Why do Protestants separate Jesus Christ and His Church?

[holy_wood]

When I became a member of the Russian Orthodox Church in America, the first thing they said to me was, “welcome home, your’e now in the “true” Church, the ancient church of the first Christians, and the church fathers.”

Their view is that Rome excommunicated them illegally among other things, like changing the Creed (filoque) without the consent of the Eastern Church. They also teach the Pope is first among equals and that Rome took inordinate power in allowing more than that as the western church’s bishop.

Bottom line, Rome thinks they have the whole faith, Constantinople thinks they do. The Protestant break started because of the corruption in the Roman church, Rome will always bare responsibility for that so no one is free of sin here. Protestants did not separate themselves without Rome participating in the whole sinful process that now gives us 33,000 denominations!

Cone on now what you are talking about is a matter of view of history.

In either case Pope John Paul II asked God to forgive the sins of the Church throughout history.

and

In 2004, Pope John Paul II extended a formal apology for the sacking of Constantinople in 1204; the apology was formally accepted by Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople.

Do you believe God has forgiven us? Will you do the same?

The schism arose out of PRIDE as well as cultural differences.

Both parties hold partial blame.

Whatever the case the sins of our fathers should not prevent reconciliation between the East and the West.

Rome as well as the 23 Eastern rites in communion with her welcomes the Orthodox Church.

As for Rome being responsible for the Reformation I respectfully disagree.

Indeed, corruption was prevalent in the Church but it was not universal. The Reformers could have tried to END IT from within.

Instead they decided to seperate and CREATE new doctrines foriehn to the faith.

Their seperation would not be as bad if it were not for this little fact.

The East and West will one day unite it msy take another 500 years but it will come about.

Reconciliation with Protestantism will never come.

 

[ontologysue]

Cone on now what you are talking about is a matter of view of history.

In either case Pope John Paul II asked God to forgive the sins of the Church throughout history.

and

In 2004, Pope John Paul II extended a formal apology for the sacking of Constantinople in 1204; the apology was formally accepted by Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople.

Do you believe God has forgiven us? Will you do the same?

The schism arose out of PRIDE as well as cultural differences.

Both parties hold partial blame.

Whatever the case the sins of our fathers should not prevent reconciliation between the East and the West.

Rome as well as the 23 Eastern rites in communion with her welcomes the Orthodox Church.

As for Rome being responsible for the Reformation I respectfully disagree.

Indeed, corruption was prevalent in the Church but it was not universal. The Reformers could have tried to END IT from within.

Instead they decided to seperate and CREATE new doctrines foriehn to the faith.

Their seperation would not be as bad if it were not for this little fact.

The East and West will one day unite it msy take another 500 years but it will come about.

Reconciliation with Protestantism will never come.

Oh, I agree with most of what you’re saying. It bugs me just as much when Orthodox act as though they’re the only ones that will be saved, and many of them subscribe to that opinion.

I also agree that the Protestant Churches have “thrown the baby out with the bath water,” denying themselves in the process, of the sacraments and generally a much more profound mystical understanding.

However, inspite of the Protestant failings, I think it is much safer spiritually for Catholics to follow Our Lord’s admonition to take the plank out of our own eye before judging the speck in our brothers. Afterall, I have to say, that Protestant evangelicals have many times shown great courage in regard to abortion issues, standing up to secular influences in our culture, etc. while most catholic Bishops dismally poor role models when it comes to striking out against the evils that inundate our culture as well as the other huge scandal where many of them were never held accountable for their wretched actions. There is enough sin to go around…we better behave in humility toward our Christian brothers…that’s my main concern here.

 

[holy_wood]

Oh, I agree with most of what you’re saying. It bugs me just as much when Orthodox act as though they’re the only ones that will be saved, and many of them subscribe to that opinion.

I also agree that the Protestant Churches have “thrown the baby out with the bath water,” denying themselves in the process, of the sacraments and generally a much more profound mystical understanding.

However, inspite of the Protestant failings, I think it is much safer spiritually for Catholics to follow Our Lord’s admonition to take the plank out of our own eye before judging the speck in our brothers. Afterall, I have to say, that Protestant evangelicals have many times shown great courage in regard to abortion issues, standing up to secular influences in our culture, etc. while most catholic Bishops dismally poor role models when it comes to striking out against the evils that inundate our culture as well as the other huge scandal where many of them were never held accountable for their wretched actions. There is enough sin to go around…we better behave in humility toward our Christian brothers…that’s my main concern here.

I have no problem with what you say, however when one attackts the Chuurch they have to be made aware of the danger they put their souls in when they do this.

 

[Jennifer_G]

The other one that is my favorite that I often hear is

“Why go to church when you can go strait to Jesus!!!”

makes me go :ehh:

In Christ

That one is my dad’s favorite (he’s a former Catholic) - although that isn’t his main reason. And yet, he spends all Sunday in his recliner watching golf.

 

[SearchForGod]

I think it’s quite bold and offensive to simply blame Protestants for the division of the catholic church/universal church.

Realistically, if it hadn’t been Martin Luther who began the Reform it would have been someone else maybe a hundred or two hundred years later. Reform was on the brim of the cup of each doubting heart.

I’m quite offended when Catholics say that they are so bloody perfect by the way they talk. They talk about how “we” corrupted the church and tore it apart, how “we” are sinners searching in the dark for a candle, and how “we” have destroyed everything Jesus died to put together. How dare you? How dare YOU?

I submit that Luther might have made a jump logically from “the Church has made a grave mistake” to “the Pope is not the Authority of the Church.” But you must remember that it had to have been a serious blow to his faith to see all the depravity the Church was going through. Not only that, but one could easily be convinced that the corporeal body is evil when sin seems to overtake you without any effort. Luther truly must have been mortified to sin again and again making confessions to a priest and wondering how the priest could still insist that his body was created good in the eyes of the LORD?

Frankly, as a Protestant considering conversion to Catholicism, I see the faith of Catholics a religious bondage and not a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That relationship is essential to a lot of Protestants, and without it there is no point to being Christian. Without it Salvation is merely “fire-insurance.” There are some Catholics, such as my humanities teachers, who are convincing that Catholicism is not just a dead religious order, but outside of those two people I do not see much of the Spirit of God and the Life, Love, and Laughter of Christ reflected in the Catholic Church…

Therefore, I press you to ask yourself and others who are your Catholic brethren, what has the Church done to turn away its members that they would start their own “church”?

If the Holy Catholic Church is the “true church” then I don’t want to miss it. Right now, I’m very far from convinced.

 

[Cat]

I was an active member of evangelical Protestant churches for my first 47 years. (Conference Baptist, Christian church, Christian and Missionary Alliance, and Evangelical Free Church in America.) I also spent two years in the Reformed Church in America, and my daughter is a graduate of Calvin College (Christian Reformed).

When I was growing up, I was taught that the “Church” of Jesus consists of all those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. This would include all Catholics and Orthodox, as well as all Protestants.

It was not so much an “invisible” church, but a “spiritual church” that was headed up by Jesus, not by a visible organization of man on this earth.

I think it is accurate to say that most Protestant denominations taught this viewpoint of the Church.

But in the last couple of decades, Protestant Christians have become more disillusioned with any kind of real “church” on this earth.

**I believe that the reason many Protestants separate Jesus and His Church is that they have been terribly hurt by a “church,” and they cannot reconcile this hurt with the loving kindness of Our Lord Jesus Christ. **

**And furthermore, I believe that this is all part of a diabolical strategy by Satan to separate Christians from their Church so that the devil and his demons can pick off helpless lone believers and destroy them. **

We all know about the sexual sins in the Catholic Church. Like it or not, this has put off many Protestants from ever considering Catholicism.

But sexual sin happens in Protestant churches too.

In my childhood church, one of the men was raping teenagers in the church; it only came out years later when one of the young women came forward.

My husband grew up in the Assemblies of God church, and while we were dating, we discovered that the Youth Minister was whooping it up with his teenaged friends in the Youth Group. We “reported” him, and he was fired.

We are just two people, yet we encountered gross sex sin in our churches. There are other examples in our experience that I didn’t write out for you.

I think this this kind of thing has happened to many Protestants. But in Protestant churches, those who commit sex sin are fired and never heard from again. There is no media exploitation of their sins.

There are numerous other “sins” and “failings” of local church people which cause so much hurt that the Christian decides to have nothing more to do with a local church and its people. This is understandable; after all, the Bible says to avoid keeping company with unrepentant sinners. Is it any wonder that hurt Christians conclude that Jesus Christ is not associated with the “church” of their personal experience?

My husband and I were actually kicked out of our EFree church. I won’t go into detail about what we suffered at their hands and as a result of their treatment, but it was cruel. My daughters refused to attend ANY church for several years; thankfully my older daughter is in RCIA this year and plans to convert to Catholicism this spring. My younger daughter still doesn’t attend any church.

There are other hurts that are perpetrated upon people in their local churches. Often old people are told that they are “out of date” and “no longer useful.” Often this happens in regards to music issues; the old people want more traditional music, while the “young people” (or those who think they are young) want rock and other forms of music. The old people almost always end up leaving.

Also, churches often hurt parents in issues about child-rearing. Parents are told that they can’t serve on various church committees because their CHILDREN are less-than-perfect. Sometimes this is over silly things, like a boy is wearing an earring, or a girl is seen with a boy of another race.

Many Protestant evangelical and fundamental churches have long lists of “rules,” which are not written out, but everyone knows they exist. When members violate the “rules,” they are shunned.

Rules include requirements for homeschooling, taboos against smoking, drinking, Halloween and other holidays, various forms of entertainment, club memberships, dress/makeup, etc.

Shunning is cruel and hurts people terribly. Imagine being told that you are not welcome, or worse, just ignored.

No wonder hurt Protestants come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is NOT associated with a “church.” They have been hurt, and Jesus doesn’t “hurt” His sheep.

 

[stmaria]

I’m not sure you’re thinking through what you’re saying. Was the Holy Spirit instructing the Catholic Church when the Bishops condemned Joan of Arc? Was the Holy Spirit instructing the Church during the Spanish Inquisition? The Church is made up of people. Are you saying the Holy Spirit is not working in the souls of Protestants making them holy? Are you saying the Holy Spirit was working in the Church when the Pope and Bishops were accepting bribes for indulgences before Luther broke with Rome?

As I have pointed out Christ said he would send the Holy Spirit to instruct his Church. He instructs the Church when the Pope, who is the vicar of Christ speaks* ex cathedra *which means “from the Chair of Peter”. This infallibility only applies to matters of faith and morals. Not everthing a Pope or priest does is guided by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it is merely an opinion. It is Churchmen not the Church that makes errors
You need to read accurate history regarding some of your claims.
Real History Of The Crusades catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=4461
“ So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already by said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression — an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”
Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=5236
“ This image of the Spanish Inquisition is a useful one for those who have little love for the Catholic Church. Anyone wishing to beat the Church about the head and shoulders will not tarry long before grabbing two favorite clubs: the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.”

No, it would be ideal if all the institutional churches were one, but given the sin of man, on all side of the equation, I doubt that will ever happen. However, there is NO division in Christ’s mystical Body…membership there involves honestly loving the Beloved, the Spouse of the soul, and keeping His commandments

 

[Cat]

An addition to my post above:

If you can find it (you’ll have to look online), an excellent book is Exit Interviews–Revealing Stories of Why People Are Leaving the Church, by William D. Hendricks, Moody Press, Chicago, 1993.

Only one printing of this book was ever done. No wonder–it is the most depressing book you will ever read

I don’t think people like Rick Warren and Joel Osteen would allow such a book in their “positive presence!” It’s extremely convicting, and I think pastors and other church workers especially will come face to face with their worse nightmares when reading this book.

I could only read a chapter at a time, and I cried after almost every chapter. It is horrific how cruelly some people have been treated by “the church of Jesus Christ.” All denominations, including Catholic, are in this book.

Again, when you read this book, you will see why many Christians have separated Christ from His supposed “church.” Churches should not be cruel and treat people evilly.

 

[Stevenson]

I don’t know of any Protestants who do not love the church and understand the church to be the proper context for the worship of God and their own discipleship.

Thhe argument is, really, that Protestants don’t have the same view of the church that Catholics do.

Protestants certainly confess that the church is the Body of Christ and His enduring witness to a lost and fallen world untilHe comes again.

They just don’t believe it to be exactly coterminous with our church.

And, really, neither should we.

As for the Pope’s recent remarks about the Protestant churches not really being churches?

Well, I think he needs to be taken in the larger context of not only his remarks but the Second Vatican Council as well.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, the most obvious answer here is that Jesus Christ and the church of Jesus Christ are separate entities.

Really. Scripture doesn’t seem to agree with you. When Paul was Saul he persecuted the Church, and when Jesus came to him in the road to Damascus, Jesus said unto him. “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

Or in the Book of Revelation, where the Church is describe as the Bride of the Lamb, and Lamb we know that Jesus is the Lamb.

I don’t think they are separated entities. They are united much like a husband and wife are one. I don’t know where you get this really bad theology when it comes to the relationship with Jesus Christ and His Church.

 

[DixiesFinest]

I think my two favorites are:

• “i dont have a religion i have a relationship”
• “Religion is an intstitution created by the MAN to keep us down. I follow the God Man Jesus Christ.”

So, while not the direct “quote” the OP gave, it is very much in the spirit of what you are asking.
I wonder the same thing.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard that first one…

 

[ontologysue]

All of my neighbors are Protestants. Half of them are divorced and remarried. They are living in adultry. This is a grave sin. But they believe “once saved, always saved” which is a common Protestant error. Contraception is a grace sin, but not to Protestants. Do faithful Protestants live a moral life? Some do. Most don’t because they believe they are born again and will always be forgiven. This is why Christ sends the Holy Spirit to instruct the Catholic Church, the pillar of truth.

 

[Stevenson]

Great post, Sue

 

[vocatio]

In my Baptist days … This means a member of the Methodists church – which “was a founding member of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice in 1973” (LINK). and “supports the right of all persons to have access to a wide range of reproductive health services including sexuality education, family planning services, contraception, abortion services, affordable and quality health and child care” – could still claim to be a Christian and be part of the Body of Christ.

I** can’t speak for the other Protestant churches **i.e. Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian/Anglican, Church of Christ, etc., but my guess is they would have slightly different flavors of teaching when it come to ecclesiology.

The Baptist teaching …

First things first. You are all going to hell…

 

[vocatio]

cont’d
But when I ran accross the church of Christ family I married into…now…that’s a family that knows scripture. They study other beleifs to proselytize others by trying to “teach them the truth”. Well meaning,like other Protestants, but way off base coming from a divided or separated truth or heritage. However, they understand that you can fall away, that faith without works is dead, that baptism does truly save (trinitarian formula is required and not an option), divorce is sinful (one man…one woman for life), concept of leadership (elders and deacons), Lord’s Supper required weekly, Required Sunday Worship, holy trinity,… However, it took experiencing their actual practices that led me to realize the falacy of their shortened believes. I can tell you several horror stories dealing with preacers [under the authority of the elders], deacons and the elders. But not gonna here. I miss the numerous Christians that can recite scripture from rote, however, not the knuckleheaded interpretations that got me into a lot of arguments with youth ministers who said that Paul was the first bible chair director.

Attending RCIA makes me want to jump through the roof these days. I’m a sponsor and sit through the class from a graduate from Franciscan University. I love him very much, but his theology degree is just not enough. He couldn’t find a passage if someone put a gun to his head. I wish he’d turn to some of us…most of his team are converts. We’ve learned how to find scripture fast. Most of us know where to look for it if not BCV it. However, there is one Catholic rooted in the word…he is excellent at reciting and BCVing. I’m impressed. Makes me want to continue that study. However, I want to catch up with all that Catholic stuff I missed growing up.

The so called “Protestants” [an overly simplified term used to cover Christians that are not one holy catholic and apostolic] have a variety of beliefs that do not mesh together. It’s amazing that they all think they’re the one. The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one Church as did my previous faith in the Church of Christ. The COC says that there are 5 steps to salvation [hear, believe, repent, confess, baptize all inferring that you live a new life in the Lord] this and only this places you among the “truly saved”. Overly twisted…true…but the concept is the same in essence with some acception… There is only one Church and that Church is the Church of Christ [scriptural]. God adds to the church too. Being added means you are baptized into Christ by being burried in water.

****Okay gotta stop…preaching again [something I was shooting for as a former Fundamental Evangelical that believed all of you were condemened because you refused to believe the truth…well not totally convinced ].

My DS teases me that he tells his friends that his dad is a writer… in other words I’m full of wind on the board. This wold make for another good thread though.

One last thing, Protestants are our “separated brothers and sisters”. They do NOT hold the fullness of the truth. They assume so much that was actually handed down to them by Tradition and Councils by the Church. We are one body, their just that dry layer of skin or legion we need to heal to restore them to health. Praying for divine mercy I wish all of them to follow the saved to heaven to be restored like the rest of us. For all have fallen short of the glory of God. rant for the hour.

Oh yea…confession rooted in the Jesus breathes on his deciples and says receive the holy spirit…whose sins you forgive they are fogiven, whose sins you retain they are retained. [paraphrased] not sure where you were going with this before. It helped me understand where confession came from…a passage usually skipped…probably on purpose.

Finally, the Holy Spirit is with us all. Had the graces not been in our life, we would not have made it across the Tiber…my wife can’t swim yet.

 

[ontologysue]

Great post, Sue

thanks.

 

[mozart-250]

The Catholic Church sees the bride (The Church) as inseparable from the spouse (Jesus Christ). This analogy should make sense to the Catholic where matrimony is a bond that does not break, nor can it be. Once it is bonded, it remains forever. It is a Sacramental reality between a man and a woman. It is also a reality when it comes to Jesus Christ and the Church.

Just to clarify my previous post…

I believe this also.

I meant the the term “separate entities” in a narrow way…Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are not synonyms.

Sorry for the confusion.

I still disagree that the Church of Jesus Christ is equivalent to a denomination within the Church of Jesus Christ.

BTW in reading the posts of “ontologysue” it is great to have a voice of sanity around here. Also excellent posts by Cat on the subject of spiritual abuse (we were in a borderline abusive situation once and I can relate to the comments on unwritten rules).

 

[holy_wood]

stmaria;3126113:

You are very steeped in dogma, but your response shows little independent thinking.

It is the sin of pride to assume that I know better than the Church

Life is not so simple, not so easy on our spiritual sensibilities. It requires more intellectual energy. We can’t just sit back and say, 'whatever the church says, that’s fine with me, no further reflection necessary."

Indeed we must reflect on it but we must, we must submit to whatever the Church says.

Rome has spoken the case is closed, that used to inspire faith and loyalty.

1 Tim 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church

of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Our Lord was very compassionate toward the prostitute, living in adultery, but the Pharisees were an anathema to Him.

If you read a little further you will see that he commanded her to go forth and sin no onger. She could not keep prostituting herself. God will save those who keep his commandments, obey the Church.

However, the concensus of Church Doctrine, to which you so blithely refer, and, more importantly, Our Lord Himself, who is, by the way, sovereign over His Church, is not so judgemental over an individual’s soul, nor his ultimate salvation, as you appear to be.

Do you not think that if someone in the first century Church decided to make their own little denomination seperate from the Apostles that maybe Paul or Peter might have a few heated words toward them.

One who knows that the Catholic Church was theChurch Christ founded and still rejects her can inherit nothing other than damnation. To reject the Church is to reject Christ for they are One.

Put yourself in the time of Joan of Arc. The Church conspired with secular authorities, just like what happened to Our Lord, to murder her.

The Church conspired?

Several court functionaries testified that significant portions of the transcript were altered in Joans disfavor. Many clerics served under compulsion, including the inquisitor, Jean LeMaitre, and a few even received death threats from the English. Bishop Cauchon denied Joan’s appeals to the Council of Basel and the pope, which should have stopped his proceeding.

My point is that the individual soul must be steeped in prayer FIRST, before he is steeped in doctrine, which often leaves no room for mercy. Only when the first priority is on prayer, holiness, and union with Our Lord, can we rightly discern whether the institutional church is acting in union with Him, or through the weak and sinful inclinations of man. Many times I have perceived through prayer that the church was wrong, not in it’s Creed, but in its actions, for example, the recent scandal over some priests.

Ok but this scandal, does it warrant one seperating from the Devinly authored Church or does it demand that those faithful to Christ’s Church root out and bring to justice the “ravenous wolves” among the faithful?

Our Lord requires that I stand up for Him, not for the weak and often sinful men, who are running the institutional church at any given moment in time.

You keep setting up a false dichotomy, to stand up for the Church is to stand up for Christ. The Apostles were sinners until the day they died. It is quite probable that many fell into mortal sin but it does not mean you do not listen to them.

The Pharisees were sinners but what did our Lord say?

“Listen to them because they sit upon the seat of Moses”.

The soul doesn’t often have time to wait 5 centuries to see if the church back tracks on its current position; no, that’s why I have prayer, and Our Lord’s own voice to guide me.

What has it backtracked on? The Church waited 3 centuries before we had a Bible. You are reiterating an argument of our Protestant brothers. I do not follow the Church because the Holy Spirit told me that it is wrong and I am right. LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE NOW.

Sometimes I think churchmen rely solely on the church, not distinguising between the institutional and the mystical, ignoring Our Lord’s own voice in their heart. We sinful humans are extremely vulnerable to “group think” and mob mentality…we must be very alert to that possibility at all times, depending on prayer to guide us.

And it could be just as possible that the debvil is influencing you and in order to better discern the truth one needs the vible Body for guidance.

 

[ontologysue]

ontologysue;3126799:

It is the sin of pride to assume that I know better than the Church

Indeed we must reflect on it but we must, we must submit to whatever the Church says.

Rome has spoken the case is closed, that used to inspire faith and loyalty.

1 Tim 3:15
Ok but this scandal, does it warrant one seperating from the Devinly authored Church or does it demand that those faithful to Christ’s Church root out and bring to justice the “ravenous wolves” among the faithful?

You keep setting up a false dichotomy, to stand up for the Church is to stand up for Christ. The Apostles were sinners until the day they died. It is quite probable that many fell into mortal sin but it does not mean you do not listen to them.

The Pharisees were sinners but what did our Lord say?

“Listen to them because they sit upon the seat of Moses”.

What has it backtracked on? The Church waited 3 centuries before we had a Bible. You are reiterating an argument of our Protestant brothers. I do not follow the Church because the Holy Spirit told me that it is wrong and I am right. LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE NOW.

And it could be just as possible that the debvil is influencing you and in order to better discern the truth one needs the vible Body for guidance.

Holy_wood, I wish you well; I think our debate has ended.

 

[stmaria]

I will quote Our Lord; “not all who say, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom.”

And I will quote from Our Lord; "“And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able”

“I tell you solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood, you will not have life in you .Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day."

I am well aware of the difference between “ex cathedra” and other statements by the Pope, I am also familiar with the sources you mention. . Life is not so simple, not so easy on our spiritual sensibilities. It requires more intellectual energy. We can’t just sit back and say, 'whatever the church says, that’s fine with me, no further reflection necessary."

No further reflection is necessary! The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. When Jesus said, “Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life” many of his disciples walked away. They could not accept this statement. Jesus did NOT call them back. [Moderator Removed uncharitable comments]. I would have accepted these words of Jesus without questioning.

You are quite judgemental toward your Protestant neighbors. Our Lord was very compassionate toward the prostitute, living in adultery, but the Pharisees were an anathema to Him.

Jesus told them to sin no more. He was quite judgemental. My neighbors ARE living in adultery. Watered down morality will not get you into heaven

However, the concensus of Church Doctrine, to which you so blithely refer, and, more importantly, Our Lord Himself, who is, by the way, sovereign over His Church, is not so judgemental over an individual’s soul, nor his ultimate salvation, as you appear to be

.
Jesus said salvation is entered through a narrow gate and many are called but few are chosen. You have a liberal view of salvation. I do not.

Put yourself in the time of Joan of Arc. The Church conspired with secular authorities, just like what happened to Our Lord, to murder her

.

This is anti-Catholic nonsense. The Church did not conspire. A politically motivated trial by the Duke of Bedford convicted her of heresy not the Church.Please post your so-called source.

My point is that the individual soul must be steeped in prayer FIRST, before he is steeped in doctrine, which often leaves no room for mercy. Only when the first priority is on prayer, holiness, and union with Our Lord, can we rightly discern whether the institutional church is acting in union with Him

,

So you are your own Pope? You have the Holy Spirit guiding you? Please tell me which Church doctrine leaves no room for mercy?

Many times I have perceived through prayer that the church was wrong, not in it’s Creed, but in its actions, for example, the recent scandal over some priests.

You are confusing the actions of individual priests with the Church. Churchmen sin not the Church.

If I fail to listen to His voice, and just fell back on “the church,” I could lose Him. The soul doesn’t often have time to wait 5 centuries to see if the church back tracks on its current position

;

When has the Church back tracked?

that’s why I have prayer, and Our Lord’s own voice to guide me.

Guide you to believe that contraception is morally right with God? Guide you to believe that multiple marriages are morally right with God?

I often think of it this way, it’s as though you live with your Spouse, everyday you learn to know Him better; then, assume He runs an organization with rules and standards etc. Suppose someone in that organization comes to you one day and suggests something that gives you pause. You immediately would go to your Spouse, He would let you know whether that suggestion was in line with His principles or not.

Sometimes I think churchmen rely solely on the church, not distinguising between the institutional and the mystical, ignoring Our Lord’s own voice in their heart. We sinful humans are extremely vulnerable to “group think” and mob mentality…we must be very alert to that possibility at all times, depending on prayer to guide us.

But this is why there are thousands of different denominations all with different beliefs. They ALL believe that God is talking to them. He is not. He promised to send the Holy Spirit to instruct His Church not individuals. He gave Peter, the first Pope, the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Only the Catholic Church, through Apostolic Succession, has those keys.
Meaning of “keys” members.aol.com/joyinliving7/keys2.html