Why do so many dislike modern music in Mass?

[OraLabora]

I think if we were to somehow see stats for what hymns / chants are used at liturgies across the USA, I think you might be surprised at how little chant there is. Ditto for polyphony.

I don’t argue with that. But unless people step up to the plate, it’s unlikely to change. It’s why a group of men in my area started a schola back in 1997. I joined in 2002. We’ve learned some lessons in the 25 years we’ve been “in business” (we only charge a small stipend for funerals). One, start simple and master that first before moving on. Two, get expert help if you can; for us it was the choirmaster of the local Benedictines that was our first choirmaster for many years until we could fly solo. Three, practice, practice, practice. Four, don’t overdo it. People will tire of chant very quickly. We rotate around parishes every month. We are thus seen as a special treat. We found, with time, that we had some demand and were asked to sing at recitals (not ideal but exposes chant to folks who would never set foot in a church), funerals, parish anniversaries, commemorations at cemeteries, etc. We even had some groupies that would always somehow manage to go to Mass at the parish we were chanting at any given month.

A big bonus from this, is that I also mastered Gregorian psalmody and use Gregorian chant almost daily for the LOTH unless I travel or have a cold affecting the voice. In fact I just finished chanting mid-day prayer before I write this. I keep silent on Mondays, my “desert day” where I only silently recite the Office.

If you get to the level of mastering Gregorian chant for the LOTH, you’ll never have to do without again!

As I like to say, the Vatican doesn’t have a fleet of C130s filled with Gregorian paratroopers ready to drop down in every parish every Sunday. If people want Gregorian chant in their parishes, especially the Propers, then it will take the 3 Ps: Practice, Patience and Perseverance. We’ve reached the point of no longer needing organ accompaniment. We’ve been singing a cappella for the past 10+ years.

Alas, the pandemic put a stop to our activities for 2020 (most of us are, umm, well on in years; at 62 I’m among the younger regular members).

 

[27lw]

Y’all know how this works, right?

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[Fauken]

Shouldn’t the bottom say “Laity” instead of just “Catholics”?

 

[Wendy1989]

YES! YES! YES!

We have a culture that is too concerned about ‘rock star’ status than the craft of classical music. I do say craft because it’s not easy to erase the bubblegum rock vocals that most kids do. I challenged one of our young, volunteer cantors to stop singing in his throat and to support his tone and to learn to round his vowels. Most people don’t know how much work it takes to learn to sing classically and that it is actually physically draining. Also, learning chant involves something that our modern society has a problem with: listening to your neighbor!

 

[27lw]

Shouldn’t the bottom say “Laity” instead of just “Catholics”?

I think you are right. I stole it from here:

Church Hierarchy | St. David's Priory

 

[Peeps]

As I like to respond to you, I guess “pride of place” means “hardly ever”, or even “never”.
I think if we were to somehow see stats for what hymns / chants are used at liturgies across the USA, I think you might be surprised at how little chant there is. Ditto for polyphony.

And why do you suppose that is?

Do you really think that there is a schola asking Father if they can please chant at Mass, and Father is telling them, “No, I’d rather have hymns that came out in the 70s.”

Of do you really think that there is a pipe organist who can play Bach and Buxtehude, and he/she is asking Father, “May I play at Mass, please? I will be happy to donate my fee to the parish,” and Father is saying, “No, I want guitars and drums.”

I’ve posted several times now, and I’ll just come out and say it–musicians who are comfortable with Gregorian chant or any kind of chant (other than a simple chant) are not readily available.

There are musicians who are very proficient in chant–but many of them will NOT enter a Catholic church because they perceive the Church as hostile to practicing homosexuals–and frankly, I’m rather glad, because I don’t think the Church should pay practicing homosexuals to do the Mass music, including Gregorian chant, other chant, polyphony, and pipe organ. Maybe you disagree?

But when it is all said and done, the reason you don’t hear more chant and polyphony and pipe organ is because very few people can DO this kind of music, let alone teach others how to do it.

If you want it, you have to take the lead here and search for competent chanters/organists who are “hiding their lights under a bushel,” or…learn how to do it yourself.

Ragging on about the Mass music in your parish accomplishes nothing but to make the musicians who volunteer to do it feel bad, and makes you unhappy and discontented with your parish.

 

[Peeps]

As I like to say, the Vatican doesn’t have a fleet of C130s filled with Gregorian paratroopers ready to drop down in every parish every Sunday

What a wonderful way to express what I keep saying! Thanks!

Sad, but true.

And as I mentioned in another thread, there are musicians who are capable, but because of the influence of homosexuality in the arts, many of these musicians stand in solidarity with their gay and lesbian arts co-professionals and refuse to be part of a Catholic parish, even if they are paid.

I know qutie a few wonderful musicians who are NOT gay who have left the Catholic Church because they will not accept Catholic teaching on homosexuality/gay marriage, and also on abortion. It’s very frustrating. I walk a tightrope trying to maintain friendships with these fellow musicians while at the same time, not compromising my support of my beloved Catholic Church.

Our Mass musicians will have to come from faithful Catholic schools and colleges/universities–but many of these musicians have a hard time playing/singing in a Catholic Church because often, they are blacklisted in their communities by the liberal music community. Blacklisted means–can’t get gigs, which means, No money.

It’s not as easy as the chant lovers think. OraLabora, your story is encouraging, but the timelines should be pointed out–this isn’t the kind of thing that happens a month from now. Bringing chant/polyphony/pipe organ, etc. into a parish takes many months/years.

Sigh.

 

[27lw]

I will tell a story where I can disguise the protagonists.
A small rural parish that I occasionally attend had a volunteer lady playing organ for many years. Undoubtedly decades. At a certain point, she said, “okay, someone else’s turn”.
I wondered what would happen. Since I only occasionally attend there, I didn’t know for a while. I showed up, and lo and behold, they had a trained organist playing better than the other lady had, and who also was chanting the sequence for the day, and was doing everything very competently.
I chatted with him a bit, and he teaches at the local Catholic high school (non-music subject).
I suppose it illustrated your point, he had taken music lessons through his youth, and yet - there he was! Ready to take his place when needed.

Here’s a list of American universities / colleges that have programs in organ performance.
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Baccalaureate​

Andrews University
Augusta University
Ave Maria University
Arizona State University
Appalachian State University
Azusa Pacific University
Baldwin Wallace University
Ball State University
Baylor University
Benedictine College
Bethany College
Binghamton University, SUNY
Biola University
Boston University
Brigham Young University
Brigham Young University-Idaho
Brown University
California State University, Northridge
Catholic University of America
Central Michigan University
Cleveland Institute of Music

And more!

Academic Degree Programs - American Guild of Organists

 

[Peeps]

Here’s a list of American universities / colleges that have programs in organ performance.

Are you a member of AGO?

Have you seen the depressing stats showing a consistent decrease in organ majors over the last 20 years or so?

It’s in the magazine, and probably on the website (which I don’t generally visit, since I prefer the magazine.).

 

[27lw]

27lw:

Here’s a list of American universities / colleges that have programs in organ performance.

Are you a member of AGO?

Have you seen the depressing stats showing a consistent decrease in organ majors over the last 20 years or so?

It’s in the magazine, and probably on the website (which I don’t generally visit, since I prefer the magazine.).

Hmmm - - a decrease in organ majors?
If only there were employers who would employ them…hmmmm…

 

[Peeps]

Hmmm - - a decrease in organ majors?
If only there were employers who would employ them…hmmmm…

Um…do you not believe me when I tell you how many of these organ majors are gay?

I would estimate that at least 3/4 of the men in the chapter that I belong to are practicing gay men (married, living with a partner, dating). And I would state with certainty that aroud 95% of the members of my chapter are in full solidarity with these gay men, fully supporting their right to “love whoever they wish” and opposed to churches and fellowships that teach that homosexuality is a sin.

I’m sorry about this. I wish I were exaggerating, but I’m not. i have a daughter who is in the entertainment industry–at one point, when she was telling us about her many friends and acquaintances, my husband asked her, “Do you know ANY man who isn’t gay?” And she thought and said, “Actually, no…I don’t. Every man I know in this business is gay.”

What’s Holy Mother Church to do? It is to be hoped that those Catholics who have the cross of SSA would conform to the teachings of the Church. Some do, and those are our organists–but they face ostracization and blacklisting by their fellow musicians. That’s really hard and very lonely. And if their Catholic parish finds out that they are gay, they can say goodbye to teaching private lessons or in some parishes, teaching in the parish school. It’s awfully hard to live without an income.

I honestly think that this is one reason why we don’t see more really really GOOD musicians in most Catholic parishes. So very very sad. I’m truly sorry about this.

It’s up to the parents of the up-and-coming generation. But…how many parents are thrilled when their high school junior tells them, “I think I would like to major in music in college and become a church musician.” Ai yi yi!! The kid will be living with us forever! STEM, STEM! Get your engineering degree and do music on the side!

We’ve been through it–our daughter majored in theater! We were worried, but because of the way she was raised, she worked hard to make contacts and find work, and she has never moved back in with us for more than a few days between gigs.

 

[ReaderT]

Goodness - I’m sorry to hear about those dreams and the terrible experience at the other church. I definitely think Haugen’s songs have value and use, but I agree with @27lw that certain things are better for liturgy, deeper, more loving, more beautiful, etc. I also don’t think “ALL hymns are given to people here on earth by God” (there are some really terrible - even heretical - hymns! )

 

[CollegeCatholic24]

Final Thoughts: Thanks to all those who provided some good and helpful information! While I understand the Church’s beautiful traditions, I still don’t greatly understand chanting in Latin without actually knowing what we are saying (I wish Latin was used and understood more for this exact reason).

 

[27lw]

Hi College Catholic,
I don’t know how familiar you are with the idea of a liturgical language? Even the Jews of Jesus’ time used a sacred language that was different from everyday speech, on purpose.

https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Jesus_Hebrew/jesus_hebrew.html

The Sacrifice of the Cross and the Language of the Liturgy | liturgy guy

 

[MadeAnew]

I love attending Catholic mass because from the moment I walk into the church it feels holy. Everything that encompasses a mass draws me so close to God. Modern day music does not have a place in a Catholic mass. The chants the Church chooses all have a purpose in the mass. Every small point in mass has a meaning behind it which becomes so beautiful when you begin to study the why behind it. Mass is about Christ, not about us and we need to reflect that.

 

[27lw]

At the risk of being annoying can I also throw another aspect of this into the discussion?
With “modern music” / p&w, I think sometimes there is an element of emotional manipulation that might not belong at Catholic liturgy. Big discussion here:

Praise and Worship Music Liturgy and Sacraments

I looked at some threads that are already in existance and couldn’t really find what I was looking for so here I am starting my own lol. I understand that praise and worship music doesn’t really have a place in Mass but I was just curious as to why some people think that getting emotional over praise and worship music is bad? I read some threads and got the feeling that a lot of people think that getting emotional while listening to p&w was kinda not-catholic? i dont know if that makes much sen…

 

[OraLabora]

With “modern music” / p&w, I think sometimes there is an element of emotional manipulation that might not belong at Catholic liturgy. Big discussion here:

That’s an important point. Gregorian chant is designed to have the Word of God establish the emotion, based on the scripture verse and the message it is trying to convey. Not the composer’s nor the chorister’s emotions should prevail. As a Gregorian chorister, we strive to interpret chant with that very much in mind, whether the verse is supplication, praise, meditative, mysterious, sad, adoration, etc.

At our abbey, like all monasteries adhering to the Rule of St. Benedict, at every meal there is a reading or readings. Some are spiritual, some historical, some on current affairs, all edifying. They are chanted recto-tono. As it was explained to me, this is to avoid the lector colouring the text with what he wants to emphasize. It is left to the individual listener to interpret the text being read.

In my “ideal liturgy”, these are fundamental concepts. I have too little experience of modern music to know how much emotional manipulation is involved. Most of what I hear in French here is bad and un-singable. So the emotion I get out of it is either sadness, or anger…

 

[tafan2]

I would add that many of the “modern hymns” of the 70s were written in the folk music genre. Now, there can be some good folk music, but much of it was not very good at all and in the secular world it did not really stand the test of time (Irish and Scottish folk music would be the exception). But we still hear it as the predominant type of music in many “guitar masses”. People in their 60s and 70s often think its great for young people, as that is what they listened to when they were young. But not anymore. The youth don’t relate to it much at all. Some of them have only been exposed to that as liturgical music, so they don’t think of it as negative. Others really don’t like it at all, my kids and their friends make fun of it.

It just hasn’t stood up to the test of time.

 

[Peeps]

It just hasn’t stood up to the test of time.

So…do you see Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony, and pipe organ becoming the dominant form of music in the Mass in the next few years?

You do realize that the “folk music” used in Mass, written in the 1970s, is now 50 years old–yes, I know that 50 years is a drop-in-the-bucket compared to the lifespan of chant and polyphony.

But somehow, the music that just “hasn’t stood up to the test of time” is STILL THERE, still hangin’ out! Even though it hasn’t “stood up”, it hasn’t fallen over yet, and very few parishes have been successful in sweeping it out the door and bringing back the chant and polyphony, in spite of all the murmurings against 70’s folk hymns.

Nothing has come along to replace it–the really good CCM that some of the Catholic composers have written is simply not acceptable by many Catholics in a Mass setting, and that’s fine–I tend to think it’s more appropriate in a concert setting of people seeking to build up their faith and renew their commitment to Jesus and His Church.

So…what’s in the pipeline, and who is working to replace that 70’s folk/rock?

It seems to me that the Catholic Church in the U.S., along with most of the Protestant churches, is hemorrhaging committed members. Church attendance and/or commitment to a church in the U.S. is really really low, and COVID hasn’t helped matters much.

It’s hard for me to to believe that there are enough people left that are willing to learn chant and polyphony and help bring it back to the Mass.

I’m an advanced and experienced pianist, and it took me over a year of organ lessons and practice before I felt ready to try even a simple organ piece at Mass, and to this day (I started lessons in 2011), I am still nervous whenever I play organ at a Mass.

I think if we all spent as much time learning about chant and how to do it and practicing it as we do opining about Mass music–we would see chant Masses at a large number of Catholic parishes within a few months! I honestly don’t think that’s likely, but I don’t really see another route to establishing chant in the Mass in the U.S.–it’s all about practice, practice, practice.

 

[DaveBj]

I would add that many of the “modern hymns” of the 70s were written in the folk music genre.

That was exactly when I had my introduction to the so-called “folk Mass,” when I was dating my wife (1969) and after we were married (April 1970). I myself was a folkie at the time, and my impression of Catholic “folk Mass music” was that it was bad folk music, and perhaps just bad music. I’m not all that happy with the current music at our parish (a mix of older hymns and more modern stuff from Haas et al., accompanied by a pipe organ. I grew up Pentecostal, singing Southern Gospel music (think Gaither videos), and I still love that genre, but I am also a classically trained musician, and if there were a schola, I would be a ready member.

D