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ACCT
Guest
When government programs fail, they grow bigger. When business fail, they grow smaller.
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sedonaman
Guest
I don’t know how many times I’ve seen the statement go unchallenged that “Government has a role to play [as a participant].”
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sedonaman
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It’s up to you to do the research to back up your statement, not me.I can refer you to Google.
ATB
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Mickey_Finn
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Friedman again.
Actually, there are so few examples of voucher systems in our country. That the data to support them does not exist. So, you can except the findings of the North Carolina study. Or base your beliefs on the writings of Milton- “capitalism is chaos”-Friedman. Or, you can look abroad for some answers. I’d suggest New Zealand for starters.ATB
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Mickey_Finn
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Not so. I’m satisfied with my post. If you have doubts. You can feel free to duplicate my research and see if you come up with different results.
Thats the way of the world.
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Mickey_Finn
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You do not get it. Have you ever taken a college economics class?
No, thats why my thoughts are so clear.
ATB
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sedonaman
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I consider it false until you prove it is true. That’s the way of the world.Not so. I’m satisfied with my post. If you have doubts. You can feel free to duplicate my research and see if you come up with different results.
Thats the way of the world.
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ACCT
Guest
It sounds like you just make up things as you go. Research on school vouchers, especially research at the Chicago School of Economics, has been going on for over 50 years. Here are just some some of the research that you claim does not exist:Friedman again.
ATB
Moms and Schools Survey
Paul DiPerna 5/9/2012
Louisiana K-12 & School Choice Survey
Paul DiPerna 3/19/2012
Washington K-12 and School Choice Survey
Paul DiPerna 3/13/2012
Lessons for Louisiana from Florida’s K-12 Education Revolution
Matthew Ladner 3/8/2012
The Fiscal Effects of School Choice Programs on Public School Districts
Benjamin Scafidi 2/29/2012
Idaho K-12 & School Choice Survey
Paul DiPerna 1/5/2012
Expanding Choice: Tax Credits and Educational Access in Idaho
Dick M. Carpenter II 12/15/2011
New Mexico K-12 & School Choice Survey
Paul DiPerna 12/8/2011
Lessons for Minnesota from Florida’s K-12 Reforms Giving the Most to the Children Starting with the Least
Matthew Ladner 11/30/2011
Alaska K-12 & School Choice Survey
Paul DiPerna 10/27/2011
Lessons for Ohio from Florida’s K-12 Education Revolution
Matthew Ladner 10/26/2011
The Fiscal Impact of Tax-Credit Scholarships in Oklahoma
Brian J. Gottlob 6/15/2011
A Win-Win Solution: The Empirical Evidence on School Vouchers
Greg Forster, Ph.D. 3/23/2011
Lessons for Tennessee from Florida’s Education Revolution
Matthew Ladner 2/9/2011
Indiana K-12 & School Choice Survey
Paul DiPerna 1/10/2011
School Passports: Making the Stimulus Pay Off for Students and State Budgets
Brian J. Gottlob 12/20/2010
Interstate Survey: What Do Voters Say About K-12 Education in Six States?
Paul DiPerna 11/29/2010
Trouble Brewing: The Disaster of California State Pensions
Stuart Buck 10/6/2010
Montana’s High School Dropouts - Examining the Fiscal Consequences
David Stuit, Jeffrey A. Springer 9/16/2010
California’s High School Dropouts - Examining the Fiscal Consequences
David Stuit, Jeffrey A. Springer 9/15/2010
Tennessee’s High School Dropouts - Examining the Fiscal Consequences
Christian D´Andrea, M.P.P. 8/31/2010
Reforms With Results: What Oklahoma can learn from Florida’s K-12 education revolution
Matthew Ladner 7/21/2010
Tax-Credit Scholarships in Nebraska - Forecasting the Fiscal Impact
Brian J. Gottlob 6/30/2010
Tax-credit Scholarships in Maryland: Forecasting the Fiscal Impact
Brian J. Gottlob 5/17/2010
Ohio teacher contracts: The black hole of school spending
Education Action Group 4/27/2010
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Swiss_Guy
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Come on, a ponzi scheme? And socialist? Social security is a social insurance program thats job is to keep people out of poverty. It isn’t a retirement investment program. The usccb has always supported social security and catholics have had major impacts on social security programs in countries like germany. Not to mention that the catechism says its unjust not to pay social security contributions. Why would the catechism be telling people it is unjust to support a ponzi scheme?
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ACCT
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Everything that you said is false. This is a letter that I wrote to a priest:
I attended mass this morning. I looked up the “Option for the Poor,” as you suggested. The bishops support the minimum wage and many other government programs. The U.S. Catholic bishops and I have major philosophical differences! The minimum wage is bad economics. If you want to help the poor, you do not support the minimum wage. As you will tell from my letter, I do not believe in “salvation by law.” I learned a lot by owning a business and traveling to India on business trips.
I was willing to hire the young and unskilled, but it was illegal to pay them what they were worth in the marketplace. The government makes it illegal to pay wages below the minimum wage. The minimum wage is a floor on wages that causes a surplus of young and unskilled workers. ****There is 50 years of solid economic research **to support this contention. Are the bishops listening? The minimum wage that is above the equilibrium wage hurts the young and unskilled.
**
Unfortunately, most people do not know their directions when it comes to government promises. The end does not justify the means. The “means” is the end. Tell me the means and I will tell you the ending. Such is the beauty of economics. I am not interested in the government’s lofty objectives; I am only interested in the means they use to get there. If you want to help poor workers, abolish the minimum wage. If you want to protect citizens from violent crime, abolish the gun control laws. If you want to increase wealth and employment, abolish taxes.
“An individual who intends only to serve the public interest by fostering government intervention is led by an invisible hand to promote private interest, which was no part of his intention (Friedman).” The “invisible hand” is the reason Milton Friedman says that he is not aware of the government doing much good. The government heads west when it should be heading east.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone always pays for “free lunches.” Economics is interesting because economics reads like a detective novel. “Who done it?” Who benefits and who pays?
Adam Smith’s genius was that he recognized the value of voluntary exchanges. Voluntary exchanges produce a win-win situation. Both buyers and sellers benefit. The price that they agree upon is the market price, or the equilibrium price. Adam Smith said that a seller, seeking only his interests, and through no conscious effort, is led by an invisible hand to seek the public good.
There was a time when the United States was the only game in town. If you wanted freedom, you had to come to the United States. However, the United States is no longer the only game in town.
India, for example, learned some very bad socialist ideas from England and the United States. They had a marginal tax rate of 85% and excise taxes of 100%. Is it any wonder that they never exported any jewelry? Today India is a major exporter of jewelry. I visited some of those factories, and they are more modern that our jewelry factories in the United States! Why? The Indians call it an “economic miracle.” I call it no taxes. There are no corporate taxes on exported jewelry!
Here are my lecture notes from Dr. Andrew Forshee, a Catholic and economics professor: “**Authority or command is not the fundamental source of order in an economy, and it in fact may be a source of disorder in economic affairs. **In the place usually accorded authority as the source of orderliness in a community, **we will place enlightened self-interest, i.e. the freedom to act in accordance with one’s own interests properly bounded by a regard for the welfare of others **and the preservation of the institutions of civil society (note that one of those institutions is government). Without the moderating effects of a proper concern for institutions and for interests other than one’s own, social order deteriorates under the weight of appetites. Of particular interest is what Wilhelm Roepke called the “wonder” of market coordinated activity, i.e. the superiority of voluntarism over command as a means for ordering or coordinating human actions which are based on enlightened self-interest.”
“Economics has many definitions. I gave three of the best definitions. All three definitions are useful and represent particular emphases within a broader discipline. The third definition (coordination/information problem) may be understood as an information problem because at the heart of the coordination problem is the problem of dispersed information, i.e. the information is not amenable to the usual kinds of problem solving techniques with which we are most familiar. Economic order is not like solving a jigsaw puzzle because the information (the pieces of the puzzle) are dispersed across millions of people and are forever changing. This information can never be held in the mind of one or a few people. Given the problem of dispersed information, a much more complex kind of problem solving technique is required to continuously “solve” the problem, i.e. to coordinate economic activity.”
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Swiss_Guy
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Everything I said was false? Please explain what was false about my statement.
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Mickey_Finn
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Chicago School of Economics., Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice, No bias with these two.
As you see when you look at the data you’ve posted. It’s all very recent. Also, they are not really relevant to the discusion. They do however, drum up stats to prop up the “School choice” arguments.
*“School choice does not drain money from public schools, rather it allows public schools to use their money to educate students more effectively.” - Milton and Rose D. Friedman Foundation *
I would remind you that Vouchers only became federal law after the “No Child Left Behind” was passed. Something like eleven years ago.
Not a lot of time to research the results.But, take heart. If you don’t care to look abroad for answers. There should be some more data rolling in from credible sources in a decade or so.
ATB
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ACCT
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As you see when you look at the data you’ve posted. It’s all very recent. Also, they are not really relevant to the discusion. They do however, drum up stats to prop up the “School choice” arguments.Chicago School of Economics., Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice, ]No bias with these two.
*“School choice does not drain money from public schools, rather it allows public schools to use their money to educate students more effectively.” - Milton and Rose D. Friedman Foundation *
**I would remind you that Vouchers only became federal law after the “No Child Left Behind” was passed. Something like eleven years ago. **
Not a lot of time to research the results.ATB
There you go again. As you admitted, you do not research anything before you post. I got the following from Wikipedia:
History
*The oldest continuing school voucher programs existing today in the United States are the Town Tuitioning programs in Vermont and Maine, beginning in 1869[2] and 1873[3] respectively. Because some towns in these states operate neither local high schools nor elementary schools, students in these towns “are eligible for a voucher to attend [either] public schools in other towns or non-religious private schools. In these cases, the ‘sending’ towns pay tuition directly to the ‘receiving’ schools.”[2][3]
A system of educational vouchers was introduced in the Netherlands in 1917. Today, more than 70% of pupils attend privately run but publicly funded schools, mostly split along denominational lines.[4]
Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman argued for the modern concept of vouchers in the 1950s, stating that competition would improve schools and cost efficiency. The view further gained popularity with the 1980 TV broadcast of Friedman’s series** Free to Choose **for which volume 6 was devoted entirely to promoting “educational freedom” through programs like school vouchers.[5]
In some Southern states during the 1960s, school vouchers were used as a method of perpetuating segregation. In a few instances, public schools were closed outright and vouchers were issued to parents. The vouchers, in many cases, were only good at privately segregated schools, known as segregation academies.[6] Today, all modern voucher programs prohibit racial discrimination.*
The **Chicago school of economics **describes a neoclassical school of thought within the academic community of economists, with a strong focus around the faculty of The University of Chicago, some of whom have constructed and popularized its principles. It is at times referred to as freshwater school of economics, in contrast to the saltwater school based in coastal universities (notably Harvard, MIT, and Berkeley). The University of Chicago department, considered one of the world’s foremost economics departments, has fielded more Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel laureates and John Bates Clark medalists in economics than any other university.
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ACCT
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Social Security comes from the** Socialist platform of 1928**. The philosophy of socialism is failure - Winston Churchill
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The Social Security payroll tax is just another tax.** It is the worst kind of tax becausde it comes right off gross earned income without any deductions.
As your link stated, the Catholic Church does not condemn, nor does it support, Social Security. The Social Security taxes are legislated by legitimate authority. That is not an unjust law, as your link stated.
The Social Security system uses money from new investors to pay earlier investors. How is it different from a Ponzi scheme?
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ACCT
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What follows is an excerpt from Milton and Rose Friedman’s book titled Free to Choose.
The economic planks of the** socialist party platform of 1928**, along with an indication in parentheses of how these planks have fared. The list that follows includes every economic plank, but not the full language of each.
** “National ownership and democratic management of railroads and other means of transportation and communication.” (Railroad passenger service is completely nationalized through Amtrak.** Some freight service is nationalized through Conrail. Private railroads are strictly regulated by the Federal Government. The FCC controls communications by telephone, telegraph, radio, and television.)
** “A system of unemployment insurance.” (Part of Social Security system.)**
“The nation-wide extension of public employment agencies in cooperation with city federations of labor.” (U.S. Employment Service and affiliated state employment services administer a network of about 2,500 local employment offices.)
** “A system of health and accident insurance and of old age pensions as well as unemployment insurance.” (Part of Social Security. Full global health insurance proposed widely.)**
In 1928, highest personal income tax rate, 25 percent; in 2008, 35 percent, above 40 percent proposed by Obama; in 1928, corporate tax rate, 12 percent; in 2008, 35-39% percent with proposed increases by Obama; in 1928, top federal estate tax rate, 20 percent; in 2008, 48% with proposed increases by Obama.)
** “Appropriation by taxation of the annual rental value of all land held for speculation.” (Not achieved in this form, but property taxes have risen drastically.)**
The economic planks of the** socialist party platform of 1928**, along with an indication in parentheses of how these planks have fared. The list that follows includes every economic plank, but not the full language of each.
Code:
“Nationalization of our natural resources, beginning with the coal mines and water sites, particularly at Boulder Dam an Muscle Shoals.” (Boulder Dam, renamed Hoover Damn, and Muscle Shoals are now both federal government projects.)
“A publicly owned giant power system under which the federal government shall cooperate with the states and municipalities in the distribution of electrical energy to the people at cost.” (This is a generally accepted process across the country.)
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“An adequate national program for flood control, flood relief, reforestation, irrigation, and reclamation.” (Government expenditures for these purposes are currently in thee many billions of dollars.)
“Immediate governmental relief of the unemployed by the extension of all public works and a program of long range planning of public works . . .” (In the 1930s, WPA and PWA were a direct counterpart; now, a wide variety of other programs are.) “All persons thus employed to be engaged at hours and wages fixed by bona-fide labor unions.” (The Davis-Bacon and Walsh-Healey Acts require contractors with government contracts to pay “prevailing wages,” generally interpreted as highest union wages – also the national minimum wage.)
“Loans to states and municipalities without interest for the purpose of carrying on public works and the taking of such other measures as will lessen widespread misery.” (Federal grants in aid to states and local municipalities currently total tens of billions of dollars a year.)“The nation-wide extension of public employment agencies in cooperation with city federations of labor.” (U.S. Employment Service and affiliated state employment services administer a network of about 2,500 local employment offices.)
** “A system of health and accident insurance and of old age pensions as well as unemployment insurance.” (Part of Social Security. Full global health insurance proposed widely.)**
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“Shortening the workday” and “Securing every worker a rest period of no less than two days in each week.” (Legislated by wages and hours laws that require overtime for more than forty hours of work per week.)
“Enacting of an adequate federal anti-child labor amendment.” (Not achieved as amendment, but essence incorporated into various legislative acts.)
“Abolition of the brutal exploitation of convicts under the contract system and substitution of a cooperative organization of industries in penitentiaries and workshops for the benefit of convicts and their dependents.” (Partly achieved, partly not.)
**“Increase taxation on high income levels, of corporation taxes and inheritance taxes, the proceeds to be used for old age pensions and other forms of social insurance.” (**** “Appropriation by taxation of the annual rental value of all land held for speculation.” (Not achieved in this form, but property taxes have risen drastically.)**
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Mickey_Finn
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The Maine program was put in place because the school district involved did not provide higher levels of public education. The recieving school district was simply paid with vouchers. By, the district sending students. Stricktly public to public by the way. Yes, I did see that.
But again, it’s not relevant to the discusion.The southern states example, highlights my point.
But, I discounted them because of their obviously evil intent. :tsktsk:Nobel prize. Didn’t Barack Obama recieve one of those?
(sorry if that seems “below the belt”)ATB
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ACCT
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What point - that there was segregation in the south in the 1960s???The southern states example, highlights my point.
TB
The racial issue - Discrimination under a voucher plan can be prevented at least as easily as in public schools by redeeming vouchers only from schools that do not discriminate.
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Mickey_Finn
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That vouchers, and school “choice”, can lead to segregation. Yes, that was the point.
ATB
I propose a truce. I’ll admit that the wars on poverty, and drugs have not gone as well as planned. You admit that SSI does what it is supposed to do.
What say you?
I never did see an answer here.
Is it your contention that people will not choose the best school when provided a choice?
If so, what factors do you believe they are going to base the decision on?
And how exactly do you know what the decision will be?
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sedonaman
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The supporters of the public social security use fear of losing benefits as a tool to continue support for this failing system, but nothing is ever said about losing SS benefits through raising the retirement age. Like any Ponzi scheme, in order to succeed, SS requires an ever-expanding population and an ever-expanding economy, which are never case. Eventually, the expanding population requirement exceeds the population of the whole earth.
The reasons it is socialist in nature are, 1) it turns over to the society what the individual can do for himself; and, 2) benefits are needs-based. There are probably others as well.
“Nø, they can’t.”
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