Why do Roman Catholics not accept Sola Scriptura?

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I’ll post from Scripture one more time, YOU tell me what this means:
Matthew 16:16-18

What is the CHURCH?? What does it mean that the “gates of the netherworld” shall not “prevail” against it?
It is those individuals who are truly “in Christ”.
Interesting answer justasking4. I don’t agree with the interpretation but see where you are coming from. But who is right? Two sincere Christians reaching different conclusions with huge consequences.

Let me ask if your definition of Church is the same in this quote: "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. " 1Tim3:15
 
Old Scholar, I have been waiting a week for you to answer *my *questions.

Is that how you avoid a direct question? After all, you made a certain specific claim but won’t support it. Does that destroy your credibility?
I think what O.S. wants us to do is to accept his interpretation of Scriptures as infallible. I’d like to know who died and left him charge? Talk about a credibility crisis -WOW!
 
in “THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF BLESSED MARY” A.D. 383 St Jerome against Helvidius wrote…

…message truncated…

St Basil
Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 ante A.D. 379

“The friends of Christ **do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin” **
If only Old Scholar would study the writings of the Reformers on Mary, the Mother of Jesus, he will find that the Reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.

“It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin.” Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320

Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was “Holy Virgin”.

“Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.”
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.

“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity.
Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.

Ulrich Zwingli : “I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.” E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.

Ulrich Zwingli “Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin.” Ibid.
There has been a major cover up of early reformist Marian teachings due to the iconoclastic fervor of post-reformists, which was catalyzed in the Enlightenment Era, an era that gave birth to formal atheism, relativism, individualism, liberalism, and ultimately, communism.

Mary a sinner and Mary who had other children are post-reformist fads that blasphemes God. They are doctrines of demons. God and sin cannot coexist and God did not chose the Spouse of the Holy Spirit to be a bigamist.
 
Then if you are a true believer, you must believe the early church fathers believed that your traditions must be supported by Scripture, or, it is as they say, false…
are you a true believer?
do you really thing that the Fathers are contracdicting themselves or is it you who are reading wrong and misenterpreting their writings?
 
I’m sure you can quote the Scripture that will support what Aquinas said???
The Lord said: “And you are Peter, upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail. and to you i give the keys of the kingdom.”

“I will send the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth.”

He was not talking to me or you, He was talking to the Apostle only.( just in case you think that Jesus was talking to you.)

The Church is the Pillar and bullwark of Truth."’
 
I notice you have no refutation for what the early church fathers had to say about tradition being false unless it can be supported by Scripture.

That kind of takes the heart out of your belief system doesn’t it!

You see, the Catholic Church originally followed Scripture…
Oh contraire. Your pattern of quoting fragments of the early church father’s out of context has already been spoken too many times by others in this forum. Your disingenuous attempt to mosaic a new early church epistle by clipping words from different sections of documents from different authors is very much reminiscent of what kidnapper’s used to try to do in forming ransom letters from random and context-free newpaper clippings.

You are an intelligent man yet you stoop to these sort of disingenuous mechanisms knowing full well that what you do is morally wrong - and gravely so. It is heartless to assert a revisionist history knowing full well what the historical truth it. In the rhetoric you construct a golden calf out of scripture and try to yoke The Church to the new labor of pushing it from behind. Shame! Shame! Shame!

James
 
Hi,All
Matt !8:18 In truth I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; Whtever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I think we should notice the implicit (possibly even explicit) in this passage from Matthew is the fact that the “Church” must have been a visible, tangible entity established in a hierarchically. Otherwise, how would anyone have known to whom the wrongdoer should be referred? If any other definition of “church” were correct, then the wrongdoer would have to “hear” each and every believer who existed, hoping that there would be unanimity among them regarding the issue at hand. The inherent absurdity of this scenario is readily apparent. The only way we can make sense of Our Lord’s statement is to acknowledge that there is a definite organization, to which an appeal could be made and from which a decisive judgment could be had.

Peace. OneNow1:bible1:
 
Is that the same Augustine who said that anything that couldn’t be found in Scripture was false? And the same one who said that Christ built His church upon the faith of Peter and not upon Peter the man?
you must be a very confused person. :confused:

you dont know how to separate things.

St Augustine was not against the Sacred Traditions given by Apostles carried on by the CC. if would be so, St Augustine would not be a part of the CC. St Augustine was a great defender of the CC at the time when there were so many heretics just like now trying to tear the CC into pieces and discredit the Church of the LOrd.
 
You are absolutely right. It was the “tearing asunder of the faith” that has been done by the RCC that has cause them to adjust the Scriptures to fit their traditions, or at least teach that they do.
that it is your opinion or whoever has tought you that.
reminding you that in nowhere in the Bible you are going to find your religions. Pride brings distraction. I see pride in you to think that you got the Bible from the CC and yet you dont believe on this Church. now how can you believe on the Catholic Book, THE BIBLE, if you dont trust the one who put it together?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Scholar
Is that the same Augustine who said that anything that couldn’t be found in Scripture was false? And the same one who said that Christ built His church upon the faith of Peter and not upon Peter the man?

Tell me please what do you know about that . what is it that the CC teaches that is false to you?
according to the Bible
 
Interesting answer justasking4. I don’t agree with the interpretation but see where you are coming from. But who is right? Two sincere Christians reaching different conclusions with huge consequences.

Let me ask if your definition of Church is the same in this quote: "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. " 1Tim3:15
It depends on what the “Essentials” are. JA4’s response seems to be that none of the following is “Essential” I have not found the word “Essential” in my Bible Search:
“Sorry. No results found for “essentials” in Keyword Search”
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=essentials&x=8&y=13

Doctrine of “Essential Doctrine” is “unBiblical.”

-Disagreements between Baptists and Lutherans over water baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Both sides read and rely on the same verses for their respective positions. They just interpret the passages differently.

-Pentecostals versus everybody else regarding speaking in tongues. The same Bible verses yield different opinions depending on who is doing the reading.

-Calvinists versus Methodists on the “TULIP” question? They argue from the same Bible verses yet they have different conclusions.

Do Baptists alone have all the correct answers – or is it the Lutherans who have the correct answers? Or John Wesley?
ja4’s way around this is evidenced in his reply to Notworthy on the thread, Who is your authority:
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NotWorthy:
But that is just it. When I see something out of sync with the Scriptures, it already is a Protestant religion - be it Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS, Double Pre-destination, the Rapture. These are all unbiblcial, and they are all believed at least in part by every Protestant religition out there.
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justasking4:
There are some protestant churches that are out of sync. However the doctrines here are debateable and are not essential for salvation.
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justasking4:
There is enough clarity in the scriptures for us to know the essentials.
justasking:
I’m trying to understand what the essentials are of the gospel message is in the catholic church.
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justasking4:
One place to look would be I Corinthians 15:1-4. Would you agree this is an essential?
 
If only Old Scholar would study the writings of the Reformers on Mary, the Mother of Jesus, he will find that the Reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.

“It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin.” Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320

Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was “Holy Virgin”.

“Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.”
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.

“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity.
Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.

Ulrich Zwingli : “I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.” E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.

Ulrich Zwingli “Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin.” Ibid.
There has been a major cover up of early reformist Marian teachings due to the iconoclastic fervor of post-reformists, which was catalyzed in the Enlightenment Era, an era that gave birth to formal atheism, relativism, individualism, liberalism, and ultimately, communism.

Mary a sinner and Mary who had other children are post-reformist fads that blasphemes God. They are doctrines of demons. God and sin cannot coexist and God did not chose the Spouse of the Holy Spirit to be a bigamist.
And, if I may add: “This Divine Maternity gained for her privileges so lofty, that they surpass all understanding. For, in fact, from it comes to her such honor, such beatitude, that she is, out of the entire human race, the unique person who is superior to all, who has no equal, because she possess such a Son in common with the heavenly Father . . . Therefore, this sole title of Mother of God contains all honor, for none can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass; the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand.” - Martin Luther’s “Super Magnificat”

This work by Martin Luther was written in 1521, the year following his revolt.

So it seems that O.S. cannot even get his own Protestant oral tradition straight.
 
Orionthehunter;3294343]
Quote:
Originally Posted by qui est ce
I’ll post from Scripture one more time, YOU tell me what this means:
Matthew 16:16-18
What is the CHURCH?? What does it mean that the “gates of the netherworld” shall not “prevail” against it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
It is those individuals who are truly “in Christ”.
Orionthehunter
Interesting answer justasking4. I don’t agree with the interpretation but see where you are coming from.
What is the infallible interpretation of the catholic church on this?
But who is right? Two sincere Christians reaching different conclusions with huge consequences.
The one who takes a much as the scrirptures in context would be right.
Let me ask if your definition of Church is the same in this quote: "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. " 1Tim3:15
Who makes up the church in this context?

In the context of this passage who does Paul say the church is?
 
" Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, “Ask, seek, knock;” Matthew 7:7 by Paul, when he says, “That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;” Ephesians 3:7 by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it. The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; and yet you choose rather to bark at these things than to obey them. I will tell you in one word what I think. Do you listen to the learned men of the Catholic Church with as peaceable a disposition, and with the same zeal, that I had when for nine years I attended on you: there will be no need of so long a time as that during which you made a fool of me. In a much, a very much, shorter time you will see the difference between truth and vanity."

St Augustine.
 
Interesting answer justasking4. I don’t agree with the interpretation but see where you are coming from. But who is right? Two sincere Christians reaching different conclusions with huge consequences.

Let me ask if your definition of Church is the same in this quote: "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. " 1Tim3:15
What is the infallible interpretation of the catholic church on this?

The one who takes a much as the scrirptures in context would be right.

Who makes up the church in this context?

In the context of this passage who does Paul say the church is?
I’ll answer your questions despite not having an answer to my last question regarding what is “Church” in 1 Timothy?

The “on the rock” verse is the placing Peter (first Pope) as the visible head of the Church on earth. There are numerous threads on this matter.
 
Show me the writings of those writers I quoted that support the perpetual virginity of Mary…
In Protestant apologetics, the Blessed Mother receives a lot of attention, all of it negative. Great stress is laid on “the brethren of the Lord” (Mark 3:31). A Fundamentalist commentary identifies them for us.

“Who were the “brothers” and “sisters” of Jesus, mentioned in Matthew 13:55-56 and Mark 6:3? Mary’s own children? Or children of Joseph by a former marriage? Or cousins? The plain, simple, natural meaning of these passages is that they were Mary’s own children. This is the OPINION [emph. mine] commonly held among Protestant commentators. And it is substantiated by the statement in Luke 2:7 that Mary “brought forth her FIRST-BORN [emph. theirs] son.” Why “first-born,” if there were no others? . . . As for Mary’s “perpetual virginity,” how about Matthew 1:25?”

Matthew 1:25 says: “And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and called his name Jesus.”

Reading this, we get some idea of the burdens borne by those who are “free” to interpret Holy Scripture, while tightly tethered to a tradition made up of reasons not to believe. Those who just believe are spared much confusion.

The "plain, simple, natural meaning " is not necessarily the meaning God intended to convey. These revealed truths encompass supernatural realities beyond our experience. Negative Protestant oral tradition, exerting its shrinking, narrowing, and leveling effect on everything it touches, shows its inadequacies when faced with the sublime, which is to say, all the time.

O.S.'s tone reflects his confidence that these objections to Catholic teaching are irrefutable and conclusive. But unlike “the opinion commonly held among Protestant commentators,” which is only a denial and requires no research at all, Catholic opinion is drawn from twenty centuries of scholarship and an even older history, all of it in complete accord with Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The questions raised by the term “brothers and sisters of Jesus,” and the application to the child Jesus of the title “firstborn” can be ANSWERED, and answerd without denying other known truths. The reference texts put forth to prove Protestant denials, Matthew 13:55-56, Mark 6:3, Luke 2:7, and Matthew 1:25 are all being made to say essentially the same things: our Lord had brothers and sisters; Mary and Joseph were ordinary people. Except for Him, the Holy Family was an ordinary family just like everybody else’s. Did I say “leveling”?

This leveling is required by Protestant principles. If it be essential to fiduciary faith that it infallibly assures the sinner of his own justification, it cannot mean anything but a firm conviction of the actual possession of grace. Moreover, if there is no interior righteousness capable of increase or decrease, if the sinner is justified through God’s sanctity eternally the same, it is evident that all the just from the common mortal to the apostles and the Blessed Virgin Mary possess one and the same degree of righteousness and sanctity. This notion is proved totally false by three little words in the New Testament, St. Peter’s admonition: “Grow in grace” (2 Peter 3:18).

Helvidius, writing about 380, attacked the perpetual virginity of Mary by asserting that the “brethren of the Lord” were sons of Mary and Joseph, born after the virginal conception of Jesus. At first, St. Jerome refused to reply to a doctrine that was “novel, wicked and a daring affront to the faith of the whole world.” But he was finally prevailed upon by friends to write “De Perpetua Virginitate B. Mariae.” In this masterly treatise against Helvidius, he showed the falsity of the latter’s teaching not only by convincing arguments based on the explanation or critical interpretation of the relevant texts, but by an appeal to the testimony of Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr and all the other men going back apostolic times who had written on the subject.

Helvidius was effectively silenced and never ventured a reply. Little more was heard of his theory until it was revived by those nearer to our times.
 
qui est ce;3294722]It depends on what the “Essentials” are. JA4’s response seems to be that none of the following is “Essential” I have not found the word “Essential” in my Bible Search:
“Sorry. No results found for “essentials” in Keyword Search”
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=essentials&x=8&y=13
Doctrine of “Essential Doctrine” is “unBiblical.”
Do you believe that a person must believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again to be a Christian? Is this an essential doctrine that must be believed to be saved?
Or let me put it another way: can a person reject this and still be considered a Christian?
-Disagreements between Baptists and Lutherans over water baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Both sides read and rely on the same verses for their respective positions. They just interpret the passages differently.
Do they both believe that water baptism is part of the Christian life and should be done at some time?
-Pentecostals versus everybody else regarding speaking in tongues. The same Bible verses yield different opinions depending on who is doing the reading.
True
-Calvinists versus Methodists on the “TULIP” question? They argue from the same Bible verses yet they have different conclusions.
Don’t know about this.
Do Baptists alone have all the correct answers – or is it the Lutherans who have the correct answers? Or John Wesley?
ja4’s way around this is evidenced in his reply to Notworthy on the thread, Who is your authority:
Certainly each group believes they have the right answer. Now lets look at what the catholic church infallibly teaches on speaking in tongues. What do they say that all catholics must believe?

There are a number of different lists of popes. Which one is the correct one?

Or take purgatory. How long is a catholic soul there?

Or can one be a catholic and still support abortion?

Finally, what must a person believe and practice to be considered a catholic?
 
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