Why do Roman Catholics not accept Sola Scriptura?

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I read this earlier today while doing research. I thought it appropriate. It is from newadvent.org/cathen/06001a.htm.
On the other hand Eutyches, when tried at Constantinople by St. Flavian, in 449, refused to accept either Fathers or councils as authorities, confining himself to Holy Scripture, a position which horrified his judges
Eutyches was accused of saying that Christ had only one nature.

The important part is that by 449, Church Fathers and Councils were considered authoritative. In fact, it was much earlier than that.
 
The deutrocanonical books were not at the same level as the rest of the 66. Even though they were in the Vulgate their status was of a secondary position.
Really? According to who? Jesus did not seem to think so…
This quote from the link does not nullify the protestant position. Paul in Romans 3:2 commends the Jews because they were entrusted with oracles of God i.e, the Scripures.
No, the “oracles” are the expressions of the Divine. These came in oral as well as written form. Your defintion of “oracles” is limting and bigoted.
Secondly are there any direct quotes from the apocrypha itself by Jesus or the apostles?
Yes, many! 👍 Since Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint, which contained the deuteros, that is the source of all their quotes. 👍
From the link:
“The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.”
Why would you choose to adopt a canon of the antagonistic Jews, who Jesus clearly stated were wrong, over and above the canon chosen by the God Given authority to speak in reference to Himself.?? :confused:
 
If I want to know the cannon of the bible no offence but I go to God’s Church not the Jews.

A the time of Christ even today there is no set cannon in Judaism. Some believe it or not actually accpet the Deutrocannon.

Aside from one book the entire Deuterocannon has been found in Hebrew. The more common Jewish cannon rejected the books as they did not have them in Hebrew at the time and and hated the Greek translation after the early Christians used it to much effect in thier converting of thousands of Jews.

They didn’t included Maccabes due the the uprising in the book and wanting to apease the Roman Empire.

They did not except wisdom as it clearly prophecises the passion of Christ.

If you read the Jerusalem Bible you will see how clearly (via the cross-references) the deutrocannon matches the New Testament.

etc etc etc
Of course you have references for all these claims???
 
OS,
Please show me in scripture why human cloning is wrong. Please show me if embyonic stem cell research is wrong.
Please show me if divorce and remarrage is allowed.
 
Oh boy, more Chick Tract history:banghead:
Look, so you think we’re the Whore of Babylon, right?
Did I embarrass you, OS? I am sorry. I only meant to correct you (as per St Paul in his letters) for preaching a Gospel DIFFERENT than the one Church preaches.

Try the Oxford Companion to the Bible. It’s non-Catholic and you can vent your bile at those dang Scholars (the real kind) who contradict pretty much everything you have been asserting here.

Robert
 
Of course you have references for all these claims???
Gee, OS, neither do you for your “woman priests” and “priests conducting homosexual marraiges” hooey!

Oh, and of course, those proof texts on the “Trinity”

and that pesky “Jewish canon 200 years before Chrsit.”

We are all so excited, waiting for YOUR references!

Robert
 
Oh boy, more Chick Tract history:banghead:

Look, so you think we’re the Whore of Babylon, right?

So you think the KJV is THE Bible for Christians, right?

Fine.

Wallow in your hatred and lies. But if you are going to assert something as ignorant of history as a Jewish canon “about 200 years before Christ,” then you are just embarrassing yourself.

Jamnia began about 90 AD. You know, AD as in Anno Domine, Year of our Lord???

Robert
Rather than show you where this information is, I suggest you do a little more research. The Jewish canon was established in 400 BC. Now look that up!
 
So why don’t you tell me something that is necessary but is not included in the Bible?
I will give you 5 examples:
  1. It is necessary to have every bit of the word of God to have salvation. Why is your bible missing 7 books?
  2. Salvation of Old Scholar is necessary for Old Scholar but “Old Scholar” is not to be found anywhere in the Bible. 😃
  3. Sola Scriptura is not to be found in the bible anywhere but it is essential to Protestant belief
  4. Sola Gratia is not to be found in the bible anywhere but it is essential to Protestant belief and also essential that The Catholic Sacraments that are in the bible are are also not required (an impossible predicate for Sola Gratia)
  5. Sola Fide by itself is not to be found in the bible anywhere but it it essential to Protestant belief and also that The Catholic Sacraments which are in the bible are also not required (an impossible predicate for Sola Fide)
Now why don’t you tell us something that it is in the bible but is not in the Catholic Church teaching, tradition or its cannon. 😃

Then tell me anything that is in the Church Teaching that is not in the bible. 😃

James
 
If you are serious you should learn what it is. Based on some of your posts you are simply drawing up a straw man.
Although sola Scriptura may be played at varying levels of sophistication, it IS a straw man. Even the cleverest exponent of the doctrine must eventually rely upon either Tradition or his own interpretation – always claimed to be the personal guidance of the Holy Spirit.

BT. DT. Doesn’t work…
 
They are not called that specifically, but then again where is God called Trinity explicitly in scripture? They are both implicit facts of scripture as seen by the early church writings previous to the canon of scripture in 382ad.

If what they preached and wrote eventually became scripture, then God breathed His life into them in John 20:21-23 and then gave them the ability to not only forgive the sins of others or not to, but also to write scripture, inerrant scripture.

I would say that the two are inseperable as it pertains to Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture and the apostles bringing forth both from God.

God only breathed on man twice, once at creation and once in John 20:21-23

I would say that they therefore were God breathed from that point on.
Check the *Catechism. *You claim more for Apostolic Tradition than the Church does, although she does claim a inspired authority for her doctrines, she does not hold the inspiration to be the ame God-breathed inspiration of Scripture.
 
It is important for Roman Catholics to argue against *Sola Scriptura *

because if they believe it, they can’t claim that the New Testament writers viewed certain *non-scriptural sources *as authoritative oral tradition.

OS, this is choice! You say we HAVE to argue AGAINST sola scriptura because to do otherwise would mean the NT makes references to “certain non-scriptural sources”??

Hmmm, well the ‘Bible’ wasn’t assembled by the Church (it was one Church, bro, and it was called Catholic because it was UNIVERSAL to the Roman world and beyond-St Thomas to India, for example) and declared CANONICAL until Pope St Damasus I in 382 AD.

So for 300 odd years those early Christians looked to …Sola Scriptura???
Please—a nice Christian thread.
Said Old Scholar as he writes scandalous and scurrilous tripe against Catholic priests and Catholic beliefs.

You are a real work of art, OS, we ‘Mary Worshippers’ will pray for you!

Robert
 
guanophore

I don’t believe it is possible for everyone to agree on everything but the truth is there in Scripture. Some may see it differently but that doesn’t change the truth.

Remember Scripture was still being written. It was important to remember what was said, but once it was written down and declared Scripture, then the truth was there. At least some of the traditions Paul was speaking of had to be traditions of custom.

What do you believe is sufficient that is not included in the Bible?

Regarding the other thread, remember that there are three kinds of baptism; water, fire and Spirit. Certainly water is always mentioned when speaking of that type of baptism. I can’t imagine the argument against that. I’ll have to try and find time to look at the other thread. My time is limited already and trying to answer all the questions takes a considerable amount of my computer time.
Congratulations on learning to use the quote feature.
 
Rather than show you where this information is, I suggest you do a little more research. The Jewish canon was established in 400 BC. Now look that up!
Whoa Nellie! You moved it back by 200 years!!!

Look in the Oxford Companion to the Bible under “Canon, Jewish.”

That’s EVERBODY’S source. What’s yours???

Robert
 
Time to bring out the summary from Schaff, Kelly, Pelikan, oh my.

Presbyterian/Reformed SCHAFF: For the early Church the divine Scriptures AND the oral tradition of the apostles or living apostolic Faith of the Catholic Church together formed the one infallible source and rule of faith for the Church; Church Tradition determined the canon of Scripture and furnished the key to the true interpretation of the Scriptures (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, volume 3, page 606);

Anglican KELLY: Throughout the whole period of the Fathers, Scripture AND Tradition ranked as complementary authorities, although overlapping or coincident in content; and if Scripture was “sufficient” in principle, Tradition provided the surest clue to Scripture’s true interpretation, for in Tradition the Church received, as a legacy from the apostles, an unerring grasp of the real meaning of revelation that both Tradition AND Scripture enshrined and bore witness (Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, page 47-48, 51);

Lutheran/Orthodox PELIKAN: There was no notion of Sola Scriptura in the ante-Nicene Church, neither was there a notion of Sola Traditio (Tradition alone); the one universal Catholic Church of the Fathers (neither Western/Catholic nor Eastern/Orthodox but both Catholic and Orthodox) was the repository of all revealed truth, the dispenser of all grace, and the only place where the true God accepted true worship, sacrifices, intercessions, good works, etc – only from this Church does the truth shine forth; heretics taught doctrines found neither in Scripture nor Tradition, while orthodox Catholics in the Church of the four Gospels and four Councils were faithful to both Scripture and Tradition (Pelikan, The Christian Tradition, volume 1, page115-117, 334-335).

Oh my! If that’s sola scriptura, then I fully accept sola scriptura as a Catholic. Thanks. 👍

Next: Yves Congar. :eek: 😃

Phil P
 
From Part I, Chapter 2 of Congar’s Tradition and Traditions on the ante-Nicene Fathers –

(A) The true Catholic Faith and true interpretation of the Scriptures is found only in the Church which is bound up with the succession of its ministers (apostolic succession, not of doctrine only, but of its bishops, ministers, pastors succeeding the authority of the apostles);

(B) The “rule of faith” or “rule of truth” was not the whole of Tradition; it may be the principal part, but there are other things transmitted from the apostles by tradition: rules of conduct, practice/behavior, on worship/liturgy, etc.

(C) The content of tradition consisted “materially” of the Scriptures, but “formally” of the Faith of the Catholic Church, its reading of the Scriptures in the Creed, etc; the mere text of Scripture alone was insufficient; heretics also quoted Scripture but they did not read that Scripture in the context of the Tradition or the orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church;

(D) The Catholic Church alone has received the apostolic deposit of truth, for in her the Holy Spirit of truth lives (John 14:16f; 16:13f); the Church alone is the sole inheritor of the true Christian teaching from God through Christ to the Apostles;

(E) This Tradition – the Church’s Tradition – is itself oral; and if there were no NT Scriptures it would have been sufficient for the Church to follow “the order of tradition” received from the apostles; in the minds of the early Christians it made no difference if the transmission was purely oral since there was an assured connection to the apostles through the Churches founded by the apostles to guarantee authenticity;

(F) Scripture was everything for the Fathers, and Tradition was everything also;

(G) What was the nature of the Church of the Fathers? It was one universal visible Church ruled by a hierarchy of bishops, presbyters/priests, deacons, etc in succession from the apostles (apostolic succession, again not “succession of doctrine” only);

(H) The entire activity of the Fathers demonstrates that they united three terms that were separated and set in opposition by the controversies of the 16th century – these three terms were Scripture, Tradition, and Church; it was always affirmed that Scripture is the rule and norm of faith only when conjoined to the Church and her Tradition;

(I) Hence, the Scriptures were never considered by the Fathers as formally “sufficient” or exclusive.

See also Yves Congar in “Excursis A: The Sufficiency of Scripture According to the Fathers and Medieval Theologians” on “material sufficiency.”

The point about appealing to 2 Thess 2:15 is this demonstrates that sola scriptura (Scripture alone) was certainly not true at the time the apostles were writing Scripture. Neither Jesus, nor the people of Jesus’ day, nor the apostles, nor their immediate successors (e.g. Timothy and Titus) practiced sola scriptura. They couldn’t. James White has admitted this in print and debate for at least a decade:

“…the doctrine [of sola scriptura] speaks of a rule of faith that exists. What do I mean by this? …You will never find anyone saying, ‘During times of enscripturation – that is, when new revelation was being given – sola scriptura was operational.’ Protestants do not assert that sola scriptura is a valid concept during times of revelation. How could it be, since the rule of faith to which it points was at that very time coming into being? One must have an existing rule of faith to say it is ‘sufficient.’ It is a canard to point to times of revelation and say, ‘See, sola scriptura doesn’t work there!’ Of course it doesn’t. Who said it did?” (see White’s 1997 response to Steve Ray on the Bereans and Sola Scriptura)

There was oral apostolic teaching, there was written, and they are both equally inspired or God-breathed or the Word of God or authoritative (2 Tim 3:16f; 1 Cor 2:4,7,13; 14:37; 1 Thess 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Peter 3:2,15f; Jude 3; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2:2; etc) and there is no indication in Scripture at that time that all doctrines or practices of the Christian faith had to be written down. So either the partim-partim Catholic (partly in Scripture, partly in tradition) or the “material sufficiency” Catholic can appeal to 2 Thess 2:15. The “material sufficiency” Catholic simply goes further to say that oral apostolic teaching is limited to customs or practices (e.g. prayers for the dead, infant baptism, etc), and not essential doctrines (the Trinity, the Immaculate Conception, etc) which are found in Scripture; whereas partim-partim Catholics suggest some doctrines are found in tradition, and some in Scripture. That’s my understanding of the partim-partim vs. material sufficiency distinction.

Phil P
 
Remember Scripture was still being written. It was important to remember what was said, but once it was written down and declared Scripture, then the truth was there. At least some of the traditions Paul was speaking of had to be traditions of custom.
I may be late to this party, but…

Precisely who was it that “declared Scripture” to be Scripture? For that matter, why should this mysterious someone’s declaration hold any water with regard to being an authoritative (and presumably binding) declaration? And was there any sort of “gap” or interval of time between said Scripture being penned, and it being “declared Scripture” by a competent and authoritative source? If so, what did the faithful do in this interval to determine genuine from counterfeit teaching?

UNLESS you can identify a group that was de facto “in charge” and given the green light to make such authoritative and binding declarations.

Now who could that be…no, don’t tell me…I’ll get it!

:hmmm:

This is one of the quandaries I ran headlong into years before I considered the Catholic Church. When it says in the Book of Acts that they [the believers] “followed the apostle’s doctrine”, what did this mean? It was nearly 1500 years too early before Guttenburg designed his printing press. They didn’t all have great big Schofield Study Bibles in red leatherette on the coffee table to refer to. They couldn’t just go into their library and check out a copy of the Tenach (much less the writings of the Apostles). So what was the primary vehicle for transmitting the faith? Logically it would have had to have been by word of mouth. The “Word of God” then likely had a much broader definition than many give it today. It quite likely refered to that whole deposit of faith that was entrusted to the apostles and their successors. Hence, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” rings true as the means of evangelizing and teaching the ekklesia.

This deposit is referred to as “Sacred Tradition” and enfolds the Holy Scriptures, the unchanging oral doctrine of the Church, and the perview of the Magesterium to declare authoritatively and without error the whole council of God.
 
Rob << Oh, and of course, those proof texts on the “Trinity” and that pesky “Jewish canon 200 years before Christ.” We are all so excited, waiting for YOUR references! >>

Sorry to be controversial, but I think there is a legitimate scholarly debate between Catholics and Protestants on the O.T. canon.

The OT Canon of the NT Church by Anglican Roger Beckwith presents the Anglican/Protestant side that the “correct canon” is the 39 of the Hebrew Bible, and he sets forth arguments it was settled a couple hundred years before Christ. He also deals with citations from the early Fathers, from Josephus, and others.

Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger by Gary Michuta presents the Catholic side that the OT canon of Jesus and the apostles was the Greek Septuagint which (probably) contained the deuteros, that the NT itself strongly alludes to the deuteros, that all of the Fathers before St. Jerome used the deuteros in their examples and biblical citations, considered the books “inspired” and “Scripture”, and that St. Jerome was really the first one to call the deuteros “apocrypha” and “not canonical.” Although even St. Jerome quoted these books along with the Hebrew canon.

As for the Trinity, I would suggest it is a biblical doctrine, but not an “explicit-enough” biblical doctrine in the sense required to refute fourth-century Arianism. St. Athanasius recognized that.

Sorry, now back to the topic of sola scriptura. And Old Scholar can attempt to tell me that Schaff, Kelly, Pelikan, Congar and James White are all wrong, that all the Fathers indeed taught sola scriptura, and that Jesus and the apostles practiced sola scriptura without a complete existing rule of faith. 😃 :eek:

Phil P
 
Although sola Scriptura may be played at varying levels of sophistication, it IS a straw man. Even the cleverest exponent of the doctrine must eventually rely upon either Tradition or his own interpretation – always claimed to be the personal guidance of the Holy Spirit.
As one who believes sola scriptura is a good doctrine, allow me to try express it properly. In order for sola scriptura to be applied properly, one must understand severalthings. Primarily, it is that Scripture (both Old and New Testaments) were written to people of ‘high-context cultures’, which meant that things that would have been understood by men of common backgrounds (say Luke and the person he is writing his Gospel and Acts to, or Paul and the churches he writes letters to, etc.) are left unsaid. Modern American ‘low-context culture’ spoon feeds everything, even if it is mere repetition to the intended audience. Things that would be mentioned by a writer in a ‘low-context culture’ are left unwritten in a ‘high-context culture’ because it is assumed that said audience, with a common background, would already know said things.

The problem for the modern reader (or any reader existing in the Post-Apostolic period) is filling in those ‘contextual blanks’. Filling in those ‘blanks’ is a necessary part of sola scriptura. To deny so, in my opinion, renders good exegetical interpretation of Scripture virtually imposible (barring Diving Revelation or blind ‘luck’ in the interpretive process).

What many people call sola scriptura might better be described as Sola Scriptura Extremis, which J. P. Holding of Tekton Apologetics Ministries discusses here.

Attempting to fill in these contextual blanks is usually accomplished through analysis of the following:
  1. Linguistic analysis (Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic do not translate perfectly into English or any other language and, for Hebrew and Greek, Biblical Hebrew and Greek are somewhat different from their contemporary variants)
  2. Contextual analysis (incl. textual, historical, social and cultural)
  3. Examination of previous interpretations (ECF, Reformers, Jewish [esp. for OT writings], etc.) and timely external commentary (Philo, Pliny, etc.) (timely external commentary to see what people witnessed Early Christians doing, etc.)
Obviously, this does not guarantee accuracy. After all, the Patristic and Pre-NT Jewish writings would have written within the framework of a ‘high-context culture’. This more nuanced method of sola scriptura seems also to require more patience (and also perhaps humility) than the ‘anything goes shot-in-the-dark’ method used by some well-known Protestants. In some ways, it would be nearly impossible for one person to do all this. After all, one maybe an expert in the Patristics, or Ancient Hebrew, or Roman history and culture, or a myriad of other things, but I have yet to meet someone who is truly all-knowing. The truly great modern apologists (and I would count J. P. Holding and people at Christian Think-Tank among them) have people who specialize in areas of knowledge (or at least have access to the writings of those with specialized knowledge) and they do not attempt to ‘go-it-alone’.

Perhaps Peter’s warning about prophecy being not of private interpretation should perhaps be applied a bit more to Scripture. The profit of sola scriptura is that it can promote each individual seeking a better understanding of Scripture and the faith, but the danger is that it can lead to laziness (people feel they need nothing else but their KJV bible), pride (people begin to think their interpretations of Scripture are the correct/best ones) and confusion (since so many people do put forth their private interpretations as factual, it makes it confusing to know who to believe).

Thus, it seems one is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Roman Catholics don’t believe in it and many Protestants may believe it, but they sure don’t apply it properly.
 
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