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jmcrae
Guest
There is only one Judgment; both of these passages (and the section in Matthew 7, as well) are speaking about the same event. There will not be more than one Judgment Day.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
I never SAID they were the whole thing but those are paragraphs as a whole that I am COMMENTING on.
Your lack of charity is par for the course, the OP asks a question I am trying fully to explain and help in the understanding why we fail to see your doctrine as being saved and you attack the explainer instead of the information supplied.
Whatever Teflon! I thought you and I were beyond this.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
If that’s what your taught…
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Teflon93
Guest
Christ in Matthew says to keep the Commandments, and also says that he came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.Nah, the OT Law, especially the 10 Commandments, doesn’t apply to us anymore. St Paul in Galatians says we’re free from the law, Tef.
If there is any seeming conflict between St Paul and Christ, am I to believe St Paul wins?
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Teflon93
Guest
I thought we were beyond the misrepresentation of Catholic teaching, MFM. I have no issue with you taking issue with that teaching; that’s what the thread is about. I do take issue with you consistently misstating and redacting from it. It is no picnic having to pull long passages simply so the lurkers, unaware of what came 5 screens back, don’t believe that the Church’s teaching is what you claim it to be.
Charity does not require paying heed to untruths.
Argue with Catholic teaching all you like—just make sure you argue with the teaching and not some false construct you’ve erected.
It’s the same with Scripture—when the question is “What did Christ say of salvation?”—it does you no good to cherrypick it. It’s too important to cherrypick. We can all wrestle with interpretation, but cannot pretend he did not say what he said.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
adding (justifying grace+ works + sanctifying grace) to FAITH to butress it shows a total LACK of faith…from the evangelical POV
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
So this brings forward the question why you did NOT respond to the post of the 15-20 verses where I called you on the table with Christ salvation comments…I’ll find it and bring it forward.
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jmcrae
Guest
If faith alone is all it takes to get into Heaven, then surely the Devil gets to go to Heaven, since he certainly has faith alone in God. He has no good works and no sanctifying grace, but he cannot help but know that God exists.
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Teflon93
Guest
Okay—how so?
How do evangelicals square this with:
- Faith without works is dead (James)
- No man can come to the Father but by the Father (Jesus)
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
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Teflon93
Guest
Please do—I’m not sure which one you’re referring to. For some, I take no issue with the text, but with the extra-Scriptural interpretation you’ve added to it.
After all, Catholics believe faith to be a requirement for salvation, though grace (justifying and sanctifying) and good works are also normally required (we all acknowledge the thief on the cross, unbaptized babies, etc represent unusual circumstances where the mercy of God is called for).
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Ridiculous you guys don’t get it belief and faith are not synonimous…Sheesh.“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1).If faith alone is all it takes to get into Heaven, then surely the Devil gets to go to Heaven, since he certainly has faith alone in God. He has no good works and no sanctifying grace, but he cannot help but know that God exists.
**It is synonymous with trust. It is a divine gift **
Rom. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
** and comes by hearing the Word of God Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
** Without faith it is impossible to please God
Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
**
It is by faith that we live our lives, **“The righteous shall live by faith,”
Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
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myfavoritmartin
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Teflon93
Guest
I did respond—I provided the fuller context of John 6, the stuff you omitted between verses.
When we read the whole, we see Christ drawing an extended parallel between God feeding the Jews with manna in Exodus and feeding them with the body and blood of Christ. Christ repeatedly points out that he is the new manna from heaven, the new bread of life, and that they will eat of him or have no life within them. Most of the disciples are so horrified by this that they leave, only the Twelve remaining.
That’s what the text says.
For Catholics, it means what it says. This is why we embrace the sacrament of the Eucharist, and why Mass is modeled on the Lord’s Supper.
For those Christians who have rejected the Eucharist, there are surely other interpretations, but they MUST address this passage, since Christ clearly indicates they who fail to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood have no life in them, another way of saying they will not be saved.
Again, it is important to acknowledge what the text says before arguing what it means.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
where is this from?
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Lampo
Guest
“If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.” - Matt. 6:14-15
To me, it sounds like you must **do **something to attain Heaven.
To me, it sounds like you must **do **something to attain Heaven.
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rlg94086
Guest
Right back at ya, bro…
Those verses need to be read in light of the following verses, so you can truly understand Scripture.
James 2:
Okay, so clearly, we are saved by faith, but faith alone cannot save you.
James 2 said:
I take it you believe James is “ridiculous” for talking about the belief of demons, when he is clearly discussing faith.
The two are related - you have faith because you believe. There is no reason to tell people they are ridiculous.
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Teflon93
Guest
As for the rest of the John passages, and given you’ve just distinguished strongly between “faith” and “belief”, you’ll need to clarify for me what you think “believeth in” and “believeth on” mean. You’ve drawn this distinction, so we’ll need you to explain why you chose passages speaking of belief to buttress a claim regarding faith if these are different things.
For my money, John 6 helps show the way. When Christ instructs the disciples to believe in him, what is it he’s asking them to believe?
That he is the bread of life, of course, and that they must eat of his flesh and drink his blood or they will have no life within them.
This is why so many fled. If you want to see how Scripture interprets Scripture, search for something like “eat flesh” and “drink blood” and you’ll see why they were so offended.
(I recommend everyone check this out at some point—I had no idea how the Eucharist had been prefigured so often throughout Scripture until I did).
Thus, I’d say “believeth in” and “believeth on” are used in the “do as I say” sense, rather than in the “I recognize you are the Christ” sense.
If I’ve got the sense of that wrong, one of my Catholic brothers and sisters will surely correct me.
For my money, John 6 helps show the way. When Christ instructs the disciples to believe in him, what is it he’s asking them to believe?
That he is the bread of life, of course, and that they must eat of his flesh and drink his blood or they will have no life within them.
This is why so many fled. If you want to see how Scripture interprets Scripture, search for something like “eat flesh” and “drink blood” and you’ll see why they were so offended.
(I recommend everyone check this out at some point—I had no idea how the Eucharist had been prefigured so often throughout Scripture until I did).
Thus, I’d say “believeth in” and “believeth on” are used in the “do as I say” sense, rather than in the “I recognize you are the Christ” sense.
If I’ve got the sense of that wrong, one of my Catholic brothers and sisters will surely correct me.
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jmtosh
Guest
Non - Catholics do not teach that one must not do good works; as Epesians 2:8 - 10 sets forth:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The essential point is that to be saved a man must first be brought to Christ (verily, verily, I say unto you The hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live).A man is saved when he is quickened or made alive by the Spirit and believes on the Son of God.
He is then to show forth the praises of Him who has called him from darkness into light.
I am not born again by being baptised as an infant. Then trying to do good works to merit acceptance on judgement day. A man is born of the Spirit when he hears the Word of God and belives. (Romans 10). Thereafter he is equipped or qualified to do good works. You can’t put the cart before the horse.
In fact there are two judgements. The judgement seat of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15. Paul first explains that he has laid the foundation of Jesus Christ in the Corinthian belivers by the grace of God. He then goes on to show that every man should take heed how he builds thereon. Every man’s work will be manifested. If the works are good works he will be rewarded. If he has no good works he will be saved but by fire (the fire tests the works) in other words he will just make it into heaven having the foundation, Christ but having no rewards. (Maybe he will be the doorkeeper?)
The great white throne judgement is 1000 years later (Rev 20:11)when the wicked dead are judged.
Matthew 25 shows that the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked be cast into everlasting punishment. The righteous are described as sheep and the wicked goats. As MFM POINTED OUT THIS IS THEIR NATURE.
The sheep entered into the joy of their Lordbecause they ministered to **His brethren **(the Jews in tribulation / fellow Christians in persecution?). They could only minister to Christ in this way because they already believed in Christ. They were not ministering to their brethren to gain salvation on the day of judgement.
The goats were cast into everlasting fire because they did not minister to His brethren. They did not minister to them because they did not believe in Christ.
Whether this description of the judgement is a summary of the two judgements described in 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20, or whether it is an additional judgement of the nations after the great tribulation I do not know. It does not however teach salvation by works.
We should all rather pray that we are worthy to stand before the Son of Man in that day!
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The essential point is that to be saved a man must first be brought to Christ (verily, verily, I say unto you The hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live).A man is saved when he is quickened or made alive by the Spirit and believes on the Son of God.
He is then to show forth the praises of Him who has called him from darkness into light.
I am not born again by being baptised as an infant. Then trying to do good works to merit acceptance on judgement day. A man is born of the Spirit when he hears the Word of God and belives. (Romans 10). Thereafter he is equipped or qualified to do good works. You can’t put the cart before the horse.
In fact there are two judgements. The judgement seat of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15. Paul first explains that he has laid the foundation of Jesus Christ in the Corinthian belivers by the grace of God. He then goes on to show that every man should take heed how he builds thereon. Every man’s work will be manifested. If the works are good works he will be rewarded. If he has no good works he will be saved but by fire (the fire tests the works) in other words he will just make it into heaven having the foundation, Christ but having no rewards. (Maybe he will be the doorkeeper?)
The great white throne judgement is 1000 years later (Rev 20:11)when the wicked dead are judged.
Matthew 25 shows that the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked be cast into everlasting punishment. The righteous are described as sheep and the wicked goats. As MFM POINTED OUT THIS IS THEIR NATURE.
The sheep entered into the joy of their Lordbecause they ministered to **His brethren **(the Jews in tribulation / fellow Christians in persecution?). They could only minister to Christ in this way because they already believed in Christ. They were not ministering to their brethren to gain salvation on the day of judgement.
The goats were cast into everlasting fire because they did not minister to His brethren. They did not minister to them because they did not believe in Christ.
Whether this description of the judgement is a summary of the two judgements described in 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20, or whether it is an additional judgement of the nations after the great tribulation I do not know. It does not however teach salvation by works.
We should all rather pray that we are worthy to stand before the Son of Man in that day!
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Teflon93
Guest
One of the passages you quoted above; I don’t have the reference handy. Is it wrong?
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