Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

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Teflon93 said:
I did respond—I provided the fuller context of John 6, the stuff you omitted between verses.

When we read the whole, we see Christ drawing an extended parallel between God feeding the Jews with manna in Exodus and feeding them with the body and blood of Christ. Christ repeatedly points out that he is the new manna from heaven, the new bread of life, and that they will eat of him or have no life within them. Most of the disciples are so horrified by this that they leave, only the Twelve remaining.

That’s what the text says.

For Catholics, it means what it says. This is why we embrace the sacrament of the Eucharist, and why Mass is modeled on the Lord’s Supper.

For those Christians who have rejected the Eucharist, there are surely other interpretations, but they MUST address this passage, since Christ clearly indicates they who fail to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood have no life in them, another way of saying they will not be saved.

Again, it is important to acknowledge what the text says before arguing what it means.
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What of chapters 11 and 12?

and Titus 3:3-7
and Ephesians 2:8-10
and Galatians 2:20-21
Or Romans
Now granted this is coming out of the incarnate Lords mouth but you can not deny it is the “word of God”
 
rlg94086 said:
Okay, so clearly, we are saved by faith, but faith alone cannot save you.
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Grace alone, Faith alone, Christ alone
rlg94086 said:
I take it you believe James is “ridiculous” for talking about the belief of demons, when he is clearly discussing faith. 🤷 The two are related - you have faith because you believe. There is no reason to tell people they are ridiculous.
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re-read what James wrote start in chapter 1
 
Teflon93 said:
One of the passages you quoted above; I don’t have the reference handy. Is it wrong?
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myfavoritmartin said:
Me thinks
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That Jesus and the Father are one:
John 14:8-10 (King James Version)
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8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
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9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
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10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
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John 14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
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That no one comes to the Father except through Christ:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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jmtosh said:
Non - Catholics do not teach that one must not do good works; as Epesians 2:8 - 10 sets forth:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
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Some do; non-Catholics are a polyglot lot. I believe there were also historical sects which took this to ridiculous lengths (my wife mentioned it; perhaps one of our historians will know).
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Of course—we do good because we are made in God’s image, and He only does good.
The essential point is that to be saved a man must first be brought to Christ (verily, verily, I say unto you The hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live).**A man is saved when he is quickened or made alive by the Spirit and believes on the Son of God. **
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Was with you right up until the last part. Whole households were baptized on the basis of the faith of the head of the household, not on the faith of the individuals within it. Likewise, we baptise children for the same reason—the faith of their parents. It is prefigured with Abraham and Isaac, where Abraham’s faith made Isaac one of God’s chosen people, and in the rite of circumcision practiced thenceforth.
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So Catholics belief faith + justifying grace (that conferred at Baptism) is a necessary component to salvation.
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He is then to show forth the praises of Him who has called him from darkness into light.
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Done throughout Mass and in personal devotions by Catholics.
I am not born again by being baptised as an infant. Then trying to do good works to merit acceptance on judgement day. A man is born of the Spirit when he hears the Word of God and belives. (Romans 10). Thereafter he is equipped or qualified to do good works. You can’t put the cart before the horse.
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And you can’t justify that from Scripture. Feel free to search out the infant baptism threads.
In fact there are two judgements. The judgement seat of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15. Paul first explains that he has laid the foundation of Jesus Christ in the Corinthian belivers by the grace of God. He then goes on to show that every man should take heed how he builds thereon. Every man’s work will be manifested. If the works are good works he will be rewarded. If he has no good works he will be saved but by fire (the fire tests the works) in other words he will just make it into heaven having the foundation, Christ but having no rewards. (Maybe he will be the doorkeeper?)
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The great white throne judgement is 1000 years later (Rev 20:11)when the wicked dead are judged.
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Christ indicates they’re simultaneous in Matthew 25. Did Darby insert a 1000-year gap in Matthew as well as Revelation?
Matthew 25 shows that the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked be cast into everlasting punishment. The righteous are described as sheep and the wicked goats. As MFM POINTED OUT THIS IS THEIR NATURE.
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Sorry, but wicked goat is all of our nature. Thanks, Adam & Eve.
The sheep entered into the joy of their Lord
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because they ministered to **His brethren **(the Jews in tribulation / fellow Christians in persecution?). They could only minister to Christ in this way because they already believed in Christ. They were not ministering to their brethren to gain salvation on the day of judgement.

So you say, but the text doesn’t speak to their motives, does it? I’d like to think the glory of God was the sole motivation myself, but Christ doesn’t so indicate.
The goats were cast into everlasting fire because they did not minister to His brethren. They did not minister to them because they did not believe in Christ.
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There is no indication that they did not; there is every indication they didn’t listen to him. Which is why if you’re not feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting the imprisoned, I suggest you do!

Not to mention partaking of the Eucharist, but you’ll have to come to RCIA for that.
Whether this description of the judgement is a summary of the two judgements described in 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20, or whether it is an additional judgement of the nations after the great tribulation I do not know. It does not however teach salvation by works.
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We should all rather pray that we are worthy to stand before the Son of Man in that day!
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Whatever “salvation by works” means in your lexicon.

Lots of cognitive dissonance here—we have to do good works, but we don’t have to do them.

Do good works matter to God or not?
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Lampo said:
Personally? Not through another source such as Scripture?
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Dude even your church is a servant to the “word of God” and even your church accepts scripture as the “word of God” so what are you getting at?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Dude even your church is a servant to the “word of God” and even your church accepts scripture as the “word of God” so what are you getting at?
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The Scriptures cannot authorize themselves: they need an impartial witness to testify to their truthfulness.

In your case, who (or what) is your witness?

(In our case, it is the Catholic Church.)
 
jmcrae said:
The Scriptures cannot authorize themselves: they need an impartial witness to testify to their truthfulness.

In your case, who (or what) is your witness?

(In our case, it is the Catholic Church.)
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Exactly. I’m just wondering if he/she realizes that he/she believes the Bible is the inspired word of God because of the authority of the Catholic Church.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Dude even your church is a servant to the “word of God” and even your church accepts scripture as the “word of God” so what are you getting at?
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Our Church is a servant to the Word of God, the second person of the Trinity. That service requires not simply Scripture, but also Magisterium and Tradition.

We can see from the cacophony of interpretations and practices outside the Catholic Church what happens when one tries to sit upon a one-legged stool.
 
Lampo said:
I want to know why you believe Scripture is the inspired word of God.
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Because it says it is and I believe it…Much like the pre nicene fathers who accepted these things without some councels stamp of approval…
If you desire to continue this discussion lets start a different thread out of respect for the OP…
FYI

Clement of Alexandria didn’t think he needed an infallible ruling from the RCC in order to recognize which books are scripture and which aren’t:

“It will naturally fall after these, after a cursory view of theology, to discuss the opinions handed down respecting prophecy; so that, having demonstrated that the Scriptures which we believe are valid from their omnipotent authority, we shall be able to go over them consecutively, and to show thence to all the heresies one God and Omnipotent Lord to be truly preached by the law and the prophets, and besides by the blessed Gospel. Many contradictions against the heterodox await us while we attempt, in writing, to do away with the force of the allegations made by them, and to persuade them against their will, proving by the Scriptures themselves…He, then, who of himself believes the Scripture and voice of the Lord, which by the Lord acts to the benefiting of men, is rightly regarded faithful. Certainly we use it as a criterion in the discovery of things. What is subjected to criticism is not believed till it is so subjected; so that what needs criticism cannot be a first principle. Therefore, as is reasonable, grasping by faith the indemonstrable first principle, and receiving in abundance, from the first principle itself, demonstrations in reference to the first principle, we are by the voice of the Lord trained up to the knowledge of the truth…Since also, in what pertains to life, craftsmen are superior to ordinary people, and model what is beyond common notions; so, consequently, we also, giving a complete exhibition of the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, from faith persuade by demonstration.” (The Stromata, 4:1, 7:16)
 
myfavoritmartin said:
adding (justifying grace+ works + sanctifying grace) to FAITH to butress it shows a total LACK of faith…from the evangelical POV
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What is the evangelical definition of faith?

Does that definition of faith include obedience?

Does God call us to just faith, or both faith and obedience?

And if God calls us to both faith and obedience, what if we only have faith but not obedience?

Are you going to say that obedience flows naturally out of faith?
 
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