Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[Pixie_Dust]

Christ in Matthew says to keep the Commandments, and also says that he came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

Yes I know - I was joking around a bit. Hence the winking smilies.

If there is any seeming conflict between St Paul and Christ, am I to believe St Paul wins?

Sometimes it honestly seemed that way when I was a Baptist and we had sermon series and Sunday School quarterlies devoted to Ephesians, Colossians and Galatians but rarely on the Gospels.

 

[jmcrae]

Because it says it is and I believe it…Much like the pre nicene fathers who accepted these things without some councels stamp of approval…
If you desire to continue this discussion lets start a different thread out of respect for the OP

Even the Nicean Fathers didn’t have a Bible yet - the Bible didn’t come for another 80 years after that. “Holy writings,” yes (including not only what was ultimately included in the Bible, but also the Didache, Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians, the Protoevangelium of James, the Martyrdom of Polycarp, and the Shepherd of Hamas), but no Bible, as such.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What is the evangelical definition of faith?

Heb 11:1
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Even the Nicean Fathers didn’t have a Bible yet - the Bible didn’t come for another 80 years after that. “Holy writings,” yes (including not only what was ultimately included in the Bible, but also the Didache, Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians, the Protoevangelium of James, the Martyrdom of Polycarp, and the Shepherd of Hamas), but no Bible, as such.

Yeah so what they had Holy Scripture dating all the way back to Moses, ever read
2 chron 34 about King Josiah?
19 When the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his robes. 20 He gave these orders to Hilkiah, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Abdon son of Micah, [a] Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 21 “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the remnant in Israel and Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that is poured out on us because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written in this book.”

 

[Teflon93]

Heb 11:1
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

And the distinction you drew between faith and belief above is…?

 

[Lampo]

Because it says it is and I believe it…Much like the pre nicene fathers who accepted these things without some councels stamp of approval…
If you desire to continue this discussion lets start a different thread out of respect for the OP…

Here is the new thread.

 

[Teflon93]

Yeah so what they had Holy Scripture dating all the way back to Moses, ever read 1 king 12 about King Josiah?

Tradition preceded Scripture by a long way. Writing is a comparitively recent development.

Abraham didn’t keep a diary, nor did Adam and Eve.

Before Scripture was written, it was lived, and passed on through Tradition.

For Christ did not come to write a book, but to save us through the greatest work of good undertaken since the Creation itself—the Death on the Cross and the Resurrection.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What is the evangelical definition of faith?

Does that definition of faith include obedience?

Does God call us to just faith, or both faith and obedience?

And if God calls us to both faith and obedience, what if we only have faith but not obedience?

Are you going to say that obedience flows naturally out of faith?

Yes we are called to be obedient…It is not salvation related but if you love Him you’ll keep His commandments.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Tradition preceded Scripture by a long way. Writing is a comparitively recent development.

Abraham didn’t keep a diary, nor did Adam and Eve.

Before Scripture was written, it was lived, and passed on through Tradition.

For Christ did not come to write a book, but to save us through the greatest work of good undertaken since the Creation itself—the Death on the Cross and the Resurrection.

2nd Chronicles
14 And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, **Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses. **15 And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan.
16 And Shaphan carried the book to the king, and brought the king word back again, saying, All that was committed to thy servants, they do it.
17 And they have gathered together the money that was found in the house of the LORD, and have delivered it into the hand of the overseers, and to the hand of the workmen.
18 Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
19 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes.
20 And the king commanded Hilkiah, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Abdon the son of Micah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king’s, saying,
21 Go, enquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book.
22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they spake to her to that effect.
23 And she answered them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell ye the man that sent you to me,
24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah:
25 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Non - Catholics do not teach that one must not do good works; as Epesians 2:8 - 10 sets forth:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The essential point is that to be saved a man must first be brought to Christ (verily, verily, I say unto you The hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live).A man is saved when he is quickened or made alive by the Spirit and believes on the Son of God.

So only men can be saved? (Just kidding.)

He is then to show forth the praises of Him who has called him from darkness into light.

I am not born again by being baptised as an infant. Then trying to do good works to merit acceptance on judgement day. A man is born of the Spirit when he hears the Word of God and belives. (Romans 10). Thereafter he is equipped or qualified to do good works. You can’t put the cart before the horse.

Jesus says we must be born of water and the Spirit. That’s baptism, my friend, and it makes no difference if one is brought to Christ (your words above) as an infant who is then raised in the faith and grows into their ability to understand the things of God. Being saved is not a one-time, pray a prayer done deal. We must take up our cross daily and decide to follow Jesus. Salvation is a process. The Bible says we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Our salvation is not completed until we leave this earthly body and enter into His rest.

In fact there are two judgements. The judgement seat of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15. Paul first explains that he has laid the foundation of Jesus Christ in the Corinthian belivers by the grace of God. He then goes on to show that every man should take heed how he builds thereon. Every man’s work will be manifested. If the works are good works he will be rewarded. If he has no good works he will be saved but by fire (the fire tests the works) in other words he will just make it into heaven having the foundation, Christ but having no rewards. (Maybe he will be the doorkeeper?)

The great white throne judgement is 1000 years later (Rev 20:11)when the wicked dead are judged.

Matthew 25 shows that the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked be cast into everlasting punishment. The righteous are described as sheep and the wicked goats. As MFM POINTED OUT THIS IS THEIR NATURE.

The sheep entered into the joy of their Lordbecause they ministered to **His brethren **(the Jews in tribulation / fellow Christians in persecution?). They could only minister to Christ in this way because they already believed in Christ. They were not ministering to their brethren to gain salvation on the day of judgement.

The goats were cast into everlasting fire because they did not minister to His brethren. They did not minister to them because they did not believe in Christ.

Whether this description of the judgement is a summary of the two judgements described in 1 Cor 3 and Rev 20, or whether it is an additional judgement of the nations after the great tribulation I do not know.

Where does the Bible say that these are two different judgments? Jesus says he will come again. Not again to meet us half-way, and then again seven years later to judge.

It does not however teach salvation by works.

We should all rather pray that we are worthy to stand before the Son of Man in that day!

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach salvation solely by works, either, despite what you may have heard. Salvation is not by works alone any more than it’s by faith alone. It’s not either/or, it’s both/and. As the Bible clearly teaches, true Faith WORKS.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach salvation solely by works, either, despite what you may have heard. Salvation is not by works alone any more than it’s by faith alone. It’s not either/or, it’s both/and. As the Bible clearly teaches, true Faith WORKS.

The only works that aid salvaation is CHRISTS work on the cross…PERIOD.
He did the work for all of us, PRAISE HIM! you don’t add to it. If you love Him then you’ll keep His commandments.

 

[jmcrae]

The only works that aid salvaation is CHRISTS work on the cross…PERIOD.
He did the work for all of us, PRAISE HIM! you don’t add to it. If you love Him then you’ll keep His commandments.

Including His commandments to be baptized, to receive Holy Communion, to go to Mass, and to go to Confession?

Or only those commandments of His that you happen to like, or that suit your present lifestyle?

 

[qui_est_ce]

It doesn’t need to be because verse 34 shows that the works can NOT be meritorius as you suggest…rather predestined

OK, I had a dr appt this am, and am just back - 7 pages later.

I did NOT SAY that works were meritorious. You stated this passage refers to believers. You questioned me

Christine who are the goats according to Rome?
You don’t think the goats are the unbelievers rather they are the undoers? is that what your suggesting?

YUP, I don’t suggest that, that’s what JESUS said. They are the people who are supposed to live out their faith, and they didn’t.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

God has prepared a place for all, Jesus died for all. God predestined ALL to be saved. Some choose not to accept God’s gifts and are therefore banished into the fiery furnace for eternity.

There is a whole discourse in Matthew 25 about what one needs to do to live out their faith, and again you take ONE VERSE, make your personal interpretation, and decide the whole discourse is irrelevant.

You have to twist that they were believers because of your “faith alone” mis doctrine.

 

[Lampo]

The only works that aid salvaation is CHRISTS work on the cross…PERIOD.
He did the work for all of us, PRAISE HIM! you don’t add to it. If you love Him then you’ll keep His commandments.

myfavoritmartin…Must you forgive others that have sinned against you in order for your sins to be forgiven by your Father in Heaven? Must your sins be forgiven by Him in order to get to Heaven?

 

[Lampo]

The only works that aid salvaation is CHRISTS work on the cross…PERIOD.
He did the work for all of us, PRAISE HIM! you don’t add to it. If you love Him then you’ll keep His commandments.

John 3:16 says nothing about loving God.

 

[jmtosh]

So only men can be saved? (Just kidding.)

Jesus says we must be born of water and the Spirit. That’s baptism, my friend, and it makes no difference if one is brought to Christ (your words above) as an infant who is then raised in the faith and grows into their ability to understand the things of God. Being saved is not a one-time, pray a prayer done deal. We must take up our cross daily and decide to follow Jesus. Salvation is a process. The Bible says we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Our salvation is not completed until we leave this earthly body and enter into His rest.

**In John 3 Jesus says that 5 and 6 Jesus says Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man (adult person / woman even! ) be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

Jesus was here showing that there is a natural birth (water / flesh) and a Spiritual birth. He further clarifies this explanation by saying that as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of Man be lifted up that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

In 1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…

This teaches that baptism cannot wash away the filth of the flesh but the obedience of conscience by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.**Where does the Bible say that these are two different judgments? Jesus says he will come again. Not again to meet us half-way, and then again seven years later to judge.

**In Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his markupon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
…And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

See also Jude 24. I Thessalonians 4:13 and 2 Thess 2. **
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach salvation solely by works, either, despite what you may have heard. Salvation is not by works alone any more than it’s by faith alone. It’s not either/or, it’s both/and. As the Bible clearly teaches, true Faith WORKS.

Glad to hear it!

 

[jmtosh]

Exactly. I’m just wondering if he/she realizes that he/she believes the Bible is the inspired word of God because of the authority of the Catholic Church.

The bible is the Word of God on its own authority, believe it or not the word of God existed before the RCC. God has given all judgement to the Son not to the Church which is Christ’s mystical or spiritual body.

I believe the scripture you are enquiring after is 2 Peter 1:20,21 -
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake moved by the Holy Ghost.

And:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…

 

[Lampo]

The bible is the Word of God on its own authority, believe it or not the word of God existed before the RCC. God has given all judgement to the Son not to the Church which is Christ’s mystical or spiritual body.

I believe the scripture you are enquiring after is 2 Peter 1:20,21 -
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake moved by the Holy Ghost.

And:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…

Okay, why do **you **believe that to be true? Why do **you **believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God? Because the Bible tells you so? The Koran says *it *is the inspired word of God too. Do you believe the Koran?

This is addressed in this thread.

 

[jmcrae]

The bible is the Word of God on its own authority, believe it or not the word of God existed before the RCC.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, and has existed from Eternity.

The Bible as a singular entity began to exist in 405 AD, after its canon (table of contents) was infallibly decreed by Pope Innocent I.

The holy books that comprise the Bible began to exist in the time of Moses, when he began to write the Book of Genesis. These books continued to be written (alongside thousands and thousands of other books on the subject of man’s relationship with God) from the time of Moses - call it 1440 BC to coincide with the giving of the 10 Commandments - until the death of the Apostle John in 95 AD.

The start date of the Catholic Church is 30 AD, some sixty five years before the Bible was finished being written, let alone compiled, translated, copied, and published.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Jesus died for all. God predestined ALL to be saved. .

Nope and Nope.

Jesus died for many.
If God predistined all to be saved all would be saved.