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Church_Militant
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I WANT him to try that because he can’t do it without pulling the quotes out of context like he has so far.
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Church_Militant
Guest
and rightly so.
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Church_Militant
Guest
and in 2006, the pope abolished that doctrine. Not there is no need to have to list that one because it is very well known by all because we lived through that one.
So I will continue to list dogma and doctrinal changes as time goes along.If you knew what you were talking about that would certainly help. As has been pointed out to you, Limbo was never a doctrine and the clarification was welcome by most all of us.
Who knows, maybe some of the n-C communities will follow the lead and “abolish” things like “altar calls” and “the Romans Road to Salvation”.
J
justasking4
Guest
Even though Limbo was not an offical doctrine of the catholic church did the church ever say to its priests and leaders not to talk about it? Did not priests use this as a comfort to those that lost infants in death?If you knew what you were talking about that would certainly help. As has been pointed out to you, Limbo was never a doctrine and the clarification was welcome by most all of us.
Who knows, maybe some of the n-C communities will follow the lead and “abolish” things like “altar calls” and “the Romans Road to Salvation”.
Did not the church give the impression to its people that it was indeed true?
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Church_Militant
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mercygate
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Did these men believe that Jesus Christ was one Person with two natures, and was consubstantial and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit? The history of heresy had not matured to require such belief in precise detail in their earthly life, yet because they held the faith of the Church, like Abraham, who went in faith to a land he knew not, they held those beliefs through faith in Christ – as they do now.
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justasking4
Guest
Where does Jesus or Paul teach **you must be celibate **to be a leader?
Where do they teach that if you are married you cannot be a bishop for example?
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Church_Militant
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Obedience is always a mandate, disciplines can and do change.
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Irish_Saints
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WOW…condescending much? It’s a good thing Catholics are good at genuflecting, seeing as we’re in the presence of such intellectual magnificence.
What was that old saw about “pride coming before a fall…?” Now where did I see that?
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justasking4
Guest
Is it not true that obedience and disciplines are based on some doctrines?Originally Posted by justasking4
What about eating meat on any Fridays used to be a sin but its not now? Would this qualify as a doctrine-practice that has changed?
Church Militant
Obedience is always a mandate, disciplines can and do change.
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Church_Militant
Guest
You have yet to prove this allegation and since it is not relevant to Sola Scriptura, why don’t you stay on topic and stop wandering while avoiding the real meat of the discussion.
Just because you think something does not make it a fact. in this case…not even close.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Your question tells a lot about your mindset as well as your focus. I don’t think you can see the forest for the trees here.
Did not Jesus tell us to DENY OURSELVES and take up our cross and follow him? Did not Jesus say those who wish to be the greatest must be the least? Did he not tell us that ‘a student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master’ ? Remember this is the same Jesus who washed the feet of His disciples (symbolic of forgiving venial sins) as a servant.
Our priests lead by serving and by example and they emulate Jesus by denying themselves and by subordinating their needs to emulate what Christ did. If Christ was celibate then as God’s High Priest Jesus Himself through His life-example sets the standard for the sacerdotal tradition. Who is to argue with Jesus?
Some of you Protestants seem to think Christian service is suppose to be like an avenue to power or some kind of a lofty career path. It’s not.
James
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Church_Militant
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. He is speaking of common people and in 1 Cor he is speaking of women.
His instructions for a bishop are really quote clear. Why would the church change them?That’s not true, it’s just something that you are reading into the text.
This is an excellent example of the way some n-Cs will twist both scripture and its application to make it appear to support their teachings. I’m glad I don’t attend your church.
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justasking4
Guest
These may be inner qualities of a servant but they are not speaking of the qualifications of a leader in the church. Go to I Timothy 3:4-7 for that.
My argument is not with Christ but with how the catholic church uses the scriptures to support its doctrines. I’ve asked this before: Where does Jesus mandate that a man must be celibate to serve?
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CentralFLJames
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that in men pride was the 2nd thing to fall.WOW…condescending much? It’s a good thing Catholics are good at genuflecting, seeing as we’re in the presence of such intellectual magnificence.
What was that old saw about “pride coming before a fall…?” Now where did I see that?
It probably explains why so many men convert to Catholicism when they are on the downhill side of life.
James
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Canto
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Affraid not. For example
Jesus said “this is my body”
John 6:56-57 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
Those who did not believe his word walked not with him (John 6:66)
Saint Ignatius of Antioch said “I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ.” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 – 100 AD)
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (St. Augustine, Sermons 227 AD 411)
Catholic Church 2008 exactly the same
“Hail Full of Grace” Luke 1:28
“for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed” Luke 1:48
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
Catholic Church 2008 exactly the same
“Man is justified by works and not faith alone.” James 2:24
“To them truly that according to patience in good work, See glory and honour and incorruption, life eternal (Rom 2:10),”
“And I saw the dead, great and little, standing in the sight of the throne, and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is of life: and the dead were judged of those things which were written in the books according to their works (Rev 20:12).”
“work your salvation” (2 Philippians 2:12)
“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.” (John10:37)
“God by his mercy has saved us through Christ. By his grace, we, born again, have received abundantly of his Holy Spirit, so that relying on good works, with him helping us in all things, we might be able thus to lay hold of the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven.” (Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Titus 3:7)
GRACE, faith + works
Catholic Church 2008 exactly the same
etc, etc,
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justasking4
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See my previous post for the differences
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rikkk1958
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OS I have great respect on your intellect and I believe you have all the reasons to protect your reasoning because after all your reasons are all correct. As faithful catholic I have my reason to believe in following the Church Christ built because as you said we must build our faith through scriptures. Jesus Christ was clear enough for me to follow what Church I should be for He also said “let it be done what is righteous”. If any errors the men of the Church committed it is because they are merely men, but my Church is Divine in institution. I will follow the tradition of my Church because Jesus asked His first Vicar on earth to build His Church. It is true that the doctrines of the Church were made in accordance to the Scriptures but I believe also that the Church grows, and that’s why we have to be in unity with our bishops in conjunctions to the life of the Church which is alive. Protestants may find solace with the Scriptures alone but based on reality they are not in unity because of their different interpretatons of the Scriptures. The tradition of the Catholic Church is more than interpretations, because aside from our obedience to the Scriptures we found joy and happiness in unity with our traditions.
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MrS
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Wow… talk about beating a dead horse. Sure glad I learned that conversion is in God’s hands alone.
So, ja4 and OS et al… you have been shown the reasonableness of the Catholic position, and quite frankly the unreasonableness of your protest positions. That is really all a Catholic can do.
The rest is up to God. I just pray that you will ask for the grace to be led to the Truth… where ever that may lead you.
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Church_Militant
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that leaders can be married.
I Timothy 3:4-7 is a case in point. I can be consistent with the scriptures on this.
i don’t see how a catholic can be consistent with the scriptures on this since I Timothy 3:4-7 is clear about the qualifications for leadership. Jesus nor any of His disciples ever made celibacy a requirement for leadership.
The church of the NT is not the same as the catholic church. The church of the NT did have married leadership, did not believe in the marian doctrines nor praying to saints. These are just some of the differences. Would you not agree?There’s your whole problem, Ja4… you believe an unscriptural doctrine and then base subsequent errors in doctrine upon that and think they too are valid.
The facts of history prove that the Catholic Church did not have a married leadership, and especially so as the church grew. The Marian beliefs that you speak of developed based upon tradition handed down from the apostles, and the intercession of saints was also believed by the early church, and is indeed taught in scripture.
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