Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

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The idea is that God will prevent you from doing so. It’s not a self-righteous idea. Committing a sin is not what shows your Christianity to be unreal. Deliberately remaining in sin and failing to repent would do that.
This makes no sense.

The first trouble is that people who believe such a thing simultaneously do not believe that God prevents one man—the Pope—from error when teaching dogmatically on a matter of faith and morals, yet believe God prevents EVERY “saved” person from committing ANY sin?

That’s ludicrous.

The second trouble is that anyone can test this. Try to sin. If you can, you aren’t saved, according to this logic.

So what then?
 
This makes no sense.

The first trouble is that people who believe such a thing simultaneously do not believe that God prevents one man—the Pope—from error when teaching dogmatically on a matter of faith and morals, yet believe God prevents EVERY “saved” person from committing ANY sin?

That’s ludicrous.

The second trouble is that anyone can test this. Try to sin. If you can, you aren’t saved, according to this logic.

So what then?
I agree, but this doesn’t address the antinomian version of OSAS which believes sin does not matter. Anyone here subscribe to this view?
 
This makes no sense.

The first trouble is that people who believe such a thing simultaneously do not believe that God prevents one man—the Pope—from error when teaching dogmatically on a matter of faith and morals, yet believe God prevents EVERY “saved” person from committing ANY sin?

That’s ludicrous.

The second trouble is that anyone can test this. Try to sin. If you can, you aren’t saved, according to this logic.

So what then?
I did not say that in this theology God prevents you from sinning. I said that God prevents you from willfully and unrepentantly persisting in sin. There is of course a lot of room for interpretation in terms of how long a true Christian might persist in sin, so the difference between traditional Calvinists and antinomians is more of a spectrum than a sharp division.

But by and large my experience is that Calvinists are among the strictest Christians and the most worried about sin (perhaps next to my own Holiness tradition, in its Midwestern version–Southern “Holiness” folks are much more relaxed, and indeed antinomianism seems to be pervasive across much of Southern Protestantism).

I agree of course that someone who holds to this view cannot refuse to entertain the possibility that God might choose to allow only the elect to become Pope. What most Protestants have a problem with is the idea that God would grant a charism of infallibility to a person who was not truly regenerate/elect. We all agree that there have been Popes who were about as likely to have been reprobate as anyone. I would also agree that while the Catholic concept of infallibility is different (because it’s separate both from moral character and from final salvation), it is no more absurd than the Calvinist view of OSAS. I don’t think that’s the issue. The question is whether God has promised either infallibility to Popes or perseverance to all the regenerate. I am quite certain that He has not promised the latter, and I am unconvinced that He has promised the former. I don’t think either view is obviously absurd.

Edwin
 
I agree, but this doesn’t address the antinomian version of OSAS which believes sin does not matter. Anyone here subscribe to this view?
I had one coworker whom I believe fit this category. He was a self-described Fundamentalist who was arguing with me that all sin is equal in the eyes of God (e.g. white lie=murder), and I think that forced him into an antinomian position. Of course, he knew that he was one of the “elect,” so he was in good shape. 😉 👍
 
I did not say that in this theology God prevents you from sinning. I said that God prevents you from willfully and unrepentantly persisting in sin. There is of course a lot of room for interpretation in terms of how long a true Christian might persist in sin, so the difference between traditional Calvinists and antinomians is more of a spectrum than a sharp division.
Okay, but do OSAS advocates hold this view? MFM seems to indicate if you sin you’re not “really” saved in various responses above.
But by and large my experience is that Calvinists are among the strictest Christians and the most worried about sin (perhaps next to my own Holiness tradition, in its Midwestern version–Southern “Holiness” folks are much more relaxed, and indeed antinomianism seems to be pervasive across much of Southern Protestantism).
Some of them, surely. Indeed, they’ve extended the bounds of sin in some cases to practices such as drinking and dancing, and, as I’ve alluded to before, even go so far as to Bowdlerize references in the Bible to such practices. My Pentecostal pastor used to routinely change references in the Bible from wine to grape juice, despite the fact that it was impossible to prevent grape juice from fermenting into wine (particularly in the desert!) before Welch figured out how to pasteurize it in the 1830s.
I agree of course that someone who holds to this view cannot refuse to entertain the possibility that God might choose to allow only the elect to become Pope. What most Protestants have a problem with is the idea that God would grant a charism of infallibility to a person who was not truly regenerate/elect. We all agree that there have been Popes who were about as likely to have been reprobate as anyone. I would also agree that while the Catholic concept of infallibility is different (because it’s separate both from moral character and from final salvation), it is no more absurd than the Calvinist view of OSAS. I don’t think that’s the issue. The question is whether God has promised either infallibility to Popes or perseverance to all the regenerate. I am quite certain that He has not promised the latter, and I am unconvinced that He has promised the former. I don’t think either view is obviously absurd.
I think you’re missing the inherent contradiction. The OSASer and others reject the notion that the Holy Spirit infallibly guides one man—the Pope—in one area—dogmatic teaching regarding faith and morals, and yet believe it infallibly guides ALL of them in such practices as reading the Bible or job selection. It IS absurd, and completely irreconcilable to their complaint about papal infallibility.
 
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But by and large my experience is that Calvinists are among the strictest Christians and the most worried about sin (perhaps next to my own Holiness tradition, in its Midwestern version–Southern “Holiness” folks are much more relaxed, and indeed antinomianism seems to be pervasive across much of Southern Protestantism).

it is no more absurd than the Calvinist view of OSAS. I don’t think that’s the issue. .

Edwin
Now I’m confused. What is Southern Holiness? If you are talking about Southern Baptists, they come across as quite worried about sin - no smoking, no drinking, no dancing, etc.

Regarding Calvinism, how are they OSAS? Are they not "pre-determined to have been saved? So sin wouldn’t matter to them right?

The only antimonium argument for falling into sin that I have ever is that the sinner was never really “saved” in the first place.

None of which makes any sense because if OSAS were really true, then falling into sin shouldn’t matter.
 
Now I’m confused. What is Southern Holiness? If you are talking about Southern Baptists, they come across as quite worried about sin - no smoking, no drinking, no dancing, etc.
“Holiness” is its own style of religion - snake-handling, singing/chanting in “tongues,” etc.
Regarding Calvinism, how are they OSAS? Are they not "pre-determined to have been saved? So sin wouldn’t matter to them right?
The difference between a Calvinist and an OSAS believer is that the OSAS believer “got saved” during his lifetime at a particular moment; the Calvinist “got saved” on a particular Friday afternoon at exactly 3:00 pm in 33 AD - that is, at the very moment of the Crucifixion
The only antimonium argument for falling into sin that I have ever is that the sinner was never really “saved” in the first place.
None of which makes any sense because if OSAS were really true, then falling into sin shouldn’t matter.
I have heard people refer to Bill Clinton as a “saved sinner” - that his sins, though not a good witness, don’t harm his chances for salvation. This type of OSAS believer avoids sin in order to convert others to their OSAS belief - they don’t think sin has any actual effect on themselves, as such.
 
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The difference between a Calvinist and an OSAS believer is that the OSAS believer “got saved” during his lifetime at a particular moment; the Calvinist “got saved” on a particular Friday afternoon at exactly 3:00 pm in 33 AD - that is, at the very moment of the Crucifixion
How do Calvinists know who’s is predestined to Heaven and who’s predestined to Hell?
I have heard people refer to Bill Clinton as a “saved sinner” - that his sins, though not a good witness, don’t harm his chances for salvation. This type of OSAS believer avoids sin in order to convert others to their OSAS belief - they don’t think sin has any actual effect on themselves, as such.
Thanks for clearing this up.
 
How do Calvinists know who’s is predestined to Heaven and who’s predestined to Hell?
Thanks for clearing this up.
By the expression on their faces. The Elect look like they just swallowed rotten lemons. 😉

(Sorry - just kidding. I actually don’t know.)
 
I hate to barge in so please forgive me, but this subject is VERY odd to me!

I asked this question on a non-Catholic Site and got no responce, maybe I stumped them!

Here is my question for them:

For those Protestants that believe BOTH in the OSAS AND that Catholics are going to Hell, Where am I?

I am a former Protestant for many years, was definately a “Saved” Protestant, was on the board and a Deacon, the whole nine yards.

I converted and became Catholic, in doing so, obviously I did not deny the Divinity of Jesus, or my original Profession of faith, my new Catholic faith is the fufillment of my faith, not a new faith.

Where does that put me according to them?

Thank you for letting me barge in, and God Bless!
 
Now I’m confused. What is Southern Holiness? If you are talking about Southern Baptists, they come across as quite worried about sin - no smoking, no drinking, no dancing, etc.
Southern Protestants generally are selectively strict on certain cultural issues. This is perhaps an unfair judgment, but I did grow up in the South, so I’ll go ahead and say it: I think that Southern Protestantism tends to identify holiness with cultural identifiers that make it clear that you are one of the “good ol’ boys” and not the “enemy” (evil Northern liberals). There is a lot of tolerance for moral slip-ups that do not violate these cultural identifiers. Sin is seen as something to be avoided but something which cannot possibly affect your salvation in any way, and only some Southern Baptists (usually those most influenced by genuine Calvinism) affirm the corollary that a believer will persevere in the pursuit of holiness and will not deliberately remain in unrepentant sin.

Here’s a simpler way of putting it: Southern Baptists have certain ideas about what is and is not sinful that are stricter than those held by other Christians. But their attitude toward the consequences of committing sin is not that strict at all. To some extent this is simply something that always goes along with “cultural religion”–as long as you acknowledge the predominant church’s definitions of sin and acknowledge that what you are doing is sin, the church doesn’t care that much about the fact that you do sin. At the risk of being called anti-Catholic, I’ll say that by and large this is characteristic of Catholic cultures as well. However, two things make this problem particularly bad among Southern Baptists: the strong link in the postbellum South between religion and cultural/regional loyalty (with a defensive, paranoid attitude toward outsiders), and the doctrine of OSAS. This produces the result that as long as you say the right things about what is and is not true Christianity, what you actually do doesn’t matter a whole lot. In the Southern Baptist church I attended for a while as a child, my Sunday School teacher’s husband abandoned her for a younger woman, who happened to be the daughter of one of the church elders. He was able to divorce his wife and marry his mistress without (as far as I remember) any negative consequences whatsoever. I don’t think that this was an exceptional case. (My family spoke out against the church’s tolerance of this situation and eventually stopped attending that church–this was one of the events that led us to distance ourselves from Southern Baptists, though we later found another preacher we liked and attended his church for a while.) This laxity is explicitly justified in terms of the doctrines of sola fide and OSAS.

This attitude infects much of Southern Protestantism, including traditions that you would expect to have a very different approach. Hence my remark about “Southern Holiness.” The “Holiness movement” from which I come was, in its original Northern form, an extremely rigorous movement with a strong emphasis on godly living, complete dedication to God, and care for the poor. It was linked closely to movements like abolitionism and “temperance” (i.e., prohibition). It also gave rise to the Pentecostal movement. By and large, in the North these two things (Holiness and Pentecostal) are distinct and even mutually hostile. In the South there are a few of my kind of “Holiness” folks, but generally the word “Holiness” is likely to mean “Pentecostal,” especially in rural areas. This Southern (usually Pentecostal) Holiness tradition talks about entire sanctification and has strict standards in terms of dress, TV-watching, etc. But again it tends to some extent to be a matter of cultural identifiers. (The Southern “Holiness” preacher in Robert Duvall’s wonderful movie The Apostle is not an entirely atypical figure. And a number of the more scurrilous TV-preachers come from that background (Oral Roberts, for instance, who belonged to the Pentecostal Holiness Church before going off on his own). There’s a lot that is admirable in this Southern Holiness tradition as well–I don’t want to make it out as all bad. Many of them are extremely critical of the prosperity gospel and the televangelists and really do hold up high standards for the Christian life. (In fact, the Holiness movement in general errs in the direction of neurotic legalism!) My point is simply that they are still affected by the general trend of Southern Protestantism.
Regarding Calvinism, how are they OSAS?
They invented the idea, although they generally prefer to use the term “Perseverance of the Saints” to make it clear that they don’t stand with the antinomians.
Are they not "pre-determined to have been saved? So sin wouldn’t matter to them right?
No, absolutely wrong. This is a common misconception and it is the very opposite of the truth. Almost all Calvinists agree with Augustine and Aquinas that God predestines the means along with the end (though they disagree with Catholic Augustinianism/Thomism in denying that God predestines anyone to grace whom He does not also predestine to glory–that is one way of stating the basic concept of OSAS). Predestination absolutely does not mean that you will be saved no matter what you do. It means that God directs you toward eternal life as an archer shoots an arrow at a target (God, being an infallible archer, never misses). The arrow isn’t teleported to the target. It passes through the intervening space. Similarly, a Christian who is among the elect will repent and believe and persevere in doing good works. God will make sure (without violating the integrity of the person’s intellect and will) that this happens.

Edwin
 
“Holiness” is its own style of religion - snake-handling, singing/chanting in “tongues,” etc.
Only a very tiny minority of Southern Holiness/Pentecostals handle snakes. And you are speaking specifically of the Southern variety. In the North the word “Holiness” usually does not refer to Pentecostals.

Edwin
 
By the expression on their faces. The Elect look like they just swallowed rotten lemons. 😉

(Sorry - just kidding. I actually don’t know.)
:eek:
The Elect wear matching turtlenecks, just like on the old Batman TV show.
:eek: :eek:
I asked this question on a non-Catholic Site and got no responce, maybe I stumped them!
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Thank you for letting me barge in, and God Bless!
PC_Master is not on this thread monitoring who and what are allowed to post, so feel free to participate 👍
 
They invented the idea, although they generally prefer to use the term “Perseverance of the Saints” to make it clear that they don’t stand with the antinomians.

No, absolutely wrong. This is a common misconception and it is the very opposite of the truth. Almost all Calvinists agree with Augustine and Aquinas that God predestines the means along with the end (though they disagree with Catholic Augustinianism/Thomism in denying that God predestines anyone to grace whom He does not also predestine to glory–that is one way of stating the basic concept of OSAS). Predestination absolutely does not mean that you will be saved no matter what you do. It means that God directs you toward eternal life as an archer shoots an arrow at a target (God, being an infallible archer, never misses). The arrow isn’t teleported to the target. It passes through the intervening space. Similarly, a Christian who is among the elect will repent and believe and persevere in doing good works. God will make sure (without violating the integrity of the person’s intellect and will) that this happens.

Edwin
Thanks for your reply. I believe there was a poster here, can’t remember his name, who said that Calvinism teaches that there are elect (the saints) and there are some predestined for hell. It had to do with earthern vessels.
 
Thanks for your reply. I believe there was a poster here, can’t remember his name, who said that Calvinism teaches that there are elect (the saints) and there are some predestined for hell. It had to do with earthern vessels.
Yes, that is the Calvinist view. They take their Augustine straight–even a little straighter than Augustine did. Aquinas nuanced Augustine considerably, and most Catholics don’t seem to agree even with Aquinas on predestination.

Edwin
 
For those Protestants that believe BOTH in the OSAS AND that Catholics are going to Hell, Where am I?

I am a former Protestant for many years, was definately a “Saved” Protestant, was on the board and a Deacon, the whole nine yards.

I converted and became Catholic, in doing so, obviously I did not deny the Divinity of Jesus, or my original Profession of faith, my new Catholic faith is the fufillment of my faith, not a new faith.

Where does that put me according to them?

Thank you for letting me barge in, and God Bless!
IMHO you were never “saved” (1 John 2:19) Or you are in error but will eventually persevere. In reality no one can accurately answer the question but the Lord .
 
I hate to barge in so please forgive me, but this subject is VERY odd to me!

I asked this question on a non-Catholic Site and got no responce, maybe I stumped them!

Here is my question for them:

For those Protestants that believe BOTH in the OSAS AND that Catholics are going to Hell, Where am I?

I am a former Protestant for many years, was definately a “Saved” Protestant, was on the board and a Deacon, the whole nine yards.

I converted and became Catholic, in doing so, obviously I did not deny the Divinity of Jesus, or my original Profession of faith, my new Catholic faith is the fufillment of my faith, not a new faith.

Where does that put me according to them?

Thank you for letting me barge in, and God Bless!
As a convert, I’m with you on that. I first converted in a “Bible” church, later was baptized and confirmed as a Presbyterian, and I am now a confirmed Catholic. So, I always have a fun answer for someone who says “are you saved” or “have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?” 🙂

Besides the “Catholic” answer (Yes, I’ve been baptized, confirmed and I receive Jesus Christ at every Mass and am on the road to salvation), I answer similarly to you - that I was saved but have come to the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church.
 
Okay, but do OSAS advocates hold this view? MFM seems to indicate if you sin you’re not “really” saved in various responses above.
I’d say that is a pretty sloppy analysis of the theology I’ve presented on this thread.

Though I would say if you don’t live a life of obedience and submission to our Lord Jesus Christ it should give you pause as to whether you are in fact born again and are experiencing the life long sanctification and regeneration brought on by the HS indwelling.
 
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