Why do Roman Catholics not accept Sola Scriptura? Part II

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Oh, no…not again! 😃
I can’t believe we just wasted 995 posts on the first thread when the answer was stated within the first dozen or so posts…

Because Sola Scriptura is a 500 year old novelty, created by a bunch of rebels, that flies in the face of 2000 years of Sacred Tradition AND Sacred Scripture, not to mention that it denies the very teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ!
 
Well, he did also ask the following questions of us:
Now lets look at what the catholic church infallibly teaches on speaking in tongues. What do they say that all catholics must believe?
I don’t think the Church has issued an infallible pronouncement on the issue, at least not any time recently. It hasn’t really come up as a disputed issue for us since the time of St. Paul.

So, with him, the Church would teach that tongues are a gift of the Holy Spirit; that they are to be used for building up the entire Body and not for one person’s aggrandizement; that they are best when interpreted at the same time; etc. I do know that the Church doesn’t teach any “passing away” of the charismatic gifts after the first century, as some other groups do. Nor does she teach that tongues are a required part of every Christian’s experience.

Some Catholics actively seek out and embrace the charismatic gifts as a regular part of their worship; most don’t, but accept that they could be granted if God so chooses. As long as all stay with the teachings the Church has definitively settled and remain united to their bishops and the Pope, they’re all still Catholics.
There are a number of different lists of popes. Which one is the correct one?
If you mean which one is absolutely correct, that is a question of history, and I am not an historian. Nor can a question of history be settled infallibly by the Church.

The closest thing to an “official” list is the one issued every year by the Vatican in the Annuario Pontificio.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the small number of disputed cases has resulted in a dispute over doctrine.
Or take purgatory. How long is a catholic soul there?
That has not been revealed to us by God. If purgatory even exists in time, then it seems that different souls are there for different lengths of time. If “time” is not even a meaningful concept in purgatory, then the question is unanswerable.
Or can one be a catholic and still support abortion?
One can “be a Catholic” in the sense of being baptized in the Faith and never having apostasized from it, yes.

The actual teaching of the Church on the subject is clear, however, and such a Catholic would not be acting in accordance with that teaching. Grave sin would most likely be involved, and excommunication could be incurred if the person were to actively participate in or aid an abortion, or publicly oppose the Church’s teaching on the matter. Even then, though, the person would still technically be a Catholic, just one in dire need of correction.
Finally, what must a person believe and practice to be considered a catholic?
Again, to be considered a Catholic, a person must be baptized (either as a Catholic specifically, or as a Christian in a non-Catholic community and later be received into the Catholic Church) and never have apostasized from the Church.

To be a Catholic in a state of grace, one should not obstinately deny any truth that has been defined as a matter of faith by the Church, nor deliberately refuse to perform any practice to which the Church has bound its members on pain of sin, nor deliberately defy the moral law.

If you want to know exactly what those truths and practices are, and how Catholicism sees the moral law, you will have to look to a more detailed source. The *Catechism of the Catholic Church * is quite handy in that regard.

Usagi
 
I can’t believe we just wasted 995 posts on the first thread when the answer was stated within the first dozen or so posts…

Because Sola Scriptura is a 500 year old novelty, created by a bunch of rebels, that flies in the face of 2000 years of Sacred Tradition AND Sacred Scripture, not to mention that it denies the very teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ!
What teachings of the Lord do you know of that aren’t in the Scriptures?
 
What teachings of the Lord do you know of that aren’t in the Scriptures?
You mean directly from the Lord’s mouth? Or from Tradtion (have you looked up Big T Tradition yet, OS? 😉 )

Yes, we all know you think that if it ain’t in Scripture, it ain’t true. 😉
 
What teachings of the Lord do you know of that aren’t in the Scriptures?
The Trinity. It is “in” scripture in that it can be supported by verses, but no verse in the Bible specifically states that “God is three persons in one.”
 
The Trinity. It is “in” scripture in that it can be supported by verses, but no verse in the Bible specifically states that “God is three persons in one.”
What teaching says there are three persons in one?
 
You mean directly from the Lord’s mouth? Or from Tradtion (have you looked up Big T Tradition yet, OS? 😉 )

Yes, we all know you think that if it ain’t in Scripture, it ain’t true. 😉
**Well if we want to believe the early church fathers, the ones who really started the church, they all tell us that if it can’t be proved with Scripture, then it is false. In the other thread (#1) I listed all the early fathers that commented on Tradition.

So why would anyone believe it if it can’t be found in Scripture???**
 
Well if we want to believe the early church fathers, the ones who really started the church, they all tell us that if it can’t be proved with Scripture, then it is false.
They also said that scripture must be interpreted in the light of Church tradition.

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,20:2 (A.D. 180).
 
They also said that scripture must be interpreted in the light of Church tradition.

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,20:2 (A.D. 180).
**Irenæus was a great man and you know he also appealed to Scripture when confronting heretics. It was his authority to combat heretics with.

In addition, he said that if Tradition could not be supported by Scripture, it was false… Great man.**
 
So can you quote what they had to say about it?
The Nicene Creed will clear that up.
Irenæus was a great man and you know he also appealed to Scripture when confronting heretics. It was his authority to combat heretics with.
Because heretics denied the authority of the Church established by the apostles and mistakenly believed that scripture was their only authority. Of course, scripture denies “scripture alone” many times: 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Peter 1:20, et al.
In addition, he said that if Tradition could not be supported by Scripture, it was false… Great man…
Where? In what context?
Too bad he didn’t live when Rome took over the church!
The assumption that Rome “corrupted” the Church contradicts Jesus on three different occasions: Matthew 16:18, Matthew 28:20 and John 14:16-8.
 
**Well if we want to believe the early church fathers, the ones who really started the church, they all tell us that if it can’t be proved with Scripture, then it is false. In the other thread (#1) I listed all the early fathers that commented on Tradition.

So why would anyone believe it if it can’t be found in Scripture???**
Because Scripture can be convoluted by heretics:
Irenaeus, Texts of Holy Scripture used by these heretics to support their opinions.:
newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm
Also, see Acts: 8:30-36
30
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
32
This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
33
In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.”
34
Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?”
35
Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.
36
As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?”
They also said that scripture must be interpreted in the light of Church tradition.

.
You are correct. Ignatius of Antioch, who preceded Irenaeus, and a student of St. John the Apostle wrote:
‘Follow the bishop, all of you, as Jesus Christ follows his Father, and the presbterium as the Apostles. As for the deacons, respect them as the Law of God. Let no one do anything with reference to the Church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist may be regarded as legitimate which is celebrated with the bishop or his delegate presiding. Where the bishop is, there let the community be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church’
Epis Symyrnaens 8
 
What teachings of the Lord do you know of that aren’t in the Scriptures?
HI, OS. In the deposit of faith of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The ones that are not explicit enough for you.
John 21:
24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

{Peace,OneNow1
 
EphelDuath
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Scholar
So can you quote what they had to say about it?
The Nicene Creed will clear that up.
You must have misread it. There is nothing there about this.
Quote:
Irenæus was a great man and you know he also appealed to Scripture when confronting heretics. It was his authority to combat heretics with.
Because heretics denied the authority of the Church established by the apostles and mistakenly believed that scripture was their only authority. Of course, scripture denies “scripture alone” many times: 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Peter 1:20, et al.
**You have it wrong. The heretics were using other writings, not Scripture. Irenæus used Scripture to straighten them out each time.

And Scripture does not deny itself at all. You must be reading those verses wrong. There is nothing there to support your charge.**
Quote:
In addition, he said that if Tradition could not be supported by Scripture, it was false… Great man…
Where? In what context?
This is what Irenæus wrote:

*]“We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel they truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, **they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith.” ***(Adv. H. 3:1)

He is saying the Scriptures are the foundation and pillar of our faith. That’s Sola Scriptura. And the context is quite clear. And he also said:

*Read more diligently that gospel which is given to us by the apostles; and read more diligently the prophets, and you will find every action and the whole doctrine of our Lord preached in them. (Adv. H. 4:66) *
Quote:
Too bad he didn’t live when Rome took over the church!
The assumption that Rome “corrupted” the Church contradicts Jesus on three different occasions: Matthew 16:18, Matthew 28:20 and John 14:16-8.
**Sorry but Jesus did not contradict that. How could He know what would happen? Because he predicted it.

Rome claimed Christianity as it’s official religion in 337 A.D. and that is when they started introducing paganistic rites and rituals into Christianity. Read your early church history.**
 
HI, OS. In the deposit of faith of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The ones that are not explicit enough for you.
John 21:
24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

{Peace,OneNow1
**And I fully believe that Christ did many things and spoke of many things. But He did not teach anything that is necessary for our faith and morals because Scripture tells us it is sufficient and true for all things.

Catholics keep saying there were other teachings that aren’t in the Scriptures but I keep asking for them but they aren’t produced.

In Christ…**
 
Because Scripture can be convoluted by heretics:
Irenaeus, Texts of Holy Scripture used by these heretics to support their opinions.:
newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm
Also, see Acts: 8:30-36

You are correct. Ignatius of Antioch, who preceded Irenaeus, and a student of St. John the Apostle wrote:
**And I agree that Ignatius was correct. Ignatius did not say we were to believe everything the bishop said. We should follow the bishop but if the bishop is not following Christ and the Scriptures, then we are told to shun him. Now I don’t think a bishop would do that unless he taught false doctrines that can’t be found in Scripture and then he would be guilty.

The problem with the Eunuch was that he was trying to intrepret prophecy and Peter tells us that prophecy can be difficult to interpret. That does not pertain to Scripture but prophecy. However a man of God, who has been studying, etc. should be able to discuss prophecy at least. But I don’t claim everyone can interpret it.

Read the link you gave to the new advent site. It does not pertain to Scripture at all but convuluted Scripture. They are making up stories that were completely false and how did Irenæus know they were false? Because they did not conform to Scripture. How else do you think he was able to refute the heretics? He couldn’t simply say they were wrong. He had to appeal to Scripture, and he did.**

As Christians we are instructed to search for the truth and required to search the Scriptures to find the falsehoods.
 
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