Why Do Protestants Shun Mary?

[Koineman]

…and why pray tell, should they?

Look at it. It’s excessive honor.

They are expressing their devotion to the Virgin Mary

There is a lot more than just devotion going on there. That’s worship. That’s crossing the line into idolatry. That is treating the virgin Mary like a goddess.

All for HIS Honor and Glory!

The picture looks like it’s all to HER glory and honor.

 

[fred_conty]

shun
SHən/Submit
verb
persistently avoid, ignore, or reject (someone or something) through antipathy or caution. “he shunned fashionable society”
synonyms: avoid, evade, eschew, steer clear of, shy away from, fight shy of, keep one’s distance from, give a wide berth to, have nothing to do with; More

Perhaps you read more into ‘shunning’ than is necessary.

…and while it does not apply to all protestants, it is clear that there is a generally protestant aversion to all things Mary, perhaps out of their natural disdain for all things Catholic (or perhaps out of fear of being perceived as sympathetic to Catholicism–much like ‘homophobia’ manifests as a fear of being perceived as homosexual, by virtue of being sympathetic to homosexuals, rather than actual fear of homosexuality, or homosexuals).

Protestants tend to be dualists–so they tend to see Marian devotion as antagonistic to devotion to Christ–as a binary opposite, rather than complementary. And so, many ‘shun’–or avoid, or ignore, or significantly downplay–the Blessed Virgin Mary’s role in the Salvation Narrative–even to the point of impugning her perpetual virginity, immaculate conception, assumption, sinlessness, and other such virtues, that were all but taken for granted by the early church.

But yes, ‘shun’ works just fine in the OP/thread title.

I suppose some do “shun” her as Quakers “shun” sometimes.

But I think they see Mary as they would see any other woman in the Bible, none of which is “shunned” by them. They see her as part of the picture at Christmas. So they can’t very well “shun” her if she is in the Bible.

I think what you think is that because they do not give her the place that Catholics give her, then she is being “shunned”. But to them, they are not “shunning”, but just giving her the place they think she should have…private interpretation.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[Goya]

Look at it. It’s excessive honor.

There is a lot more than just devotion going on there. That’s worship. That’s crossing the line into idolatry. That is treating the virgin Mary like a goddess.

The picture looks like it’s all to HER glory and honor.

Complete and utter non-sense.

Venerating the Blessed Virgin IS glorifying God. It is done ONLY towards that end.

So apparently you reject the list I posted, as being beneath you; as being less in dignity than your revered, venerated, and worshipped (by your standards) reformers.

Whatever…

Here’s your original hero, in his own words, AFTER having founded his own church:

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.

Martin Luther (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

Perhaps you can tell us exactly how that picture in any way, injures Christ or the Scriptures?

 

[Goya]

I suppose some do “shun” her as Quakers “shun” sometimes.

But I think they see Mary as they would see any other woman in the Bible, none of which is “shunned” by them. They see her as part of the picture at Christmas. So they can’t very well “shun” her if she is in the Bible.

I think what you think is that because they do not give her the place that Catholics give her, then she is being “shunned”. But to them, they are not “shunning”, but just giving her the place they think she should have…private interpretation.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

Many (not ‘they’) equate veneration and honoring, with ‘worshipping’, and ‘idolatry’. You need look no further than 2 posts up, for an example.

And many, in reaction thereto, therefore ‘shun’ Mary, lest they should be guilty of–or worse still, perceived by their protestant peers–as ‘worshipping’ Mary, or engaging in ‘idolatry’.

My good man…I am married to one; trust me, I speak from experience.

 

[Koineman]

I understand. I also see this as a private devotion, that leaves the participants responsible for the interior seperation between high veneration of His mother with intentions to give glory to God and a very possible idolatry.

Yes. It’s hard to look at a picture like that and walk away thinking, “That’s just veneration or honor.”

Its a complicated subject for me. I lean towards your sentiments, yet respect that we can have a pure devotion to Mary and allow images/icons/statues to bring our minds and senses closer to Attention on Him.

I really think icons are okay. In fact, I have three in my room: One of Mary and the baby Jesus, another of Jesus as an adult (what I guess the Orthodox would call a Pantokrator icon), and a small one of St. John Chrysostom. They are reminders to me. But I won’t do acts of worship toward them. The picture I posted earlier is clearly crossing from honor into worship.

 

[crai7]

Catholicism has always held a special place of veneration (not worship) for the importance of Mary in Christian theology.

When, why, and who were the first Protestants to begin the shunning of Mary in their theology?

“Shun” - **NO, that is just plain exaggeration. **But we certainly don’t go for the opposite extreme of calling her the Queen of Heaven, that is another error that borders on idolatory.

Jesus nipped the earliest signs of a looming Mary cult in the bud… see Luke 11:27-28

“While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

 

[crai7]

You probably don’t mind that Washington, Lincoln, and Martin Luther King Jr. get holidays set aside for them, although they were human just like everyone else. Do Protestants do as much for Mary, who in the history of the human race certainly holds a more regal place in our hearts. The Catholic Church has several days of each year dedicated to the most important person who ever said “Thy will be done.”

That Mary’s spirit is not very much alive is certainly not true if you believe in heaven.

That she held (and there is every reason to believe she still holds) a special power is evident by her persuading Jesus, against his will, to change water into wine at the wedding feast at Cana. If she can intercede for the good of the wedding guests, why should she not be able to intercede for our good today? Is she not still the mother of Jesus? And is she not still our mother, as she was given by Jesus to be the mother of John at the foot of the cross.

I find it truly odd that the Catholic church gives Mary so much devotion, but ignores a lot of equally or even more deserving characters in the bible, such as Elijah. There is no St Elijah for some strange reason.

 

[crai7]

Many (not ‘they’) equate veneration and honoring, with ‘worshipping’, and ‘idolatry’. You need look no further than 2 posts up, for an example.

And many, in reaction thereto, therefore ‘shun’ Mary, lest they should be guilty of–or worse still, perceived by their protestant peers–as ‘worshipping’ Mary, or engaging in ‘idolatry’.

My good man…I am married to one; trust me, I speak from experience.

Veneration and honouring to the degree some Catholics push it, goes straight over the boundary lines into worship. It seems to depend on the individual though, not all Catholics are in agreement it would seem.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

“Shun” - **NO, that is just plain exaggeration. **But we certainly don’t go for the opposite extreme of calling her the Queen of Heaven, that is another error that borders on idolatory.

Jesus nipped the earliest signs of a looming Mary cult in the bud… see Luke 11:27-28

“While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

You are quoting from a bad translation. In a better translation, Jesus says “rather, blessed are those etc…”

The difference is substantial. Jesus is correcting the woman because she sees the human relationship as being all important, but Jesus is saying it is RATHER more important to hear the word of God and observe it. Jesus is PRAISING the virtue of his mother as being HER SOURCE of blessedness, not her human motherhood alone. After all, we hear of His other near relations in another story thinking Jesus is quite mad or crazy.

 

[pablope]

Look at it. It’s excessive honor.

And are you the authority to judge what is excessive and what is not? By what standard would you determine what is excessive and what is not?

There is a lot more than just devotion going on there. That’s worship.

And again…are you the authority to judge what is worship and what is not? What is your standard as to what is worship and what it not?

That’s crossing the line into idolatry. That is treating the virgin Mary like a goddess.

How do you know? Did you ask the ones in the picture if they were treating the BVM as a goddess?

Or it is just your perception and your judgement?

The picture looks like it’s all to HER glory and honor.

To a catholic, it is not. To someone not used to it…and to one whose view is colored by anti Catholicism of the protestant reformation…it would…

 

[pablope]

Veneration and honouring to the degree some Catholics push it, goes straight over the boundary lines into worship. It seems to depend on the individual though, not all Catholics are in agreement it would seem.

To a catholic who is not confused…, it is not. To someone not used to it…and to one whose view is colored by anti Catholicism of the protestant reformation…it would…

 

[crai7]

Because Mary and Joseph clearly understood their responsibility in caring for the Christ child.their privilege was unique,any subsequent children would have detracted from their immense responsibility.

You’ve lost me? They did have other children…

Matthew 12:46-47:

“46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, **his mother and brothers **stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.””

And another indication Catholics’ go on a bit too far about Mary’s uniqueness, since Jesus himself pointed out that any older(?) woman who does God’s will is His mother…

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”"

 

[pablope]

You’ve lost me? They did have other children…

Matthew 12:46-47:

“46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, **his mother and brothers **stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.””

And another indication Catholics’ go on a bit too far about Mary’s uniqueness, since Jesus himself pointed out that any older(?) woman who does God’s will is His mother…

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”"

Can you point out where in the passage you quoted that says “brothers” refers to blood brothers?

 

[Justin61790]

You’ve lost me? They did have other children…

Matthew 12:46-47:

“46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, **his mother and brothers **stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.””

And another indication Catholics’ go on a bit too far about Mary’s uniqueness, since Jesus himself pointed out that any older(?) woman who does God’s will is His mother…

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”"

You should know that the word adelphoi in the original text can mean brother, half brother, step brother even cousin. And there are more than a few scholarl theories on who was the mother of the other adelphoi of Jesus. St. Jerome puts forth the idea of them being the children of Mary’s sister, Mary of Cleopas and he offers proofs for it. If youd like to read his writings on this they arent hard to find. More modern scholars have also written on the subject. Also for over 300 years no christians questioned Mary’s perpetual virginity.

catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

Regardless of what you believe it cant be denied that just because the english translation says brothers doesnt mean its means the same as the modern concept of brothers in english cultures.

 

[crai7]

You are quoting from a bad translation. In a better translation, Jesus says “rather, blessed are those etc…”

The difference is substantial. Jesus is correcting the woman because she sees the human relationship as being all important, but Jesus is saying it is RATHER more important to hear the word of God and observe it. Jesus is PRAISING the virtue of his mother as being HER SOURCE of blessedness, not her human motherhood alone. After all, we hear of His other near relations in another story thinking Jesus is quite mad or crazy.

The NASB has ‘on the contrary’ and the NIV has ‘blessed rather’. Both suggest contradiction.

Yes, I would agree that virtue would be a source of blessedness, but that then opens her motherhood to others. In Mark 3:31-34 Jesus reinforces the idea that Mary was not especially unique, since any (probably older) women could be His mother.

"*31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! **35Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”"/*I]

 

[Koineman]

Another answer to the OP (though the word “shun” is inaccurate) is this:

Many Protestants do not pray to Mary or have excessive devotion to her because we do not see any need to. It is enough to pray to/be devoted to Jesus.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

crai7:

The NASB has ‘on the contrary’ and the NIV has ‘blessed rather’. Both suggest contradiction.

I did check many translations, and very FEW use “on the contrary.” Those, we may be sure are Evangelical biased against the Virgin Mary, as you yourself prefer that translation.

It’s unfortunate that you fail to see the true meaning of Our Lord’s saying in that verse. You fail to see how Jesus must always redirect the attention of the Jews away from their earth-bound understandings toward the heavenly. The Virgin Mary is the first and MOST pleasing disciple of Jesus. The very LAST thing Our Lord would do is disrespect her, however subtly (as the evangelicals -not to be confused with mainline Protestants- seem to think.)

 

[tmcq]

Protestants shun Mary because they are not Christians.DAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Good_Fella]

I can’t speak for all Protestants, but as a Lutheran, we do honor Mary as other saints. We just avoid what we see as worship. And when you consider the worship-like activities centered on Mary, as in the picture below, maybe you can understand why we are hesitant in that particular area:

*At the end of three days the officers went through the camp and commanded the people, “When you see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God being carried by the Levitical priests, then you shall set out from your place and follow it, that you may know the way you shall go, for you have not passed this way before.

And while all Israel were passing over on dry ground, the priests who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord stood on dry ground in the midst of the Jordan, until all the nation finished passing over the Jordan.
Joshua 3, 2-4, 17*

And David was afraid of the Lord that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”
2 Samuel 6, 9

Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
2 Samuel 6, 16

“And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.”
Luke 1, 43-44

The Ark of the Covenant is the most sacred and highly venerated religious relic in Judaism. This is because God commanded that it be fashioned for Him to be present among His chosen people. Also, the ark held the two stone tablets on which the 10 commandments were inscribed, the rod of the High Priest Aaron, and a golden jar of the manna which came down from heaven. When the ark was carried in procession, it was accompanied by joyous singing and the playing of several musical instruments. The procession was an occasion for having been blessed by God and receiving the grace of His covenant. It was also associated with God’s intervention and providential care. In the Battle of Jericho the ark was carried round the city’s walls for seven days until the walls finally came down. When the Israelites venerated the ark because it was associated with the Divine Presence and the dispensation of God’s grace, they were in fact worshipping and praising God.

Since nascent time, the Church has venerated Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. The Mother of our Lord is honoured because of her association with God’s presence among us in the person of Christ. Mary is revered as a type of God’s holy temple or meeting tent. Her womb is a type of sacred sanctuary in which was held the Divine Word, the High Priest in the order of Melchizadeck, and the “true manna come down from heaven – the bread of life –“in the person of her divine Son Jesus. And not unlike the Ark of the Old Covenant, Mary serves as the dispensatrix of divine grace and an appointed medium through which God’s intervention is mediated for the salvation of all people. In the words of Justin Martyr: "Christ became man by the Virgin that the disobedience which issued from the serpent might be destroyed in the same way it originated. Eve was still an undefiled virgin when she conceived the word of the serpent and brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin received faith and joy, at the announcement of the angel Gabriel…and she replied, “Be it done to me according you your word”. So through the mediation of the Virgin he came into the world, through whom God would crush the serpent and all the angels and men like it” [Apologia, 100 (155 A.D.)] .

Catholics who hold and participate in processions with images of the Blessed Virgin Mary are no less worshipping and praising God than the Israelites were. They are mindful of Mary’s collaboration with God in His work of redemption and acknowledge the fact that her obedient act of faith working through love resulted in the Incarnation, without which there could be no cause of salvation for the entire world according to God’s design. Elizabeth praised and honoured Mary for her faith when she exclaimed, “Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled” (Luke 1, 45). She was hailed as “the most blessed among women” on account of her intimate association with the fruit of her womb in the divine order of redemption. Both the Mother and the Son together are blessed by the Father as consecrated to Him in serving His will (1, 42). The evangelist acknowledges the nascent Christian belief in Mary’s mediatory role in God’s plan of salvation as part of a tradition that is an offshoot of the ancient Jewish perception of the woman’s key collaborative role in saving Israel from its enemies.

And Uzzi′ah said to her, “O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the leader of our enemies. Your hope will never depart from the hearts of men, as they remember the power of God. May God grant this to be a perpetual honor to you, and may he visit you with blessings, because you did not spare your own life when our nation was brought low, but have avenged our ruin, walking in the straight path before our God.” And all the people said, “So be it, so be it!”
Judith 13, 18-20

PAX
:harp:

 

[Koineman]

Since nascent time, the Church has venerated Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.

Really? Since nascent times? Can you produce a quote from nascent times that shows that Christians actually venerated Mary? Your quote from Justin Martyr doesn’t show that the early church venerated her. It just talks about what Mary did.

The Mother of our Lord is honoured because of her association with God’s presence among us in the person of Christ. Mary is revered as a type of God’s holy temple or meeting tent.