Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[Teflon93]

Using scripture you can not state this as fact, simply because the judgement of nations is exactly as I say the seperating of those alive whom are believers (sheep) nonbelievers (goats).

Sure I can—and I’ll quote it again. Christ gives the REASON for the separation. Or does he lie to the sheep and the goats?

Matthew 25, the whole thing:

1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14: For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15: And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16: Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17: And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18: But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19: After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20: And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21: His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. **
22: He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23: His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. **
24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26: His lord answered and said unto him, **Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: **
27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
**29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. **
**30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. **
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, **inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. **
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, **Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. **
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Teflon93]

So the parable of the sheep and the goats, in context, parallels the parable of the wicked servant.

Both concern what we must DO.

Torture this chapter as you like, MFM, it will never confess “sola fide”.

 

[e61iuser]

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Excellent! Some more please!

 

[jmtosh]

Hi,

Sorry Tiber Swim Team. Thanks for your welcome. I did not mean to be accusatory at all

I intended to answer the question originally posed.

Hence the no holds barred / broadside approach!

My profuse apologies again if I offended.

I have never been a Roman Catholic but have met and know many who are. They are normal, lovely people.

I cannot however agree with Roman Catholic Doctrine on either the Scriptural or Historical level as I honestly feel that both bear testimony to the reverse.

I am a Non - Conformist, I am hesistant to call myself Protestant as I am not one of the original protesters but sympathy with those who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Institutionalised Churches.

Surely there is only one Catholic / Universal mystical body of Christ? The Kingdom of God does not come with observation, it is not a visible building or institution.

Thanks for pointing out the links, I will certainly have a look.

Jonathan

 

[Teflon93]

Hmm, seems like MFM has skipped some verses where Christ speaks directly of salvation. Wonder why?

Matthew 19:

16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but **if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. **18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, **Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **
20: The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
**21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. **
22: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23: Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24: And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25: When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27: Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28: And Jesus said unto them, **Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. **30: But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Hmm, why Christ almost seems as though he were promising to reward the apostles with eternal life for their actions of forsaking all and following him!

 

[Teflon93]

Oh, and here’s another passage which must have slipped MFM’s mind, although he quoted a tiny excerpt from it:

28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? **
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. **
37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42: And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43: Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: **Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. **59: These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him

.

I’m beginning to see a common thread in those passages MFM omits.

 

[kentuckyliz]

The last verse is very telling – failing to believe in the Eucharist and leaving Him…is the only instance of the chapter and verse numbering of 6:66 in the NT.

666!

Coinkydinky?

I think not.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Sure I can—and I’ll quote it again. Christ gives the REASON for the separation. Or does he lie to the sheep and the goats?

Matthew 25, the whole thing:

Teflon NOWHERE does it say that the sheep are sheep because of their own meritorious work…NOWHERE…

It talks of good work yes…It does NOT attach it to salvation.

 

[e61iuser]

Quite! It’s almost like he’s choosing the words that only appeal to him and saying that everything else, even the very words spoken by Christ, are irrelevant.

What a novel approach!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

**Please read the 6th chapter of John from verse 1 until the end. Maybe then it will make spiritual sense to you Jesus preformed a miracle where thousands were fed bread. He then went away from the crowd. The crowd followed him, but not because they sought Christ as teacher or Savior, not because they knew he was the Christ, but because they wanted to get their stomachs full of bread.

Read the rebuke of Christ to them**

Jhn 6:25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

It was then he began to teach that they were looking for a miracle that would fill their stomachs ( as did the nation of Israel in the desert) . They wanted their temporal needs met.

Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus laid out that salvation was by FAITH, and that was a work of the Father

Then then decided to put Christ to a test …Give us PROOF. THEY brought up the manna …

Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

They were still looking to get fed and have their human needs met.

Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
**
Jesus clarified where salvation comes from.**

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven

He was pointing out that the "bread from heaven " that kept their fathers only gave them physical life. HE on the other hands was sent from the father to give them eternal spiritual life.

They did not “get it” they were looking for REAL bread to give them life as had happened in the desert, they were looking for tangible bread like manna.

Jhn 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Jesus then patiently explained to them that His flesh is life for the world… His crucified body was what was going to bring eternal life

Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you,That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
**
Jesus made a pretty clear statement here. YOU do not HEAR me because you are NOT given to me by the Father.**

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

**The entire message is on salvation by faith .

The listeners did not get it , they were hung up on another point .**

Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Notice the focus of the crowd was not on Him being the BREAD or eating Him but that He said he came down from heaven ( a claim of divinity )

Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Keep in mind He had already taught at some length that He that believed on Him would be saved… He has already taught that he that is taught by the Father come to him and are saved… So to interpret this as other than a metaphor of being saved by His soon to be broken body and his shed blood, by internalizing the fact of the atonement in faith is not a good reading and not the one understood by the new church

The discussion on the bread WAS FINISHED in verse 59.
Jesus continued with a harder teaching

60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”

61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?

62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?

THIS IS A CLAIM OF DIVINITY, that was blasphemy to the Jews . Now see their reaction to this as Jesus continues

63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

The message was one that the legalist Jews did not want to hear. Men can not save themselves GOD has to grant it to them

**NOW they LEFT **

66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

It was not the discourse on bread that made them leave , that they understood that as an analogy, Jesus was saying He was like the manna that fed their ancestors.
But then He made it clear that He had come from the Father and would return there. that was a claim of divinity and blasphemy to observant Jews

THEN

67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;

69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

**Now does Peter talk about the bread?

NO,

He addresses what the others left over, the divinity of Christ, Peter heard the message that one would be saved by BELIEVING in Christ as He had taught in this discourse.**

**This episode opened because the crowd wanted PROOF, a SIGN, and so they asked for food.
Jesus made the transition to the manna because of the demand of the crowd for food to prove what he said.
This discourse is on faith without signs , it is on being saved by faith. **

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hi,

Sorry Tiber Swim Team. Thanks for your welcome. I did not mean to be accusatory at all

I intended to answer the question originally posed.

Hence the no holds barred / broadside approach!

My profuse apologies again if I offended.

I have never been a Roman Catholic but have met and know many who are. They are normal, lovely people.

I cannot however agree with Roman Catholic Doctrine on either the Scriptural or Historical level as I honestly feel that both bear testimony to the reverse.

I am a Non - Conformist, I am hesistant to call myself Protestant as I am not one of the original protesters but sympathy with those who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Institutionalised Churches.

Surely there is only one Catholic / Universal mystical body of Christ? The Kingdom of God does not come with observation, it is not a visible building or institution.

Thanks for pointing out the links, I will certainly have a look.

Jonathan

Yes, there is One Church. You might enjoy the lecture by that name found here. You’ll see a whole list of free MP3 downloads. Scroll down a bit for “One Church.” Happy listening!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Quite! It’s almost like he’s choosing the words that only appeal to him and saying that everything else, even the very words spoken by Christ, are irrelevant.

What a novel approach!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Oh, and here’s another passage which must have slipped MFM’s mind, although he quoted a tiny excerpt from it:

.

I’m beginning to see a common thread in those passages MFM omits.

I omit nothing…If that’s the best response you can arrive at without substance maybe you should stop the argument now.
Personal jabs are counter productive.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hmm, seems like MFM has skipped some verses where Christ speaks directly of salvation. Wonder why?

Matthew 19:16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Hmm, why Christ almost seems as though he were promising to reward the apostles with eternal life for their actions of forsaking all and following him!

Wrong read it again only one is good NOTHING you can do, keeping the commandments is what he says we are to do IF we love Him…Our Faith saves our actions prove our faith. Just like James says.

 

[jmtosh]

Hi,

Bear with me!

In the Gospel According To Luke 18:9-14

And he spake this parable to certain that trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote on his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for ebery one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In Luke 15 the account of the prodigal son shows that he who wasted his father’s substance with riotous living and harlots came to himself and after returning to his father was forgiven. Whilst the elder son who had worked hard in his father’s house was indignant, appealing to his works and was actually lost.

In Luke 7 the woman who was a sinner was forgiven when she put faith in Christ.

In Romans chapters 3 and 4 it shows that God has concluded all under sin and that Abraham was justified by faith without works.
In James it states that our works show our faith.

If one is saved by works it can only be by works showing faith in Jesus Christ. Never rituals or good deeds.

Jonathan

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hi,

Bear with me!

In the Gospel According To Luke 18:9-14

And he spake this parable to certain that trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote on his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for ebery one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In Luke 15 the account of the prodigal son shows that he who wasted his father’s substance with riotous living and harlots came to himself and after returning to his father was forgiven. Whilst the elder son who had worked hard in his father’s house was indignant, appealing to his works and was actually lost.

In Luke 7 the woman who was a sinner was forgiven when she put faith in Christ.

In Romans chapters 3 and 4 it shows that God has concluded all under sin and that Abraham was justified by faith without works.
In James it states that our works show our faith.

If one is saved by works it can only be by works showing faith in Jesus Christ. Never rituals or good deeds.

Jonathan

Who says “rituals” and “good deeds” cannot be a way of showing faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Who says “rituals” and “good deeds” cannot be a way of showing faith in Jesus Christ?

The catechism puts a lot more on them than “showing faith” showing faith is what evangelics believe about works.

1248 The catechumenate, or formation of catechumens, aims at bringing their conversion and faith to maturity, in response to the divine initiative and in union with an ecclesial community. The catechumenate is to be “a formation in the whole Christian life… during which the disciples will be joined to Christ their teacher. The catechumens should be properly initiated into the mystery of salvation and the practice of the evangelical virtues, and they should be introduced into the life of faith, liturgy, and charity of the People of God by successive sacred rites.”

 

[myfavoritmartin]

AND
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, **we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. **Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

 

[jmtosh]

Hi,

Jesus Himself in Matthew 6 warns us not to pray using vain repetition and gives us the Lord’s prayer as a pattern or model prayer.

In Matthew 23 He rebukes the Pharisees for binding men with heavy burdens, enlarging the borders of their garments to be seen of men, making long prayers for a pretence, loving the greetings of Rabbi, Rabbi, (or Master or Father), paying tithes scrupulously yet forgetting the weightier matters such as judgement, mercy and faith, cleaning the outside of the cup but leaving the inside filthy, building tombs of the prophets and garnishing the sepulchres of the righteous, for claiming that they would not have killed the prophets.

Certain rituals can show faith in Christ if the heart is right with God first. Justification and salvation can never be obtained by them. I concede that good deeds can show faith in Christ.