Why do Roman Catholics not accept Sola Scriptura?

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No one has ever questioned the authority of the church to settle such a dispute such as this. This is a disciplinary problem of the church. It doesn’t affect salvation or this person’s faith. That is for Christ to decide. The problem is that you believe there is only 1 church and that isn’t true.
You’re right. There isn’t only 1 church…- there is only One, TRUE church which Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first Pope…263 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI.
 
Rather than show you where this information is, I suggest you do a little more research. The Jewish canon was established in 400 BC. Now look that up!
Gee - a few posts ago, you said the following:
*** You need to study history a little more. The Jews canonized the Old Testament about 200 years before Christ. It hasn’t changed since, except for the Catholics trying to add to it.***
Tell me - WHICH statement is true, Old “Scholar”.
200 years B.C.??
400 years B.C.??
800 years B.C.??
This is proof that you are nothing but an antagonist - here only to ruffle feathers.

**Ummm . . . maybe YOU should do a little more research.👍 **
 
Code:
And still more from Basil:.....You just don't read the early fathers enough.  They ALL believed Scripture was the final word and tradition should not be believed without Scriptural proof.
That is not what the fathers are saying, OS. In fact, they are denouncing what you are promoting, which is separation of the scripture from Sacred Tradition. They are meant to be used together.
 
I think that Jimmy Akin makes a very good point, but as I pointed out to OS, since the ECF appeal to scripture then they also reject SS because it is unscriptural to begin with. That is why the Catholic Church rejects it.

I think I can readily agree with Jimmy Akin and I’m glad you provided that since it explains something that I suspect that I and many other Catholics may not know or understand any better than the n-Cs that we dialog with.
Thanks! 🙂
Let me ask you this. Jimmy A. seems to accept the material sufficiency of scripture, which of course is still a good leap away from accepting the formal sufficiency of scripture but the article seems to indicate that those who accept the material sufficiency of scripture believe that all is in scripture and all is in tradition.

If this is the case, I don’t understand the significance of

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


in the apologetic of a Catholic who accepts the material sufficiency of scripture since that particular Catholic, based on the article, would believe everything that is found in scripture is found in tradition and and everything in tradition is found in scripture. If this is the case than wouldn’t that Catholic believe that the traditions Paul mentions are found in scripture?
 
Rather than show you where this information is, I suggest you do a little more research. The Jewish canon was established in 400 BC. Now look that up!
I can’t! I ran out of fuel pellets and I had to use all the cases of Chick Tracts in the stove.:eek:
 
Infallibility of men was not necessary for acceptance of the infallible word of God.
So these men could have been wrong in deciding the Canon? I’m not infallible either and I *accept *the infallible word of God, but then again I did not decide which books were the infallible word of God.
 
So why don’t you tell me something that is necessary but is not included in the Bible?
Hope you don’t mind if I take a stab at this.

It is necessary (Tradition) that the Bible be read in light of the teachings of the Church (Magesterium) established by Jesus Christ (the Catholic Church) and to use the Church as the official interpreter, safeguard and foundation of Sacred Scripture. The Church is to be used as the *teacher *of Holy Scripture.

After writing that, I realized it *is *in Scripture - 1 Tim.3:15. I guess it’s true that no teaching of the Catholic Church contradicts scripture and vice versa. At least I tried…🤷
 
So these men could have been wrong in deciding the Canon? I’m not infallible either and I *accept *the infallible word of God, but then again I did not decide which books were the infallible word of God.
This is absolutely the position of those who do not accept the authority of the Church. Dr. R. C. Sproul, a highly responsible Christian apologist and teacher, understands how the canon was determined, and by what criteria, when, and by whom. His conclusion is that after the canon was formulated, the Church was no longer needed as a guide since the “pillar and foundation” of truth moved from the Church to the written page. As for the authority of the canon, he is famous for the following summation:

For Catholics, the Scriptures are an infallible collection of infallible books, while for Protestants, the Scriptures are a fallible collection of infallible books.

For me, in a “pick one” contest, the rational choices is door number one. But Sproul’s description of the Protestant view of the canon is actually perfectly consistent. You cannot accept the canon as accurate beyond any doubt if you do not accept the authority of the Church. It would be by such a rationale that they could toss the Deuterocanonical books, and by the same rationale Luther proposed eliminating a few books of the NT as well.
 
This is absolutely the position of those who do not accept the authority of the Church. Dr. R. C. Sproul, a highly responsible Christian apologist and teacher, understands how the canon was determined, and by what criteria, when, and by whom. His conclusion is that after the canon was formulated, the Church was no longer needed as a guide since the “pillar and foundation” of truth moved from the Church to the written page. As for the authority of the canon, he is famous for the following summation:

For Catholics, the Scriptures are an infallible collection of infallible books, while for Protestants, the Scriptures are a fallible collection of infallible books.

For me, in a “pick one” contest, the rational choices is door number one. But Sproul’s description of the Protestant view of the canon is actually perfectly consistent. You cannot accept the canon as accurate beyond any doubt if you do not accept the authority of the Church. It would be by such a rationale that they could toss the Deuterocanonical books, and by the same rationale Luther proposed eliminating a few books of the NT as well.
That’s utterly amazing to me. I just can’t wrap my puny brain around that logic. How do they clear it in their minds? My mind keeps going in circles when I try to process that logic.
 
You have given me a new tool: the concept/term “high-context culture.”

The Church was definitely the “high-context culture” in which Scripture emerges; the intersitces (sp) in the written word were not blank. The Catholic Church today remembers what fleshed-out the interstices. 👍

Rather, the Catholic Church WAS such a culture. From the pew’s-eye-view today, we need to do a lot of repetition and filling in blanks that were once part of the background.
This is an interesting idea that seems to have some merit. Let me run with it some and play.

So it then might be legitimately said that the Protestants in producing KJV in an old English colloquialism and font have changed the intersitces and committed fraud by not only embellishing the word of God through the Old English sans-serif but also abruptly changed and hijacked the traditions by recasting The Church to social mannerisms of a middle-age motif. 😉

I think its fair to say that Protestants KJV looses something in the translation by projecting Jesus into an out of era vernacular and motif. It is not too extreme to say that KJV drapes the Good News in the tones, manner, social cloth and speaking airs more common to an English Lord and “Gentleman” than they are to a sandled Jew speaking Aramaic. I wonder how many impressionable 1500’s era children (and later) hearing a recitation of KJV imagined Jesus walking about in coat tails, top hat and leather boots knocking door to door and inviting sinners to tea? 😃 And certainly the obtuse Old English fonts and lofty linguistic mannerisms in KJV present an unnecessary opportunity for new artifacts and error. After-all, the “thee’s” and “thou’s” and “thy’s” embellish not only the intersitces and other nuances but impose or encourage new private interpretations of traditions to be found hiding amidst the more flowery sans-serif. I wonder just how many years it will take modernist publishers to get to a revised KJV edition to produce a phrase like: ‘wouldst thou be favorably advised to partake of tea and crumpets in memory of me’ as a substitute for the last supper? 😉 :eek:

A dyed in the wool fundamentalist Sola Scruptura’st, should see that KJV taken alone without tradition easily defeats the traditionally conveyed white space seen and heard in the “ah’s”, "uhm’s, sighs, hand waving and other body language that are implicitly but conspicuously present (and therefor integral with the traditional faith) in the oral rendering of God’s word. At least the Catholics know to go to tradition to see and hear all that. But perhaps the impassioned hand waving with plain speech is an Italian thing? 😉

Bottom Line: I think that the point about the quiet words hiding in the white space and the intersitces is a valid point. Without benefit of tradition how would anyone even be able to translate the bible into modern words and semantics? I believe that any published Bible has to some degree incorporated an assumption of tradition in its translation. Therefor there is no valid concept of Scripture without Tradition since they are so co-joined that they can not ever be fully seperated anymore so than blood can be seperated from the living body.

Perhaps the more honest question that we need to ask here is “just what ‘Scriptura’ are we talking about” when we discuss “Sola Scriptura”? We Catholics think KJV is 7 books shy of truth. And I don’t think it is legitimate to discuss Sola Scruptura without co-discussing the associated Protestant Tradition of Private interpretation.

That said I’ll use the KJV rendering of scripture to recall the warning about those who would change the bible. Does KJV condemn itself here or is this a matter of deference to the Protestant tradition of private interpretation and pretending there is none?
Biblical Warnings About Changing The Word of God:
Deut. 4:2, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”

Deut. 12:32, “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”

Prov. 30:6, " Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

Rev. 22:18-19, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."What was the literal warning John gave in Revelations to those who would add to God’s word?
James
 
That’s utterly amazing to me. I just can’t wrap my puny brain around that logic. How do they clear it in their minds? My mind keeps going in circles when I try to process that logic.
Simple - they can’t without becoming infected with an irrational condition.

I am starting to have a different view of Luther now. Perhaps he knew that most common ordinary people distracted by the affairs of the world lacked the conviction necessary for a real chance at salvation. So perhaps he purposely planted a false teaching with the altruistic intention of inducing a condition of involuntary madness through circular reasoning? This would be a benevolent play on The Church’s doctrine on “invincible ignorance”. That would make Protestants back door Catholics since they could claim at judgement that committing a grave sin requires a conscious and rational mind and only a crazy person would reject The Truth and embrace the circularity of Protestantism. 😉

What’s scary is it might work. 🤷

James
 
Simple - they can’t without becoming infected with an irrational condition.

I am starting to have a different view of Luther now. Perhaps he knew that most common ordinary people distracted by the affairs of the world lacked the conviction necessary for a real chance at salvation. So perhaps he purposely planted a false teaching with the altruistic intention of inducing a condition of involuntary madness through circular reasoning? This would be a benevolent play on The Church’s doctrine on “invincible ignorance”. That would make Protestants back door Catholics since they could claim at judgement that committing a grave sin requires a conscious and rational mind and only a crazy person would reject The Truth and embrace the circularity of Protestantism. 😉

What’s scary is it might work. 🤷

James
Very interesting. Thanks for the dialog. 😉
 
How could the ‘pillar and bulwark of truth’ NOT be a single church that has a single set of truths? A pillar of truth has only one truth, it cannot have multiple truths and still be true, no?
So you don’t believe multiple churches can have the same set of truths?
 
Jesus and His Apostles taught and wrote from them with the status of “it is written”, therefore,the Church considers them part of Jesus’ canon.
**You must elaborate on this. Where did these books claim such? Where did they say they were inspired?

Give us the verses where Jesus quoted from them or said they were Scripture.**
 
You must elaborate on this. Where did these books claim such? Where did they say they were inspired?
Ha, what irony!
OldScholar, Where does the New Testiment claim that it is inspired? Give us the verses where Jesus said the the Books of the New Testiment were Scripture!
 
The trinity is a result of the midrash (commentary) and Tradition of the Magisterium.

It is NOT mentioned in Scripture which is your benchmark for Sola Scriptura, OS.

Come on, quit the intellectual posturing! Either be consistent or try another tack.

Robert
To say that the trinity (fact, not the word alone) isn’t not mentioned in the Bible shows a certain amount of ignorance of the Scriptures.
 
Scripture is said to be “God-breathed.” Nothing else is given this designation. This term is never applied to “tradition.” Paul gives this information to Timothy in order to instill confidence in the scriptures. Paul reminds Timothy of the “difficult” times coming upon them, during which all kinds of heresies and disobedience will arise. (3:1-9). Timothy is told to stand firm in the things he has learned. Things known from the scriptures. Scripture is “God-breathed” and therefore inspired and infallible and that can’t be applied to tradition.
From the last Chapter of the Gospel of John…
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

If the power to forgive sins, given only to the Apostles (along with the binding and loosing = laying of hands = handing on authority) is not God breathed, what, praytell, is??

.
 
**You must elaborate on this. Where did these books claim such? Where did they say they were inspired?

Give us the verses where Jesus quoted from them or said they were Scripture.**
I would like to direct you again to Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger by Gary Michuta. One of the first chapters of the book provides an extensive list of references that the NT makes to these books. This issue has been hotly debated for centuries and not new at all. You just need to do some homework if you are honestly seeking answers.
 
To say that the trinity (fact, not the word alone) isn’t not mentioned in the Bible shows a certain amount of ignorance of the Scriptures.
I would disagree. There are several obvious events in Scripture and then there are those that have needed clarification. For instance, if we gave a Bible to someone who has never heard of any religion, that person could more than likely tell us the Ten Commandments, the 2 Great Commandments, the name of Jesus’ mother and foster father, as well as many other events and doctrines. One thing that I doubt they would know is the concept in the Trinity. The Trinity is like one of those drawings that can be 2 different things (beautiful princess held one way, old woman the other) Sometimes people need to be led to see it. That is what Tradition has done with the Trinity and many other dogmas of the Church. Tradition shows us where a lot of these dogmas are in scripture. Not that all have to be, as stated earlier, that would be unscriptural.

God Bless.🙂
 
So you don’t believe multiple churches can have the same set of truths?
No it is not possible since the plurality itself implies that the condition is false. In a Christian context this therefore becomes an unreasonable hypothetical assertion. Jesus told Peter that he would build His church on This Rock. He did not speak of a legion of churches forming a loose Christian Federation with no central authority. A house divided can not stand any more so than truth can be divided against itself any more so than the 3 persons of the Trinity can be seperated in part from the One Godhead.

Please, enough of your one liner nonsense.

Tell us the specific churches who you think have the one truth in the gospel according to Old Scholar.

James
 
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