Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[qui_est_ce]

I think it is the same, in most cases. Catholcism teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith. The faith that mixes with grace resulting in salvation is a faith that works.

I think a more accurate way of representing it is that we bear fruits that befit repentance, and that we try to live a live worthy of the calling to which we have been called. Catholics don’t see that living a life if saving grace is separate from being justified by that same grace.

It is not “meriting” heaven, but allowing the merit of heaven to manifest it’s life within us in the present.

1 Thess 2:11-12
"…we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you 12 to lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. "

We have been saved by grace, for the purpose of doing holy works. The grace that saves us is the same grace that works within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

That too:thumbsup:

 

[kaycee]

I think it is the same, in most cases. Catholcism teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith. The faith that mixes with grace resulting in salvation is a faith that works.

Well, when I say Faith i mean “Saving Faith” is repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ on the basis of His death and resurrection, totally apart from our merit or works of any kind.

I don’t think that is what a Catholic means by Faith.

I think a more accurate way of representing it is that we bear fruits that befit repentance, and that we try to live a live worthy of the calling to which we have been called. Catholics don’t see that living a life if saving grace is separate from being justified by that same grace.

It is not “meriting” heaven, but allowing the merit of heaven to manifest it’s life within us in the present.

1 Thess 2:11-12
"…we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you 12 to lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. "

We have been saved by grace, for the purpose of doing holy works. The grace that saves us is the same grace that works within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

And yet at the end of the day it is the cooporation of the person with grace that merits and decides his eternity. I think dogmatic faith and obedience to the Pope is also a requirement as well maintaining a state of grace via auricular confession and penance, mandatory sunday mass attendance, etc…

 

[Contarini]

My understanding of the Catholic view of predestination is that God predestined everyone for Heaven and that Jesus died for everyone, included non-believers. Unfortunately, some use their free will and do not cooperate with God’s plan of salvation. These are the branches that are pruned from the vine and thrown into the fire.

The issue is very complicated. Catholicism has always taught that Christ died for everyone, and that God does not directly predestine people to hell. However, the dominant view in the Western Church from Augustine through at least 1600 or so, and maybe up to the 20th century, was that God predestines certain people for eternal life and allows the others to fall into sin and so merit eternal damnation. God does not cause anyone to sin or to be damned, but God does withhold a certain kind of help from them that He gives to the elect. Catholic theologians tried to nuance and moderate this disturbing concept as much as possible, but most of the great theologians of the Western Church–particularly Augustine (who first clearly articulated this theology, unless you see it in Paul) and Aquinas–held to it in some form. Some Franciscan theologians in the late Middle Ages, particularly William Ockham, promoted the view that you have described above. And after the Reformation some Jesuits began trying to interpret Aquinas in a way that promoted this view. (They were helped by the fact that Luther and even more so the Calvinists had taken the Augustinian position to extremes, with the result that any language about predestination “without regard for foreseen merits” sounded “Protestant.”) The Franciscan/Jesuit position appears to dominate Catholicism today, although there are Dominican theologians who still uphold the more “Augustinian” interpretation.

This is a very cursory description of a very complicated subject.

Edwin

 

[guanophore]

Well, when I say Faith i mean “Saving Faith” is repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ on the basis of His death and resurrection, totally apart from our merit or works of any kind.

I don’t think that is what a Catholic means by Faith.

Yes, this is consistent with the Catholic understanding of saving faith. I think the difference is that Catholics consider salvation as beginning at that point, continuing throughout this life, and being perfected in the next. Catholics don’t separate the grace that justifies from the grace that sanctifies, and glorifies. If you read the Council of Trent on justification, you will see the official Catholic teaching is exactly what you have said here.

And yet at the end of the day it is the cooporation of the person with grace that merits and decides his eternity.

Also at the beginning of the day. God’s grace is there for all, but it is only efficacious for those in whom it is mixed with faith. Putting one;s faith in Christ is cooperating with God’s grace. And yes, putting one’'s faith in Christ is what decides a person’s eternity.

I think dogmatic faith and obedience to the Pope is also a requirement as well maintaining a state of grace via auricular confession and penance, mandatory sunday mass attendance, etc…

The Catholic understanding of saving faith is faith that works. This work is to believe in Him, and this type of belief is one that is obedient to His commandments. Catholics see no separation between faith that saves, and faith that obeys, and faith that works. The grace all comes from God, and is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

John 3:35-36
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

 

[kaycee]

The issue is very complicated. Catholicism has always taught that Christ died for everyone, and that God does not directly predestine people to hell. However, the dominant view in the Western Church from Augustine through at least 1600 or so, and maybe up to the 20th century, was that God predestines certain people for eternal life and allows the others to fall into sin and so merit eternal damnation. God does not cause anyone to sin or to be damned, but God does withhold a certain kind of help from them that He gives to the elect. Catholic theologians tried to nuance and moderate this disturbing concept as much as possible, but most of the great theologians of the Western Church–particularly Augustine (who first clearly articulated this theology, unless you see it in Paul) and Aquinas–held to it in some form. Some Franciscan theologians in the late Middle Ages, particularly William Ockham, promoted the view that you have described above. And after the Reformation some Jesuits began trying to interpret Aquinas in a way that promoted this view. (They were helped by the fact that Luther and even more so the Calvinists had taken the Augustinian position to extremes, with the result that any language about predestination “without regard for foreseen merits” sounded “Protestant.”) The Franciscan/Jesuit position appears to dominate Catholicism today, although there are Dominican theologians who still uphold the more “Augustinian” interpretation.

This is a very cursory description of a very complicated subject.

Edwin

Great info. The calvanistic view is that we were all dead and going to hell, not that we are born neutral.

Eph 2:1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

God chooses to save some and let the rest get what they deserve.

God could be perfectly just and let us all get what we deserve but in His Mercy He chooses to bestow on some unmerited favor, Grace.

 

[rlg94086]

God chooses to save some and let the rest get what they deserve.

God could be perfectly just and let us all get what we deserve but in His Mercy He chooses to bestow on some unmerited favor, Grace.

Is that what you believe, or are you just stating the Calvinist viewpoint?

How do you believe God chooses the Elect?

 

[MayaElizabeth]

Can’t we all just get along???
I would worry what other people of different religions (non-catholic) would say but I found that Mary, the saints and above all- God has helped me during rough times. I believe I’m a good person although I do sin (I’m not perfect); I could be a better person but in the end, I will go to heaven. If you believe in Mary and the saints, then you believe in God. If you believe in God and live in Gods ways- you’ll go to heaven. Let people say what they want to say, just follow God’s path (through Mary, the saints) and you’ll be fine.

 

[SyCarl]

Is that what you believe, or are you just stating the Calvinist viewpoint?

How do you believe God chooses the Elect?

Actually it would appear to be the Augustinian viewpoint. Have you ever read his Predestination of the Saints? Basically he says that God’s foreknowledge is not based on Him knowing we would do, but is based on Him knowing what He would do.

 

[Fundamentalist]

Look at the priesthood.

Read Exodus 19:5-6 abut the “kingdom of priests”. Here is what I see about it. It reads, “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people; for all the earth is mine. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of israel.”

This is a prophetic promise. It was a promise to be fulfilled in the future on the condition that they were faithful and kept his covenant. We know that they were not faithful so God let Assyria carry off the ten northern tribes and later the Babylonians destroyed the temple and most of Judah and Benjamin. The remainder were carried to Babylon for seventy years. We see that until the new covenant, the priesthood was limited to the family of Arron of the tribe of Levi.

In Heb. 8 we find a quotation from Jeremiah concerning the new covenant. In verse 9 he states that the Jews had not continued in his covenant. Most of the Jews were not faithful to God. Those who were faithful continued to serve God and accepted the new covenant and then recevied the promise of becoming a kingdom of priests. So we see that in due time, those who kept the first covenant and lived to see the new one received the promise that God made in Exodus 19.

 

[rlg94086]

Actually it would appear to be the Augustinian viewpoint. Have you ever read his Predestination of the Saints? Basically he says that God’s foreknowledge is not based on Him knowing we would do, but is based on Him knowing what He would do.

Understood. So, how do you think God chooses who to save? Is it random?

 

[SyCarl]

Understood. So, how do you think God chooses who to save? Is it random?

No idea. I don’t think Augustine did either other than according to His own good purpose. Both he and Calvin said we shouldn’t look into it too closely since it couldn’t be understood.

By the way, I do not hold to that view of prdestination. Although I do believe that God can choose and still allow us true freewill, even if we don’t know how the two can go together.

 

[rlg94086]

By the way, I do not hold to that view of prdestination. Although I do believe that God can choose and still allow us true freewill, even if we don’t know how the two can go together.

I agree with you…all things are possible with God. However, as I said earlier, I don’t think the discussion of predestination has any practical application in our lives (unless I guess, as Contarini explains, you are a strict Calvinist). I just wonder what incredible arrogance is required for someone to think they are one of God’s “elect” and the “other guy” isn’t - especially when both are Christians.

Anyway, it isn’t logical to me that God would come to earth and be crucified for a random group He decided to save.

 

[Teflon93]

I’d say that is a pretty sloppy analysis of the theology I’ve presented on this thread.

Though I would say if you don’t live a life of obedience and submission to our Lord Jesus Christ it should give you pause as to whether you are in fact born again and are experiencing the life long sanctification and regeneration brought on by the HS indwelling.

Well, then be very clear.

Can the saved sin?

If someone has a moment where they repented of prior sin, acknowledged Jesus as their personal lord and savior, and later sin, were they really saved at that moment or not?

 

[Teflon93]

Can you define the RC concept of grace?

No I dont think that, I believe we are all saved by Grace thru Faith. Trying to add works to merit heaven is not the Gospel of Grace.

You’ve been provided (yet again) the online link to the Catechism. It is searchable. Type in grace and follow the links.

Go on.

You were predestined to.

 

[kaycee]

The Catholic understanding of saving faith is faith that works. This work is to believe in Him, and this type of belief is one that is obedient to His commandments. Catholics see no separation between faith that saves, and faith that obeys, and faith that works. The grace all comes from God, and is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

John 3:35-36
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

The evangelical understanding is certainly quite different with a clear distinction between Faith and Obedience. Justification and sanctification are quite different to evangelicals as well. We see Justification by Faith as the appropriation of salvation and obedience and sanctification as the certain result.
Kind of a cause and effect relationship.

 

[rlg94086]

You’ve been provided (yet again) the online link to the Catechism. It is searchable. Type in grace and follow the links.

Go on.

You were predestined to.

Do we know for certain whether kaycee believes in predestination?

Anyway, here is her/his signature line:
Acts 16:30 What must I do to be saved? They said, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Rom10:9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

So, I’m guessing not. In fact, kaycee believes some specific works are necessary to be saved: you must believe and you must confess with your mouth. Both of those sound like actions that a man must perform in order to “merit God’s grace.”

Catholics don’t believe in such “saved by works” methods.

 

[kaycee]

Is that what you believe, or are you just stating the Calvinist viewpoint?

How do you believe God chooses the Elect?

Yup, I would be a five pointer calvinist.

 

[kaycee]

Actually it would appear to be the Augustinian viewpoint. Have you ever read his Predestination of the Saints? Basically he says that God’s foreknowledge is not based on Him knowing we would do, but is based on Him knowing what He would do.

The council of Orange is pretty “Calvinistic” too!

 

[kaycee]

So, I’m guessing not. In fact, kaycee believes some specific works are necessary to be saved: you must believe and you must confess with your mouth. Both of those sound like actions that a man must perform in order to “merit God’s grace.”

Catholics don’t believe in such “saved by works” methods.

Yeah, thats why I left.

Actually, Faith is a gift as well.

 

[rlg94086]

Yeah, thats why I left.

Actually, Faith is a gift as well.

That’s what the Church teaches, as well. I think we just disagree on what happens after when we receive that gift.

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

It sounds like you weren’t too well catechized. I’m sorry for that. God bless you in your journey.