C
Canto
Guest
You mean the same fathers who believed in Mary’s virginity, the ONE Church, the real presence in the Eucharist, Tradition etc?
see www.scripturecatholic.com for a mountain of refferences.
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see www.scripturecatholic.com for a mountain of refferences.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
hei guys! one more invention by the CC:
“The Church is hidden from no one for it is the Catholic Church
itself which is therefore called universal in Greek because it is spread throughout the entire world. It is not allowed to anyone not to know this Church for which reason, according to the word of Jesus Christ, it is not possible that it be hidden. There are many other things which keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church – the unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here, her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests from the very seat of the Apostle Peter up to the present episcopate keeps me here and last, the very name of Catholic, which not without reason belongs to this Church alone in the face of so many heretics, so much so that although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where a Catholic Church meets, not one of the heretics would dare point out his own basilica or meeting place. The name of the Catholic Church is peculiar to the true Church.”
St. Augustine.
“The Church is hidden from no one for it is the Catholic Church
itself which is therefore called universal in Greek because it is spread throughout the entire world. It is not allowed to anyone not to know this Church for which reason, according to the word of Jesus Christ, it is not possible that it be hidden. There are many other things which keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church – the unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here, her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests from the very seat of the Apostle Peter up to the present episcopate keeps me here and last, the very name of Catholic, which not without reason belongs to this Church alone in the face of so many heretics, so much so that although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where a Catholic Church meets, not one of the heretics would dare point out his own basilica or meeting place. The name of the Catholic Church is peculiar to the true Church.”
St. Augustine.
G
guanophore
Guest
This is a common example to drastically show the possible results when a person cherry picks verses out of context and tries to fit them together to create doctrine. I agree with you, we are tryin got evanglize and educate. However, there are some anti-Catholics here that might do well to “go away”, and take their hostility with them. I do not think that tearing at the Body of Christ is beneficial to any.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
you make no sense now.
for they are part of the CC they were thought by the CC.
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guanophore
Guest
Ok, so we are in agreement that Jesus is God, and that He breathed on the Apostles, and gave them authority.
We are in agreement that the HS is God, and therefore is perfoming the completion of God’s design.
Please tell me, to whom is this promise made?
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:13-15
No, ja4, the presence of error does not subtract from the truth, any more that the Pharisees denying who Jesus is subtracts from who He actually is. People teaching falsehoods, as you do on this forum, do not change the True Teachings that come to us from Jesus and the Apostles. In fact, such false teachers serve to strengthen the truth even more. It is by such false teachers that the Truth becomes even more manifest. I know that you desperately desire that bringing your anti-catholic sentiments here to pursuade Catholics to leave their faith, but it will not work. In fact, Catholics who really want to grow in their faith will be purified by your attacks and calumny.
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Lampo
Guest
This is in response to post #916:
That’s true about some *individual *Catholics, but not true about the Catholic Church. The Church is very clear on what she teaches. Who has the official Protestant definition of Sola Scriptura? If you want to know the official definition or teaching on a Catholic doctrine such as Tradition or the Communion of Saints for example, while it is true some *individual *Catholics may not know the answer, the answer is in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is authoritative and contains the fullness of truth.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
how about this quote!
“According to the promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains free from all taint of heresy or deceit in its pontiffs, the Popes, and in the full faith and authority of Peter, and while other churches are shamed by errors, she reigns the solitary Church, unshakably established, imposing silence and closing the mouths of heretics and we, of necessity for our salvation, proclaim and confess this as the pattern of holy, apostolic tradition.”
St Thomas Aquinas.
“According to the promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains free from all taint of heresy or deceit in its pontiffs, the Popes, and in the full faith and authority of Peter, and while other churches are shamed by errors, she reigns the solitary Church, unshakably established, imposing silence and closing the mouths of heretics and we, of necessity for our salvation, proclaim and confess this as the pattern of holy, apostolic tradition.”
St Thomas Aquinas.
C
Canto
Guest
MORE bible evidence for Mary’s perpetual virginity
In Luke 1:34, Mary asks Gabriel how it could be that she should conceive a child, since she has no relations with men; yet, we know that St. Joseph was her betrothed (Luke 1:27), so her statement only makes sense if we interpret it to mean that Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity and therefore didnt know how she should conceive a child
When Jesus is found in the temple (Luke 2:41-51), we read of no other children; this is strange because Jesus siblings could have helped find Jesus when Mary and Joseph were looking for him.
In Mark 6:3, Jesus is called the son of Mary, not a son of Mary’s
Nowhere in the Bible is anyone but Jesus referred to as Marys son
In John 19:26-27, Jesus entrusts Mary to the care of St. John; why not to his siblings care, as Jewish custom would have been?
There is another very important thing to note. In the Bible, we read that Jesus brothers gave advice to him and sought to restrain him for his own good (cf. John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21).
However, as Karl Keating notes:
In ancient and, particularly, in Eastern societies…, older sons gave advice to the younger, but younger never gave advice to older–it was considered disrespectful to do so…This kind of behavior could make sense for ancient Jews only if the brethren were older than Jesus, but that alone eliminates them as his brothers german, since Jesus, we know, was Marys first-born. (Matt 1:25)
Matthew 1:25: [Joseph] knew [Mary] not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus. St. Matthew wants to show us that Mary could not have been pregnant from St. Joseph, because he did not have any relations with her up to the point when she got pregnant. To say that he definitely did afterwards is a misconclusion. He could have, the text leaves this open, but it does not imply that he actually did. An analogy will help. If a mother says to her child, Behave yourself until I come home, does this imply the child can or should behave badly when the mother is back? Hardly.
[At the time it was custom for a betroval before a wedding, as I explained in a previous post, this could also explain the 'knew her not"]
Ezekiel 44:2-3:
And he said to me, This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.
even the devil himself used the Scriptures to tempt Jesus, see Matthew 3:6), because they can be misinterpreted (2 Peter 3:15-16). In light of Tradition…the Scriptures show that Mary was a perpetual virgin.
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/BHBch9.html
In Luke 1:34, Mary asks Gabriel how it could be that she should conceive a child, since she has no relations with men; yet, we know that St. Joseph was her betrothed (Luke 1:27), so her statement only makes sense if we interpret it to mean that Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity and therefore didnt know how she should conceive a child
When Jesus is found in the temple (Luke 2:41-51), we read of no other children; this is strange because Jesus siblings could have helped find Jesus when Mary and Joseph were looking for him.
In Mark 6:3, Jesus is called the son of Mary, not a son of Mary’s
Nowhere in the Bible is anyone but Jesus referred to as Marys son
In John 19:26-27, Jesus entrusts Mary to the care of St. John; why not to his siblings care, as Jewish custom would have been?
There is another very important thing to note. In the Bible, we read that Jesus brothers gave advice to him and sought to restrain him for his own good (cf. John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21).
However, as Karl Keating notes:
In ancient and, particularly, in Eastern societies…, older sons gave advice to the younger, but younger never gave advice to older–it was considered disrespectful to do so…This kind of behavior could make sense for ancient Jews only if the brethren were older than Jesus, but that alone eliminates them as his brothers german, since Jesus, we know, was Marys first-born. (Matt 1:25)
Matthew 1:25: [Joseph] knew [Mary] not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus. St. Matthew wants to show us that Mary could not have been pregnant from St. Joseph, because he did not have any relations with her up to the point when she got pregnant. To say that he definitely did afterwards is a misconclusion. He could have, the text leaves this open, but it does not imply that he actually did. An analogy will help. If a mother says to her child, Behave yourself until I come home, does this imply the child can or should behave badly when the mother is back? Hardly.
[At the time it was custom for a betroval before a wedding, as I explained in a previous post, this could also explain the 'knew her not"]
Ezekiel 44:2-3:
And he said to me, This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.
even the devil himself used the Scriptures to tempt Jesus, see Matthew 3:6), because they can be misinterpreted (2 Peter 3:15-16). In light of Tradition…the Scriptures show that Mary was a perpetual virgin.
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/BHBch9.html
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guanophore
Guest
By what authority do you assert this? Why is your authority more valid than the Successors of the Apostles?
Don’t you find it odd that this teaching only emerged in the last 200 years?
We understand the Scripture in the light of the Teachings from which it emerged. The two were never meant to be separated.
I don’t see how this is a problem. Jesus is illustrating that even our closest relatives should not stand between ourselves and Him.
What is unnatural is separating the Holy Writing from the Holy Tradition from which they were produced.
This is because you reject the Sacred Tradition. I dare you to go over to the Eastern Forum, find some Orthodox, and try to convince them that these are children of Mary, the Ever Virgin. In fact, I will come over there and watch, and not even say anything! These teachings were handed down to us from the early church. They are not “Roman” as you seem to think, and they are not a “misunderstanding” of the writings. In fact, I wager that the NT writers would never dream that people such as yourself would stumble over such matters, since they were plainly evident to the writers.
They may not be step brothers, though that is early tradition. They may be children of Joseph from a previous marriage, they are children of Mary, the wife of Clopas, who may be a sister of Joseph. We don’t know, but we know they are brethren, and we know that Mary had only one Child.
How is this an inaccurate premise?
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THurifer2
Guest
Why do protestants think the bible fell out of the sky?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Anybody knows anything about Martin Luther repentence?
or his confession could have remained a secret since confession cannot be revealed?
or his confession could have remained a secret since confession cannot be revealed?
C
Canto
Guest
2 John 1:12 Having more to write to you, I wish not to by paper and ink; for I hope to be with you, and speak face to face; that your joy may be full.
So John has more to write but would rather make known face to face – orally
So what exactly are these things he hoped to be made know face to face???
So John has more to write but would rather make known face to face – orally
So what exactly are these things he hoped to be made know face to face???
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
How about here?
St. Hilary of Poitiers (+356):
“The Church, instituted by the Lord and confirmed by the Apostles, is one for all men; but the frantic folly of the diverse impious sects has cut them off from her. It cannot be denied that this tearing asunder of the Faith has arisen from the defect… which twists what is read to conform to its opinion, instead of adjusting its opinion to the meaning of what is read.” (F.O.F., Vol. 1: 865)
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Pwrlftr
Guest
Please tell us.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
I notice you have no refutation for what the early church fathers had to say about tradition being false unless it can be supported by Scripture.
That kind of takes the heart out of your belief system doesn’t it!
You see, the Catholic Church originally followed Scripture…
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Then if you are a true believer, you must believe the early church fathers believed that your traditions must be supported by Scripture, or, it is as they say, false…
We believe in the early fathers as a matter fact they are our Saints. did you get to read their quotes supporting the CC since they are part of this Church or do you also choose to ignore anything that confirms the CC is the True Church? It was then, it is now and forever will be: according to the Lord.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
You are absolutely right. It was the “tearing asunder of the faith” that has been done by the RCC that has cause them to adjust the Scriptures to fit their traditions, or at least teach that they do.
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wow
Guest
I find that the tearing asunder of the faith to be the “protest” people who left the Church and adjusted the Scriptures to fit their traditions.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
I’m sure you can quote the Scripture that will support what Aquinas said???
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Show me the writings of those writers I quoted that support the perpetual virginity of Mary…
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