we begin to have faith.

In Protestantism justification is merely imputed or declared. In Catholicism justice is actually infused in us.

Agreed.

The first right act for a convert is to turn back to God, …

That wasn’t my question. Does a convert, before justification, begin to obey God? Yes or no?

I didn’t say it doesn’t exist. Obviously it’s insufficient before justification or it wouldn’t be the most important of the theological virtues to be infused in us to begin with!

No idea what that means. It is established that men can act in love before being justified and that love is a virtuous act before or after justification.

You’re essentially saying that we’re capable of acting as justly as we should,

After we receive God’s prevenient grace which is His call to conversion. Yes.

and are therefore rewarded with being justified.

If we cooperate with His grace and begin to justify ourselves. Yes. From the Council of Trent:

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace:

to convert themselves to their own justification,

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

I’m saying that we don’t act as righteously as we should until we’re justified, formally at Baptism.

Apparently, we can act as righteously as God wills before He justifies us formally at Baptism.

Here:

The Catholic Church Teaches that men must keep the Ten Commandments and begin to live righteous lives before God will wash them of their sins and “justify” them in Baptism.

I don’t see anything about acting like pharisees who basically say “Look at me, I’m worthy…”.

Where did I say we would boast of our works? It is God who judges. It is God who justifies.

Sin is lawlessness, as Scripture attests. To fulfill the law is to be sinless. I don’t need “remission of sins” or “the sanctification and renewal of the interior man” if I’m already obedient.

Then you won’t enter heaven. You’re obedience does not merit salvation. You can’t say, “look how obedient I am, you owe me heaven.” God is the one who pours out His mercy on those whom He deems worthy.

Yes, or at least the cause of it.

Agreed.