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Church_Militant
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Still misunderstanding it…
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Church_Militant
Guest
Yeah , but your doctrinal ancestors should have considered that when they concocted Sola Scriptura, which makes the Assumption of Mary look like a Biblical sure thing by comparison.
Furthermore, historic accounts can add light to modern discussions.
Personally ther Assumption is not problematic to me at all.
Reasons Why I Believe in The Blessed Virgin Mary’s Assumption
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ChrisWRIT
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The short answer is because they hold to the claim that we are saved by “faith alone”.
If faith is accompanied by anything else, it is not “alone”, thus, we must not be saved, so are hellbound. :bigyikes:
JMTosh & MFM reflect this outlook quite well, even if they deny saying that Catholics are hellbound.
Not outright, but your constant insistence on anti-catholic claims that “prove” we are “apostate” & “blasphemous” certainly do so in a passive-aggressive way, especially given your imperviousness to those who have repeatedly provided answers to your objections.
Here we return, as usual to the insistence on “faith alone”, which is the basis for Protestant belief in whether anyone is going o heaven or hell.
Pardon me, machine gun Kelley, but perhaps I can offer a few answers to your plethora of objections to our “BLASPHEMOUS APOSTASY & EVIL”!!!
**The use & veneration of images, including the crucifix **
If Catholics are guilty of idolatry for the existence of images, so are Protestants, with their reverence for the empty cross. (Or are only Catholic images & items “idolatrous”?
)Catholics don’t worship the crucifix – Christ came to die, not to live. The crucifix reminds us that His death on the cross was the atoning sacrifice that purchased our redemption, not his resurrection!
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
Prayer to Mary & the saints
First, scripture doesn’t define spiritism, but the dictionary does: “Spiritism” is the belief that the dead communicate with the living.
That noted, Protestants believe that the saints in heaven are dead, while Catholics recognize that “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” If one dies in Christ & goes to heaven, are they dead or alive?
Prayer is not worship, and we are exhorted by Paul to pray for one another, & to ask for others to pray for us. The other members of the body of Christ, including those in Heaven, can also pray with & for us.
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Your loss. “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful & effective.” (James 5:16)
I’d be willing to bet that Mary & the saints in heaven are a bit more righteous than me or anyone of the other people living on earth are. After all, nothing unclean will enter heaven, right?
Apparently, you have only read more anti-Catholic nonsense than Chick Tracts. Your statement that he is “a bit of a cowboy” is an insult to real cowboys, who typically KNOW what they are talking about.
Purgatory
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
Priestly celibacy
Priests are required to voluntarily take a vow of celibacy before ordination, and only in the Latin Rite. Nonetheless, there are married priests in all rites, including the Latin Rite.
The woman in Rev 12
Given that she is clothed with the sun, & crowned with 12 stars, with the moon at her feet, I don’t think this lady is the maid!
Genesis 37:9 has nothing to do with this.
Rev. 12:5
“She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.”
Who might that child be? Who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter”? Rev. 19:15-16 shows that it is Jesus. Come to think of it, I believe that Jesus was also “snatched up to God and to His throne” at the ascension.
Who gave birth to Jesus?
Cheers,
Chris
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Church_Militant
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Then explain to us the justifications for the following errant teachings prevalent among modern post reformation n-Cs.
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
OSAS/Eternal Security of the Believer
The Rapture
Baptism as not sacramental washing away of sins.
The rejection of sacramental confession of sins after baptism.
The rejection of the Eucharistic Real Presence in sacramental communion.
The abridging of the Word of God by removal of writings that were accepted as inspired canon by the earliest Christian councils.
All of those are the teachings of men, not the Word of God nor or the historical Christian Church, (namely, the Catholic Church).
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ChrisWRIT
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:yup:
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Church_Militant
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to her I have never that I can recall said you “worshipped” her.And even that statement is grossly incorrect.
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Church_Militant
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Yet that more aptly applies to the reformers and their modern doctrinal step children, as I’ve pointed out before.
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Church_Militant
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Desiring to repent and especially “seeking God” are both works.G it appears you believe WRONGLY that a prayer saves youThe prayer does nothing it is the desire to repent and seek God that opens yourself to the HS to indwell within you and regenerate you as a member of “the body of Christ”.
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Church_Militant
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No…
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged, 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
I don’t see anything in the New Testament that tells me to go around “inspecting fruit”.
Why don’t you worry more about Christian faith and less about the Moslems? The fact is that if we believers were more conscientious about living out our faith in Christ then the Moslems might be more impressed with us. Some might even be moved by the Holy Spirit to convert.Faith in Christ, because it does seem to indicate the plan of salvation includes them yet they say belief in Christ is blasphemy to allah and scripture says “know not me and you know not the father” So they don’t know the father yet are in the salvation plan
The problem is not with the documents but with your messed up reading and understanding of them. I often suspect that you do not wish to accept the factual explanation of Catholics simply because it means that all that a-C propaganda you’ve bought into is fallacious, (to say it nicely) and then that means that you have been misled and cannot trust the sources you relied on for it.
I don’t think many n-Cs are willing to think that rationally and logically.
In your all too often errant opinion.
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Church_Militant
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Yet this contradicts the plain text of the Word of God as I’ve posted several times before.
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guanophore
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Right, but if sin separates one from God before the prayer, why would sin not separate the person AFTER the prayer?G it appears you believe WRONGLY that a prayer saves you
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Teflon93
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Switch your terminology and add Christ’s requirement that we confess to one another and you’re describing the sacrament of penance, MFM.
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Teflon93
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Wish I could claim credit for that insight—I just finished reading Patrick Madrid’s “Pope Fiction” and that one stayed with me.
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Teflon93
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A feisty debate as usual.
I still do not comprehend, despite various attempts, how living out our faith (thus showing the fruits of it) and not living out our faith (thus demonstrating we lack complete faith in the Lord) are BOTH required by Protestants.
Can it be that this cognitive dissonance is explained by simple tribalism—that unless one subscribes to, say, Southern Baptist doctrine and thus define your works only through that lens, we are hellbound?
All that dancin’ and drinkin’ surely ticks somebody off, right?
I still do not comprehend, despite various attempts, how living out our faith (thus showing the fruits of it) and not living out our faith (thus demonstrating we lack complete faith in the Lord) are BOTH required by Protestants.
Can it be that this cognitive dissonance is explained by simple tribalism—that unless one subscribes to, say, Southern Baptist doctrine and thus define your works only through that lens, we are hellbound?
All that dancin’ and drinkin’ surely ticks somebody off, right?
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guanophore
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Do you not agree that Jesus taught that some become eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of God? The Latin Rite prefers to choose priests from among those so called, so that they can focus their attention on the Church.
What do images have to do with the gospel?
If they detract from Christ, then I suggest that you not use them. The second commandment is about worship. Catholics do not worship images.
We preach Christ crucified. For the illiterate, which was most of the world at one time, the visual image emphasizes the reality. Catholics don’t worship the wood. I do not understand what you mean here by fetishism, but if you think there is some sort of “magic” in the crucifix, your faith is too weak, and it would be better if you did not wear or carry one.
Scripture is saying that a Bishop must not have been married more than once. It is not a requirement to be married in order to be a bishop. If this were the case, both Jesus and Paul would be disqualifying themselves. Peter was married, but there is no evidence that he returned to his married life after he was called.
[/QUOTE]To enforce celibacy of Priests is unscriptural and is described as a doctrine of seducing spirits 1 Timothy 4:1-3.
None of the Catholic teachings come from scripture. All of Catholicism was complete and entire before a word of the Bible was written. The Authority of the Church comes from Jesus, through the Apostles.
Catholics believe that those who leave this earth in Christ live forever. We believe in the communion of saints, in that not even death can separate us from the love of God. Mary’s role in salvation history does nothing but support the High Priesthood of Christ.
It is a long story, and probably needs it’s own thread. However, I asked for a blasphemous teaching, and the Catholic Church does not teach this, therefore, can you choose something else?
That’s great!Catholics believe that the effectual fervent prayers of the righteous avail much. Those who have gone on before us in the faith are perfected, and there fore, their prayers are even more powerful than those of us who are still in this world of sin.
If you think his motives are noble, then that puts you in very bad company.
It appears there is a great deal about your family history that you don’t know. You have been given a great deal of misinformation about Catholicism. Catholics wrote, preserved, protected, canonized and promulgated the Scripture. There is nothing in it that conflicts with Church Teaching. They both have the same Source.
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guanophore
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Well, ok, but you do realize that was not it’s original purpose, rigtht? What you are citing here is an abuse. On the contrary, the serpent was made by the command of God for the purpose of healing. You are saying it is wrong to make images, but it is not. What may be wrong is how they are used.
Well, since ALL of the Catholic teachings preceeded the bible of course none of them are “borne out” of it! On the contrary, the Bible reflects the Catholic teaching that preceeded it.
Most of what you are saying here are practices, and not Teachings. Apparently you do not distinguish between the two, but it is important to do so. For example, Eastern Catholics have no statues, and most do not use a Rosary, because it is a Latin custom.
All Catholics are pray to the saints, at least during liturgy. Catholics see many of these practices in Scripture.
This is not accurate either (about who could read the Bible) but I think that needs to go on the Scripture thread too. I don’t disagree about corruption in the clergy. However, that does not make the Teaching of the church corrupt, any more than Judas being corrupt makes Jesus’ teaching wrong. Men are always in need of reform.
No, the doctrine that the faithful are to believe and practice comes to us from Jesus through the Apostles. It is brought forward each generation by the Magesterium, which is the body of bishops all over the world. I think, if you study this, you will see that the “infallible” actions of the Pope are really a very small speck in a large body of doctrine.
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Holly3278
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Various reasons. Some of them are just ignorant and others are just plain bigoted.
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Pier
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I agree…
It’s what they’ve been taught, some since childhood. I know one former Protestant, who was all about the “protest” anti-Catholic part of it, and none of the religious part whatsoever, because it was all he knew…
His name is Joseph Pearce.
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea2.asp
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guanophore
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Yes, this is what Catholics do as well. We ATTEMPT not to do so, so as not to spurn the holy sacrifice of the cross. Then, whe we add to our faith, we are accused of trying to rely on our own works to get us to heaven.
" For this very reason **make every effort to supplement your faith ** with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins." 2 Peter 1:5-9
We make effort, and add to faith because we have been cleansed from our old sins.
I am confused about this. It seems quite clear in this passage from Peter that** “For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you…” **.
HOw is this not assurance? How is it we are not hopeful, when these qualities are present in our lives, that we are not being kept?
I agree, I have met some Catholics on this board that qualify in both categories. Let me ask you this. Let’s say an ignorant and just plain bigoted Catholic watches an evangelical program one day, becomes convicted by the HS, prays the prayer of repentance (asks Jesus into his heart to be his personal Lord and Saviour). Now, he still may not know he is ignorant and bigoted. Will these sins keep him out of heaven?
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jmtosh
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When I said “you” I was implying the RCC as an institution. Are you saying that one cannot apply the sayings of Jesus to the Pharisees to our own lives or draw parallels today?
In view of your own comments about Protestant exegesis the whole point of Exegesis is to bring out what the passage is saying.
Catholic exegesis leaves a lot to be desired.
Read Luke chapters 1 and 2 and then tell me how you arrive at the conclusion that Mary was an Immaculate Conception and from thenceforth may be not only be called blessed but may be prayed to and approached as a Mediatrix. By pulling two verses completely out of context - Luke 1: 28 and Luke1: 48.
Luke 1:47 is mangled to mean that Jesus saved her before she was born or when she was born.
Completely ignore Luke 1:30 where Mary finds favour or grace with God (as did Noah).
Ignore also the fact that Mary brught a sin offering in Luke 2: 24.
In fact the whole of Catholic doctrine is selective and leans more on Chuch tradition to interpret scripture than the proper way of using scripture to formulate Church doctrine.
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