Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[myfavoritmartin]

Are you arguing, MFM, that the person who believes in Christ and reads Scripture, but does not feed, shelter, or comfort his neighbor in need, pleases God while the person who does all of these things because they believe in Christ and read Scripture displeases God?

Nope its NOT what I am arguing.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The Roman Catholic Church says that the only way God will ever declare me righteous, or you righteous, or anybody else righteous, is if they have a righteousness that inheres within them, an intrinsic righteousness, a righteousness that really belongs to MFM. They would say that you can’t be righteous, apart from the help of Christ, and the grace of Christ, and the infusion of His power and so on, with which you must assent and cooperate. And so you can’t be saved without the help of Christ, or without grace, or without faith.
But, added to that faith, added to that grace, added to that Christ—must be the contribution of MFM, without which God will not declare you just. Am I right or am I wrong?

No, the “Roman” Catholic Church does not say ADDED to that faith. Also, the "R"CC does not teach that we have to have faith in order to be “saved.” Jesus died for all, even those who don’t believe in him, through no fault of their own. Like unbaptized children who have not reached the age of reason, or people who for what ever reason don’t understand Christianity, kind of like you don’t understand Catholicism.

 

[Teflon93]

The Roman Catholic Church says that the only way God will ever declare me righteous, or you righteous, or anybody else righteous, is if they have a righteousness that inheres within them, an intrinsic righteousness, a righteousness that really belongs to MFM. They would say that you can’t be righteous, apart from the help of Christ, and the grace of Christ, and the infusion of His power and so on, with which you must assent and cooperate. And so you can’t be saved without the help of Christ, or without grace, or without faith.
But, added to that faith, added to that grace, added to that Christ—must be the contribution of MFM, without which God will not declare you just. Am I right or am I wrong?

That’s a pretty good paraphrase of the CCC passage I quoted, yes.

A minor point is that a gift of God, while coming from God, is ours. The grace God has given me is mine to use or not to use for the glory of God. I am holy to the extent that I use this grace for good.

The righteous man is great in holiness.

God’s gifts of grace are continuous, which is why we pray.

The link to salvation, of course, is that by doing what pleases God, we refrain from doing what displeases God—sinning.

Which brings up a second question for MFM:

Do you believe that a person’s sins prevent his salvation?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Plenty, I don’t want to be a goat, do you?

Christine who are the goats according to Rome?
You don’t think the goats are the unbelievers rather they are the undoers? is that what your suggesting?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

No, the “Roman” Catholic Church does not say ADDED to that faith.

What does it say then Christine?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Which brings up a second question for MFM:

Do you believe that a person’s sins prevent his salvation?

An unbelievers sin causes his seperation from God eternally.
A born again believers? NOPE.

 

[Teflon93]

Christine who are the goats according to Rome?
You don’t think the goats are the unbelievers rather they are the undoers? is that what your suggesting?

Might help to remind all what Christ said in Matthew 25:

“31”: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

“32”: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

“33”: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

“34”: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

**“35”: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

“36”: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. **

“37”: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

“38”: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

“39”: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

“40”: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

“41”: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

**“42”: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

“43”: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. **

“44”: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

“45”: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

“46”: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The distinction Christ makes between sheep and goat in bold. I don’t see in the text anything saying, “Ye believeth in me” or “Ye believeth in me not”. Please point me to it.

 

[Teflon93]

An unbelievers sin causes his seperation from God eternally.
A born again believers? NOPE.

So “born again believers” can wallow in sin if they so choose, and will make it through the Narrow Gate?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Christine who are the goats according to Rome?
You don’t think the goats are the unbelievers rather they are the undoers? is that what your suggesting?

No I am not, but if you are referring to Matthew 25:31-46, JESUS says nothing about believers
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you* gave ***me something to eat, I was thirsty and you **gave **me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you **did **for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you **gave me nothing **to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you **did not do **for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

He is on his throne passing judjment. There are a lot of verbs here.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The Roman Catholic Church says that the only way God will ever declare me righteous, or you righteous, or anybody else righteous, is if they have a righteousness that inheres within them, an intrinsic righteousness, a righteousness that really belongs to MFM. They would say that you can’t be righteous, apart from the help of Christ, and the grace of Christ, and the infusion of His power and so on, with which you must assent and cooperate. And so you can’t be saved without the help of Christ, or without grace, or without faith.
But, added to that faith, added to that grace, added to that Christ—must be the contribution of MFM, without which God will not declare you just. Am I right or am I wrong?

That’s a pretty good paraphrase of the CCC passage I quoted, yes.

A minor point is that a gift of God, while coming from God, is ours. The grace God has given me is mine to use or not to use for the glory of God. I am holy to the extent that I use this grace for good.

**The righteous man is great in holiness. **

God’s gifts of grace are continuous, which is why we pray.

The link to salvation, of course, is that by doing what pleases God, we refrain from doing what displeases God—sinning.

How does a man become a righteous man? I thought scripture was clear that we are all filthy rags and that we have all fallen short of the glory of God?

refraining from what displeases God? so are you saying works are like treading water?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Might help to remind all what Christ said in Matthew 25:

The distinction Christ makes between sheep and goat in bold. I don’t see in the text anything saying, “Ye believeth in me” or “Ye believeth in me not”. Please point me to it.

Oh Tef, you always have to be the first one.

 

[qui_est_ce]

How does a man become a righteous man? I thought scripture was clear that we are all filthy rags and that we have all fallen short of the glory of God?

refraining from what displeases God? so are you saying works are like treading water?

I don’t know that verse about the filthy rags. Where can it be found? I know a lot of PASSAGES where Jesus tells us what we must DO to be saved, though.

(John 6, Mathew 25, James 1, etc)

 

[Teflon93]

How does a man become a righteous man? I thought scripture was clear that we are all filthy rags and that we have all fallen short of the glory of God?

refraining from what displeases God? so are you saying works are like treading water?

No, doing good with God’s gifts increases one’s holiness, deepens one’s conscience, and thereby decreases the propensity to sin.

Sin is what prevents salvation.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I don’t know that verse about the filthy rags. Where can it be found? I know a lot of PASSAGES where Jesus tells us what we must DO to be saved, though.

(John 6, Mathew 25, James 1, etc)

ISA 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[Teflon93]

How does a man become a righteous man? I thought scripture was clear that we are all filthy rags and that we have all fallen short of the glory of God?

Really? That’s what the message of Scripture is? That man is a filthy rag?

Well, then, it surely doesn’t matter what a filthy rag does—sin away!

As for the Church’s view of holiness, I’ve posted it above—why not read it?

You may want to read the early part of the Catechism, which talks about the TRUE message of Scripture.

 

[Teflon93]

ISA 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And that is the message of Scripture?

Seems like a lot of unnecessary pages whereas this one verse is sufficient, doesn’t it?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Might help to remind all what Christ said in Matthew 25:

The distinction Christ makes between sheep and goat in bold. I don’t see in the text anything saying, “Ye believeth in me” or “Ye believeth in me not”. Please point me to it.

“46”: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What makes you righteous? Christ work or your work?
Because human righteousness is like a filthy rag so if thats what your counting on good luck.

 

[qui_est_ce]

ISA 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Interesting, you would take a single quote from Isaiah and refute all what Jesus said. Did Jesus lie when he told us to GO and BE baptized, to FEED the hungry to SIN no more?

Mark 10
*17
As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’"
20
He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.”
21
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
22
At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions. *

 

[qui_est_ce]

And that is the message of Scripture?

Seems like a lot of unnecessary pages whereas this one verse is sufficient, doesn’t it?

I wish you would have posted this before I did all that Scripture copying and pasting. I have a lot of work to do today.

 

[Teflon93]

“46”: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What makes you righteous? Christ work or your work?
Because human righteousness is like a filthy rag so if thats what your counting on good luck.

According to Christ, whom I have to admit I trust more than anybody else, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting the imprisoned are important factors in our judgment and salvation.

That may be inconvenient for some, but that’s what the Lord said.

Christians ought to do what he says, don’t you think?