Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[myfavoritmartin]

1 john 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and** ye need not that any man teach you**: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and **not be ashamed before him at his coming. **29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

John says nothing about losing your salvation even though you’ll be ashamed,

 

[myfavoritmartin]

There is a vast difference between the salvation for the lost, and the doctrine of rewards for believers. Salvation is a gift (Eph.2:8-9)Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast. ,not of works. Rewards are according to the works of the believer, any believer on either side of the; pulpit or podium.(Matt.16:27)Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
. Every believer will be rewarded according to his own labor (1 Cor.3:8-15) *vs 8.1Cr 3:8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
1Cr 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1Cr 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.
1Cr 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
1Cr 3:14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames
The believer has two types of building materials 1) eternal or temporal, vs.12^ ;( 2 Cor.4:18)>
2Cr 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
. Only the believer building on eternal materials will receive a reward. The “wood, hay, straw” works will be destroyed at the “Judgment Seat of Christ” 2 Cor .5; 10. 2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Some believers Will be ashamed at the Judgment Seat of Christ. 1 Jn.2;28 1Jo 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
. Some will be saved, but with few works of value to the Lord 1 Cor.3;15. 1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
FIRST Crown, The Crown of Life James1;12
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
…Secondly, The Crown Imperishable, 1 Cor. 9;24-27
1Cr 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1Cr 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
1Cr 9:26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
1Cr 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Thirdly, The Crown of Rejoicing, 1 Thess.2;19-20,
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?
1Th 2:20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy
Fourthly, The Crown of Righteousness, 2Tim. 4:5-8,
2Ti 4:5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Fifthly, The Crown of Glory, 1 Peter 5:2-5.
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers–not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1Pe 5:5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because ,“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”*

This is a challenge for all of us as believers to give our lives to the Lord as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1-2),
Rom 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual* act of worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

not living for what we want, but what God wants.

 

[Teflon93]

There is a vast difference between the salvation for the lost, and the doctrine of rewards for believers. Salvation is a gift (Eph.2:8-9)Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast. ,not of works. Rewards are according to the works of the believer, any believer on either side of the; pulpit or podium.(Matt.16:27)Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
. Every believer will be rewarded according to his own labor (1 Cor.3:8-15) *vs 8.1Cr 3:8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
1Cr 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1Cr 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.
1Cr 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
1Cr 3:14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames
The believer has two types of building materials 1) eternal or temporal, vs.12^ ;( 2 Cor.4:18)>
2Cr 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
. Only the believer building on eternal materials will receive a reward. The “wood, hay, straw” works will be destroyed at the “Judgment Seat of Christ” 2 Cor .5; 10. 2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Some believers Will be ashamed at the Judgment Seat of Christ. 1 Jn.2;28 1Jo 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
. Some will be saved, but with few works of value to the Lord 1 Cor.3;15. 1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
FIRST Crown, The Crown of Life James1;12
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
…Secondly, The Crown Imperishable, 1 Cor. 9;24-27
1Cr 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1Cr 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
1Cr 9:26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
1Cr 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Thirdly, The Crown of Rejoicing, 1 Thess.2;19-20,
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?
1Th 2:20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy
Fourthly, The Crown of Righteousness, 2Tim. 4:5-8,
2Ti 4:5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Fifthly, The Crown of Glory, 1 Peter 5:2-5.
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers–not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1Pe 5:5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because ,“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”*

This is a challenge for all of us as believers to give our lives to the Lord as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1-2),
Rom 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual* act of worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

not living for what we want, but what God wants.

Where did the red text come from?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Where did the red text come from?

The type font color selector.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Where did the red text come from?

Ignore this post, it won’t do anything but sidetrack the thread I should not have posted it…

 

[Contarini]

Oh, nonsense.

SyCarl injected all the “merit” talk, which you picked up on in your post.

Because you defended it. My point is that Protestants have legitimate concerns about “merit” language, which need to be addressed by Catholics.

We’ve been over the “jewels in the crown” issue before. I explained in the other thread that the “jewels in the crown” language does not involve the Church exercising the “power of the keys” and thus is not the same issue. (The question on this thread is a different one. Here the “jewels in the crown” language is irrelevant because, like indulgences, it is not talking about eternal salvation. It is in fact the attempt of fundamentalists to avoid the clear implications of what the NT says about the importance of good works.
We agree on this!) And my objections to indulgences had nothing to do with “works salvation.” You raised something that Catholics might falsely claim to be about works salvation in response to an issue that Protestants might falsely claim to be about works salvation, even though I had never said anything about works salvation. And if that’s not obfuscation. . . .

Similarly here, you are trying to obscure the fact that I do not in fact have a problem with works being necessary for final salvation (in a normative sense–obviously the thief on the Cross didn’t have much of a chance to do good works), or with the proposition that works are rewarded, or with the proposition that the works God does in us have intrinsic value. I have explicitly said that I agree with all of these things. Why are you ignoring this? You are full of such anger toward your fundamentalist past that you want to caricature all Protestants as fundamentalists. Witness your absurd reference to “my own” fundamentalists. They’re no more “my own” than you are. I am an Anglican with some ties to the United Methodist Church. I have no more ties with fundamentalists than I do with Catholics, and I agree with Catholic theology far more than I do with fundamentalist theology.

You know, Teflon, we could have some wonderful, civil, substantive conversations if you would just drop this hyper-defensive line. I am not your enemy. I am not attacking Catholicism. I am trying to contribute to better understanding between Protestants and Catholics, and you seem committed to the opposite goal.

Back to the point at issue: all I said is that the Gospel passages you are citing do not in fact use the language of “merit.” This recognition is necessary in order to discuss why Catholics use that language, what you mean by it, why Protestants have a problem with it, and how far this may represent a real disagreement or simply a matter of semantics.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

Because you defended it.

What? I don’t believe in anything resembling a “merit” salvation. Nor does the Catholic Church. How could we, when “the wages of sin is death” and we are all sinners?

So why do SyCarl and others claim we do?

My point is that Protestants have legitimate concerns about “merit” language, which need to be addressed by Catholics.

It’s their strawman—let them explain it.

We’ve been over the “jewels in the crown” issue before. I explained in the other thread that the “jewels in the crown” language does not involve the Church exercising the “power of the keys” and thus is not the same issue.

A complete dodge. Some Protestants clearly believe in works resulting in reward, whether in this life (prosperity gospel) or the next (“jewels in the crown”). Can’t blame Catholics for that, so move along, right?

(The question on this thread is a different one. Here the “jewels in the crown” language is irrelevant because, like indulgences, it is not talking about eternal salvation. It is in fact the attempt of fundamentalists to avoid the clear implications of what the NT says about the importance of good works.

Yes, of course it is, which is why I brought it up, and why it is relevant to this discussion. For how can those fundamentalists claim that Catholics are going to hell because the works we do somehow indicate a lack of faith, while simultaneously engaging in “additional” works themselves to show the “fruit” of their faith?

That’s the point!

We agree on this!) And my objections to indulgences had nothing to do with “works salvation.” You raised something that Catholics might falsely claim to be about works salvation in response to an issue that Protestants might falsely claim to be about works salvation, even though I had never said anything about works salvation. And if that’s not obfuscation. . . .

It’s not only not obfuscation, but you’ve managed to completely mischaracterize my previous point, which was simply that someone like yourself who loathes the practice of indulgences ought to abhor similar practices among fundamentalists. So why don’t you?

The question is one of your consistency. You have tried on a variety of distinctions now, but have yet to explain fully why you see these things to be so different. You know why I think you make such distinctions. So prove me wrong.

Similarly here, you are trying to obscure the fact that I do not in fact have a problem with works being necessary for final salvation (in a normative sense–obviously the thief on the Cross didn’t have much of a chance to do good works), or with the proposition that works are rewarded, or with the proposition that the works God does in us have intrinsic value. I have explicitly said that I agree with all of these things. Why are you ignoring this?

I’m not. I’m calling you on a bogus argument you’ve made in support of the notion that Catholics believe in a “works (merit) salvation”. We do not. If you agree that we do not, so state, clearly, please.

You are full of such anger toward your fundamentalist past that you want to caricature all Protestants as fundamentalists. Witness your absurd reference to “my own” fundamentalists. They’re no more “my own” than you are. I am an Anglican with some ties to the United Methodist Church. I have no more ties with fundamentalists than I do with Catholics, and I agree with Catholic theology far more than I do with fundamentalist theology.

Then why are you so reticent to condemn such practices as “jewels in the crown”?

I am not angry with fundamentalists—my wife was the member of the Pentecostal Church of God, not me; I simply attended with her for a couple of years. I was raised Episcopalian myself. I have far more of a beef with the relativism of the Episcopal Church than with the practices of the fundamentalist ones and believe the former is far more damaging to Christianity as a whole.

You know, Teflon, we could have some wonderful, civil, substantive conversations if you would just drop this hyper-defensive line. I am not your enemy. I am not attacking Catholicism. I am trying to contribute to better understanding between Protestants and Catholics, and you seem committed to the opposite goal.

I am committed to the Truth. Misstating Catholic teaching, even in support of ecumenism or the Catholic position in general, is a disservice. Indeed, when my Catholic brothers and sisters correct me, they are not being “hyper-defensive”, but doing as Christ bid them do.

Back to the point at issue: all I said is that the Gospel passages you are citing do not in fact use the language of “merit.” This recognition is necessary in order to discuss why Catholics use that language, what you mean by it, why Protestants have a problem with it, and how far this may represent a real disagreement or simply a matter of semantics.

In Christ,

Edwin

So once again: Protestants erect this “merit” foundation the better to justify the disobedience of the Reformers, and we now have to play the role they’ve written for us?

Better see what the Catechism has to say, then. Next.

 

[Teflon93]

From the Catechism:

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59
2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that **the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. **

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

Justification and sanctification are gifts of God. We, possessing free will, can choose to use these gifts for good or ill, or not use them at all. Using these gifts for good draws us closer to God, not because we “deserve” it, not because we’ve “earned” it, but because God favors the good.

If someone chooses to acknowledge these gifts of God intellectually, but takes no action whatsoever to act upon them, are they not the Prodigal Son, squandering the fortune of the Father? If they fail to repent and come home, how can they be at the feast?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

From the Catechism:

Justification and sanctification are gifts of God. We, possessing free will, can choose to use these gifts for good or ill, or not use them at all. Using these gifts for good draws us closer to God, not because we “deserve” it, not because we’ve “earned” it, but because God favors the good.

If someone chooses to acknowledge these gifts of God intellectually, but takes no action whatsoever to act upon them, are they not the Prodigal Son, squandering the fortune of the Father? If they fail to repent and come home, how can they be at the feast?

So let me ask you this, do you believe that the only righteousness that has the **merit necessary **to meet the requirements of the holiness of God, is that righteousness that was achieved and performed by Jesus Christ—and by Jesus Christ “alone!”

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Do you deny, in effect that A man is justified by faith based upon his completion of a whole series of years of efforts to keep the law, and finally he is justified by his own merit?

 

[Teflon93]

So let me ask you this, do you believe that the only righteousness that has the **merit necessary **to meet the requirements of the holiness of God, is that righteousness that was achieved and performed by Jesus Christ—and by Jesus Christ “alone!”

The very next section of the CCC addresses the notion of holiness:

IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

**2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66 **

**In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ’s gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67 **

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - “the holy mysteries” - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:

He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71

Our holiness does matter to God, representing as it does how we use the gifts of grace He’s given us. If your question, MFM, is “Do Christians need to do NOTHING, Christ having been crucified?” the answer is “No.” The early Church was called The Way, not The Waiting, for a reason. Christ spoke repeatedly of what we must DO for a reason.

“Take up your cross and follow me”, “Go and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, “Do this in remembrance of me”, etc cannot be avoided or explained away, which is why all devout Christians strive to please God through good works, regardless of what terminology they employ in so doing.

 

[Teflon93]

Do you deny, in effect that A man is justified by faith based upon his completion of a whole series of years of efforts to keep the law, and finally he is justified by his own merit?

More undefined terms thrown in.

If you mean that keeping the Law of Moses doesn’t count, you’ll need to address the passage from Matthew posted above (and still unaddressed) where Christ tells the rich man to “Keep the Commandments” if he is to be saved.

You’ve also added the “by his own merit”; which as the CCC passage I’ve posted clearly illustrates, is more properly understood by the Church to be “by the grace of God.”

For as the Church notes, we have been given a great gift to do good by God. The good we do with it pleases God. God, as is evident throughout Scripture, favors those who seek to please Him. Faith and works, as James notes, therefore cannot be separated. It was not sufficient for Abraham to mentally assent to the sacrifice of Isaac; he had to lay the boy on the altar, raise the knife, and bring it down.

Are you arguing, MFM, that the person who believes in Christ and reads Scripture, but does not feed, shelter, or comfort his neighbor in need, pleases God while the person who does all of these things because they believe in Christ and read Scripture displeases God?

 

[qui_est_ce]

So let me ask you this, do you believe that the only righteousness that has the **merit necessary **to meet the requirements of the holiness of God, is that righteousness that was achieved and performed by Jesus Christ—and by Jesus Christ “alone!”

We are saved by the GRACE of God alone. God’s Grace asks us to be baptized, to do good in his name (James), eat his body, drink his blood (John 6)

Do you deny, in effect that A man is justified by faith based upon his completion of a whole series of years of efforts to keep the law, and finally he is justified by his own merit?

?? Why are you asking this? Which denomination teaches such a doctrine?

Because Jesus died for us, we must unite with him to complete in the unfinished work of his perfect sacrifice.

Colossians 1:24 (English Standard Version)
24Now(A) I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh(B) I am filling up(C) what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions(D) for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Do you deny, in effect that A man is justified by faith based upon his completion of a whole series of years of efforts to keep the law, and finally he is justified by his own merit?

This is a simple question I posed Tef,

Are you arguing, MFM, that the person who believes in Christ and reads Scripture, but does not feed, shelter, or comfort his neighbor in need, pleases God while the person who does all of these things because they believe in Christ and read Scripture displeases God?

The never ending bait and switch, this isn’t about what pleases or displeases God it’s about what affect work or lack thereof has on salvation.

 

[qui_est_ce]

This is a simple question I posed Tef,

The never ending bait and switch, this isn’t about what pleases or displeases God it’s about what affect work or lack thereof has on salvation.

Plenty, I don’t want to be a goat, do you?

 

[Teflon93]

This is a simple question I posed Tef,

You’re the bait-and-switcher, MFM, by switching terms that are not synonymous as though they were.

I answered your question, and provided you the evidence.

As with the other passages quoted, you refused to address it. Even to acknowledge it, in this case. How come?

The never ending bait and switch, this isn’t about what pleases or displeases God it’s about what affect work or lack thereof has on salvation.

Funny, but that’s the question I just asked you, and you haven’t answered it.

How come?

 

[Teflon93]

Pleanty, I don’t want to be a goat, do you?

Shhh—we’re apparently not supposed to reference this, nor any other Scripture which points to the need for us to use the gifts of grace God gives us for good.

 

[Teflon93]

Here’s the question again for MFM’s benefit:

Are you arguing, MFM, that the person who believes in Christ and reads Scripture, but does not feed, shelter, or comfort his neighbor in need, pleases God while the person who does all of these things because they believe in Christ and read Scripture displeases God?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The Roman Catholic Church says that the only way God will ever declare me righteous, or you righteous, or anybody else righteous, is if they have a righteousness that inheres within them, an intrinsic righteousness, a righteousness that really belongs to MFM. They would say that you can’t be righteous, apart from the help of Christ, and the grace of Christ, and the infusion of His power and so on, with which you must assent and cooperate. And so you can’t be saved without the help of Christ, or without grace, or without faith.
But, added to that faith, added to that grace, added to that Christ—must be the contribution of MFM, without which God will not declare you just. Am I right or am I wrong?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Shhh—we’re apparently not supposed to reference this, nor any other Scripture which points to the need for us to use the gifts of grace God gives us for good.

You mean like in today’s reading where Paul tells the Priests (Presbyters) to act as a Consecrated people? (Holy, set aside)
Acts 20:32-35
*32
And now I commend you to God and to that gracious word of his that can build you up and give you the inheritance among all who are consecrated.
33
I have never wanted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing.
34
You know well that these very hands have served my needs and my companions.
35 **
In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that **sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’" *

Oh, I just dislike it when I take verses out of context