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Teflon93
Guest
And they have this personal relationship at an altar call with 5,000 of their coreligionists in a gigantic building?
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Lampo
Guest
Ascension and assumption are two different things. The Assumption does not mean Mary ascended into heaven. Jesus did so by his own power. Mary was assumed into heaven by the power of God at the end of her earthly life.
Understanding how others in the Bible were assumed into heaven, how Mary is the Queen Mother, it is not a far cry to understand how Mary would also be assumed into heaven given her unique role in salvation history. The assumption of Mary is not explicitly spelled out in Scripture, but neither is the canon of scripture, the doctrine of the Trinity, or other doctrines. The interpretation of revelation sometimes takes time. History though, in the writings of the fathers, as well as non-Christian writings attest to the belief that Mary was assumed into heaven. This early testimony also helps show that Mary was indeed assumed.
More here.
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guanophore
Guest
I see your point,mfm. but this is also why Catholics do not separate out the grace that justifies from the grace that sancitifies. For us, it is all the same grace that produces everything. Any “work” that does not flow out from that justifying grace is of the flesh, and therefore, of no eternal value.
Phil 2:12-13
“…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Phil 2:12-13
One must work out from the foundation, which is Christ. We only are able to “work out” because God is at work within. That is why sanctifying grace is not separated from justifying grace. We consider them as a seamless garment, along with the grace that glorifies.
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jmtosh
Guest
Now thats what I call ignorance.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
G,
What your failing to pick up in the above quote is the proper context…This verse says work “OUT” not work “ON”…Like owning a diamond mine you OWN the diamond in it but you need to work it “OUT” of the mine. You don’t work ON your salvation, thats been given to you once you’ve put your COMPLETE trust in CHRIST alone for it, you work it OUT to show others and because you love Him and desire to please Him by keeping His commands.
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Teflon93
Guest
Ahem. Then why is it that what you profess is precisely the same as all the other anti-Catholic cant we get?
Are you claiming that you, a tabula rasa, sat down as a child with the Bible, read it cover to cover, and emerged with a full theology?
Because if you can’t claim that, my friend, POW! — you’re simply parroting the “doctrines of men” which you’ve been taught.
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guanophore
Guest
One is not saved by works at all. However, I do agree that a saving faith in Jesus Christ is a faith that works, and shows the presence of saving faith. You are making a false dichotomy here. Rituals and good deeds can most certainly be evidence of a saving faith.
Can you please explain how maturity in faith, the life of faith, liturgy and charity are not valid methods to demonstrate saving faith?
The successive sacred rites spoken of here are the ancient catechumenate rites practiced by the Church from the early centuries. Among other things, they served to protect the Christian community from imposters. Remember how the Christians would not receive Paul, because of his reputation? Barnabus had to bring him personally to the Apostles. This form of vouching for the genuine faith of the candidate is called today “sponsoring”, and is part and parcel of the sacred rites to be received into the community. Do you imagine that Paul’s faith was somehow not valid, because he needed a sponsor?
I am not sure what is your arguement with this passage. It clearly says that no one can merit anything until after one is justified (“saved”).
Do you not believe that our actions can bring us more or less grace? Do you not agree that our actions can impact eternal life?
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jmtosh
Guest
The play on semantics is a bit like jaywalking in Dodge City.
The Catholic Encyclopeadia again:
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
The doctrine of the taking up of the body and soul of the Mother of God into heaven after her death.
Did not our Lord Jesus Christ bodily ascend into heaven / was taken up (Acts 1)?
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Lampo
Guest
The difference is important if you truly want to understand the Catholic teaching on this. The Assumption does not mean Mary ascended into heaven. Jesus did so by his own power. Mary was assumed into heaven by the power of God at the end of her earthly life.
Understanding how others in the Bible were assumed into heaven, how Mary is the Queen Mother, it is not a far cry to understand how Mary would also be assumed into heaven given her unique role in salvation history. The assumption of Mary is not explicitly spelled out in Scripture, but neither is the canon of scripture, the doctrine of the Trinity, or other doctrines. The interpretation of revelation sometimes takes time. History though, in the writings of the fathers, as well as non-Christian writings attest to the belief that Mary was assumed into heaven. This early testimony also helps show that Mary was indeed assumed.
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jmtosh
Guest
Okay I see the difference.
The Bible is silent on the subject of the Assumption of Mary.
The Proto Evangelion and the discussions of some Church Fathers does not qualify as scripture.
Church Fathers often speculated on all sorts of subjects and some were even considered heretical.
There is no SCRIPTURAL warrant for such a doctrine being introduced in the 1950s.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
The Bible is silent on the subject of your existence. Does that mean you don’t exist?
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Teflon93
Guest
You can call it whatever you like. I’m merely pointing out the fact that the practices which you evince to despise in the Catholic Church are practiced widely among evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants.Now thats what I call ignorance.
In other words, if your personal relationship with Christ and reading Scripture is what matters, why do you insist on doing all this other stuff?
And don’t get me started on the vain repetition of the Sinner’s Prayer, the Apostle’s Creed, speaking in tongues, etc.
Log. Eye. Remove.
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Teflon93
Guest
Jesus DIED.
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guanophore
Guest
Indeed! But won’t it be an occasion for even more joy if we can present to Him in Christ on That Day fragrant offerings wrought by love?
Eph 5:1-2
5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Caring for the needs of others is a fragrant offerng, acceptable to God:
Phil 4:18-19
I am filled, having received from Epaphrodi’tus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.
One of the best examples of how to understand it is reflected in the movie Saving Private Ryan. Two whole platoons give their life to save him. At the end of the battle, the dying leiutenant whispers to him “earn this”. No one can “earn” the free gift of another sacrificing their life for them. But, one can surely make the sacrifice worthwhile by living a life worthy of the sacrifice (bear fruit that befits repentance). At the end of his life, Private Ryan asks his wife “tell me I have been a good man - lived a good life”. He wanted with all his heart to honor the sacrifice made on his behalf.
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guanophore
Guest
No, jmtosh, this is a very critical point, and not “semantics”. Creatures (such as Mary) have no power in themselves to ascend into heaven. They must be taken up by God, as Elijah and Enoch were.
Jesus is God,and has power in Himself to enter heaven.
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Lampo
Guest
This is true what you say. Remember, the Catholic Church doesn’t adhere to the doctrine of sola scriptura. We rely on the entire deposit of faith - Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium. Just because the Assumption was defined in 1954, doesn’t mean it was made up then. Before Adam named the animals, did they exist?
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jmtosh
Guest
I have, like yourself, not lived in a spiritual leather bubble. I have been to many different Churches and read many different works but I adhere to the teachings of those who encourage that God’s Word is exalted above all his name (see Psalm 138) and is the final appeal.
When I say doctrines of men I obviously mean it in the same sense that Christ upbraided the Pharisees for. (Please note that I am upbraiding nobody I said then that one cannot rely on the extra biblical doctrines of Men as opposed to the word of God.
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jmtosh
Guest
Fantastic! You have assumed that I am a Charismatic / Pentecostal who attends big rallies and engages in teaching the sinners prayer and altar calls just because I questioned the teachings of the Holy See?
Neither is true!
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qui_est_ce
Guest
Today’s reading is from John 21’s farewell discourse to the Apostles. He asks Peter three times, “Do you love me?” (counterbalancing Peter’s three denials) In response to Peter’s “You know I do” Jesus answers
Feed my sheep
Tend my sheep
Feed my lambs
He asked Peter to DO something. If we love Jesus, we must DO something.
The Holy Spirit has guided me to interpret this passage as one of many passages that point to the primacy of Peter.
You can argue all the theology and semantics you want, but it boils down to:
We are saved by God’s Grace Alone
We are free to choose or reject God’s Grace.
Choosing God’s Grace means LIVING our Faith, not giving it lip service. Fath is a verb.
All the rest of the Bible tells us HOW we must LIVE our faith: Eucharist, Baptism, obey the Ten Commandments, the greatest being LOVE. What is love?
I’d still like to see why “the many” limits the number of people Jesus would like to save.
I will pray for “the many” people who do not know Jesus Christ. Does this mean I only pray for SOME who do not know Jesus? No, I pray for ALL.
Well, anyway, that’s where the HS has led me.
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Contarini
Guest
Sure she’s read it. You apparently haven’t read Lumen Gentium or Dominus Iesus. We as non-Catholics may believe that Catholic doctrine has changed more than they admit, but the modern teaching is what it is. Jmcrae is paraphrasing very accurately the contemporary teaching of her Church.
Edwin
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