Why do so many dislike modern music in Mass?

[Peeps]

if there were a schola, I would be a ready member.

"“If there were a schola…”

You’re a classically trained musician. Start one!

Someone’s gotta do it–why not you?

I’ll bet a lot of you are wondering if I have any friends at all! Yes, I do have a tendency to cut to the chase.

 

[Jbrady]

I think if we all spent as much time learning about chant and how to do it and practicing it as we do opining about Mass music–we would see chant Masses at a large number of Catholic parishes within a few months!

Reminds me of something an old boss of mine used to say: “If you spent half the time working that you do complaining, you’d have nothing to complain about!”

 

[PeterT]

When people say that music should not be “human-centered,” I have a little problem with this–music can and SHOULD move hearts and challenge people to make a new and more serious commitment to the Lord Jesus and His Church. So yes, that means that music is appealing to the “people” rather than praising God. But…it’s not the MUSIC–it’s the Holy Spirit Who is using beautiful or lively or touching music/lyrics to reach and soften a hard heart and woo the listener into yielding their stubborn will to God.

…

I believe that God enjoys our musical praise when it is done with sincerity and humility, but also with joy and delight in the Lord, no matter WHAT the “style” of the music is or how technically brilliant the musicians are. An elderly lady volunteer cantor who sings the responses off-key and softly is just as pleasing to God as a well-trained schola that delivers a perfectly-pitched and sublimely-lovely chant.

You sentiment about the elderly lady volunteer cantor is true. She is as pleasing to God as the well-trained schola. But if one of the goals of the music at Mass is to move hearts and challenge people to make a new and more serious commitment to our Lord — in all honesty — it’s far better to have the well-trained schola leading the congregation in song.

Our Holy Father, Pope Francis had brought up this concerns during one of his Wednesday audiences a few years back: that the Mass is too important to have less than the best trained ministers (be it a lector or a cantor or an EMHC) participating in the liturgy. I’m remember that some people were taken aback when Pope Francis made these comments, but he is correct. If the Mass is as important as Church tells us it is, we (each parish community) should be doing the best we can in trying to have the most talented singers, musicians and lectors we can find in being the ministers of the Mass.

Now if the best the parish has is an elderly lady cantor who sings the responses off-key, so be it. I’m sure God is fine with that and is very appreciative of her effort. But if the parish has someone younger that is a better singer, that younger person should be one leading the congregation in song during the Mass.

 

[Peeps]

it’s far better to have the well-trained schola leading the congregation in song.

And where do these well-trained scholas come from?

Are YOU in a well-trained schola (or even in a schola that is working towards becoming well-trained)?

But if the parish has someone younger that is a better singer, that younger person should be one leading the congregation in song during the Mass.

Sure. Do you know young people, and are they stepping up? We have some wonderful, faith-filled young people in our parish–beautiful singers and players (piano). But we have a lot more older people who are willing to cantor and play.

And NO ONE other than the music director is really proficient at chanting–people try to chant whenever we are directed (by the music director) to do the Latin responses, but … it’s not exactly sublime or even close. Good thing I love cats. And I love the people attempting to chant, so I’m not likely to critique them–this isn’t a show, after all.

Like I said, are YOU in a schola?

 

[DaveBj]

"“If there were a schola…”

You’re a classically trained musician. Start one!

I’m a classically trained musician, but not in chant notation. I can follow it pretty well, if I’m in a group, but I couldn’t begin to teach other people how to read it.

Besides, I know the people in my parish. If I tried to start a schola, there would be a trio – me, myself, and I

D

 

[MikeInVA]

I grew up with the St. Louis Jesuits music, and went to the Mass with what I called the Beach Boys choir. As my faith has deepened I found that I prefer the more traditional songs more (although “Though the Mountains May Fall” is on my favorites list).

 

[Peeps]

I’m a classically trained musician, but not in chant notation. I can follow it pretty well, if I’m in a group, but I couldn’t begin to teach other people how to read it.

Besides, I know the people in my parish. If I tried to start a schola, there would be a trio – me, myself, and I

D

OK.

But do you get what I’m saying. There seems to be a belief on CAF that if the “music liberals” would just be stripped of their power and the Gather hymnal and its brother liberal hymnals would be hidden away in the church basement and the guitarist, pianists, and drummers would be told to “Hit the road, Jack!”…

… then, the “chanters” would come out of hiding and start chanting the Mass again, and the old hymnals with the deeper words would be dusted off and stuffed into the pews, and the organists would step up and start playing Bach and if there is no pipe organ, the rich people in the church would buy one,…

…and all would be beautiful and truly “Catholic” again at the parish.

And Peeps keeps hammering on these forums that there ARE few-to-none chanters and that those capable of teaching chant are even rarer (or openly and proudly gay and not willing to work in a Catholic parish), and that organists are hard to find, and if they are there, they have to be paid a true living wage, not just $75/Sunday for playing a half-dozen Masses and planning out all the music and conducting a choir (of course, there are huge classically-trained choirs that have also been silenced by the “Liberal Musicians” in the parish).

If people want chant and other “sacred” music in the Mass, as well as pipe organ–they have to DIT. (Do it Themselves). It’s not just in hiding waiting to be released from the "“Haugen and Haas Jail.”

 

[OddBird]

I’m an organist, I love good church music, and I love doing my best to perform it well - I have been to some absolutely glorious Masses with wonderful music, and I do wish they were a more common occurrence.

And yet… I also find that weekday Masses here, reverent, slow, with no other music than a single soloist chanting a brief Gregorian setting, have a particular quality.

I think both have their place, and both have their own way of bringing us closer to God.

the problem is that it is often too syncopated and thus, impossible to sing well. Which goes very much against Sacrosanctum Concilium’s desire for full lay participation!

Amen to that. Particularly if you’re asked to accompany them on a pipe organ whose pneumatic transmission is sluggish. There used to be an organ here which had such a slow transmission that we joked that one had to play the hymns on Saturday evening for the congregation to hear them on Sunday morning. It didn’t agree with syncopated hymns.

 

[27lw]

You know how well priests and music directors would take it if we were to say “Oh Father, you’re doing the music all wrong! Why aren’t you following the directions of the Vatican II documents?”
That’s why it needs to come from above, like Archbishop Sample.

Archbishop Sample’s Letter On Sacred Music (1 of 8)

 

[PeterT]

PeterT:

it’s far better to have the well-trained schola leading the congregation in song.

And where do these well-trained scholas come from?

Are YOU in a well-trained schola (or even in a schola that is working towards becoming well-trained)?

But if the parish has someone younger that is a better singer, that younger person should be one leading the congregation in song during the Mass.

Sure. Do you know young people, and are they stepping up? We have some wonderful, faith-filled young people in our parish–beautiful singers and players (piano). But we have a lot more older people who are willing to cantor and play.

And NO ONE other than the music director is really proficient at chanting–people try to chant whenever we are directed (by the music director) to do the Latin responses, but … it’s not exactly sublime or even close. Good thing I love cats. And I love the people attempting to chant, so I’m not likely to critique them–this isn’t a show, after all.

Like I said, are YOU in a schola?

For the record, I’m not in favor replacing most hymns (both contemporary and traditional) with chants for all the reasons stated by you and others on this thread. It’s nice in theory but not really doable in the real world.

My main point on my post on this thread is that it’s important to find the best singers available (they don’t have to be in a schola) to lead the congregation in song than to default to someone who has been doing it for years but now due to their age are no longer as good as they once were.

We actually had this happen in my parish. A beloved member of our parish was the longtime pianist and choir leader for our Saturday evening vigil Mass. She was well trained and excellent when she was younger, but now she in her 70s and still leading the singing at the Mass (including singing the psalms and solos). But now — due to her age — her voice was weak and wavering. Yet still she lead the vigil Mass choir (that also included three other elderly parishioners).

The last few years saw a noticeable drop in attendance for that Mass. We had assumed that more people weren’t interested in attending a Saturday evening Vigil Mass anymore.

Finally she retired and we found a younger (in his twenties) pianist and organist to lead that singing for that Mass. And guess what happened to the surprise of many of us? The attendance at that Saturday vigil Mass started to increase again and ended up in doubling in size versus what it had been during the last years of the previous pianist’s leadership.

My point being: parishioners like to attend a Mass where the songs are sung well (regardless of what type of song is being sang).

 

[Peeps]

My point being: parishioners like to attend a Mass where the songs are sung well (regardless of what type of song is being sang).

I totally agree with you. I believe that everything we do for the Lord and His Church should be done with all our heart! Wimpiness, taking the “easy way”, apathy, unwillingness to try our best–this isn’t the way Christians should be!

I know this sounds like bragging, but honestly, I don’t mean for it to be braggadocious–. people in my parish often tell me, “I wish you played all the time.” And several people have asked my why I don’t apply to be the music and liturgy director.

The answer is that I am married, and my husband and I have significant debts to pay before we can retire, and the job that I have now (medical technologist/microbiology dept) pays really good money and it would be irresponsible of me to quit and take a job that pays about a quarter of what I am currently paid and leave my husband stuck with all the debts.

Also–just because I play piano and organ well doesn’t mean that I can manage music and liturgy, conduct choirs, plan festival days, etc. I was raised Evangelical Protestant and converted when I was middle-aged, and although I have studied the doctrines and teachings of the Catholic Church, I have not attended any seminary or every had any high-level religion classes–a music/liturgy director needs to have a really good knowledge of all these, plus a deep understanding of the rubrics of the Mass, the liturgical calendar (which didn’t exist in Protestant Land!), music history (specifcally sacred music history), etc.

I am always happy to help out using the God-given gifts that I have developed over the decades–playing piano and organ for choirs, soloists, cantors, and above all else, the congregation. I love playing and accompanying and I love practicing–but to be “in charge” of it just isn’t my calling at all.

If I were asked to partipcate in a chant choir in our parish, I would probably try it out–I love to sing, too, even though I don’t have a “solo” voice. But I’m a good reader and can stay on pitch, and I’ve heard from my organ teacher that neumes are actually easier to read than music notes. I think it would be interesting if the instructor/teacher was knowledgeable and capable of training people. The big problem I have with any church choir is that I work weekends, so my ability to be in the choir on Sundays is spotty. However, if there were plenty of others, I would be happy to help whenever I could be there.

However, whenever I have joined a choir, I almost always get drafted to accompany, and although chant is unaccompanied, there is often someone playing a piano or organ to keep people on pitch, and chances are good I would volunteer and then I would probably continue to play (rehearsals) rather than sing. Oh, well–like I said, I love to play!

 

[Irishmom2]

@Paddy1989, sure why you would say that considering I have been on this forum since 2009 and participated in many threads.

 

[sainteriksrose]

After hearing that simple “modern” music over and over and over

It was like stuff for kindergarteners, and we were the CCD crowd. Too, I think it was aimed at trying to attract Protestants whose only accepted Latin phrase within their practices (our practices are called, “traditions”), is sola scriptura:; not sure their doctrine of “faith alone” is taught in Latin, though; Luther might not have mentiioned that in the Protestant catechism he took upon himself to write after he left the Church which I wouldn’t know because I don’t even have the CCC memorized. And if I was going to memorize a catechism, it would be the one from the Church Jesus founded and AUTHORIZED HIMSELF to speak on His behalf, and not some other religion’s because the tenets of their churches might not be in line with His.

There’s a place for everything within His Church, and most parishes try to accommodate different tastes and language preferences. Different does not mean better, or bad. Variety is as long as it honors God FIRST, because HE is the Creator of all!

 

[DaveBj]

If people want chant and other “sacred” music in the Mass, as well as pipe organ–they have to DIT. (Do it Themselves). It’s not just in hiding waiting to be released from the "“Haugen and Haas Jail.”

I quite agree. However, finding someone in our parish to DIT would be hard. Most of the folks are faithful sheep who will baa along with whatever is on the hymn board, if they know the tune (hymnals and missalettes have been withdrawn). As for my taking the lead, I’ve already explained why that can’t happen, and I will add the fact that I have distractions, the heaviest being that I am constantly dealing with a disabled spouse.

D

 

[Paddy1989]

@Paddy1989, sure why you would say that considering I have been on this forum since 2009 and participated in many threads.

I meant it as a joke based on a number of recent posts involving popcorn but withdrew it as I felt it may be interpreted as rude if you didn’t get it, sorry lol

 

[OddBird]

Protestants whose only accepted Latin phrase within their practices (our practices are called, “traditions”), is sola scriptura

There are five Solae actually, and all of them are latin: Sola Scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, Solus Christus, soli Deo gloria

I think it was aimed at trying to attract Protestants

It depends on what kind of Protestants. I’m quite serious when I say that what slowed down my way toward Rome for a long, long time was the hymns – I didn’t want to give up my 16th-century psalms and Gregorian-inspired hymns for Jo Akepsimas (one of the “big names” of recent French Catholic hymnography, whose hymns I deeply dislike).

 

[OraLabora]

I think it was aimed at trying to attract Protestants whose only accepted Latin phrase within their practices (our practices are called, “traditions”), is sola scriptura:;

Not entirely true! I know of a very High Church Anglican parish in Montreal that uses Gregorian chant!

 

[OddBird]

I know of a very High Church Anglican parish in Montreal that uses Gregorian chant!

I even know of a community of families with Mennonite roots whose common prayer times use Gregorian chant. They were taught by Benedictines and take chant very seriously.

 

[OraLabora]

Are you from the Netherlands by any chance? I know a reformed lady pastor from the Netherlands who is also a Benedictine Oblate. We served together on a committee in Rome. Lovely lady!

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Modern music at Mass, especially songs played by guitar sound like that genre “indie music” and I dont like that genre. I stole this from The Simpsons, but you almost can literally just replace the lyric “God” with the word “Baby” in a lot of these contemporary songs and it will sound like a cheesy love song. I do not see how anyone can prefer it to the old beautiful hymns.

However I acknowledge that is only my opinion. And piano is 100x better then guitar imho. If I had my way guitar masses would be banned. So, it’s a good thing for many that I dont get my way lol