Why Do So Many Hate Things Roman?

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In my haste earlier, I neglected to address the above sentence.

Anyway, this is one of those things that depends on whom you ask. Some (myself included) agree, at least for the most part: there’s no harm in maintaining “imported” devotional practices, provided they do not supplant authentically traditional ones. OTOH, there are those who insist that any such latinization must be removed, irrespective of whether or not it has “passed the test of time” and come to be accepted. Sure, authentic is best, but if something “imported” (both adopted and adapted) inspires the faithful, I see no harm in it as a complement (rather than a replacement). And then, of course, we have a third group that is as pleased as punch with the “imported” practices at all cost, even at the expense of abandoning what is authentically traditional. Needless to say, I don’t agree with that position either.
I would fall into the second group. Coming up in the Latinized Byzantine Church we were taught the rosary and it is a lifelong devotion for me. The Chotki was never mentioned:(, but then neither was the Sacred Heart devotion or Stations of the Cross.
 
Proof of what? When standing communion was introduced?

I am stating that it was my experience of standing communion received on the tongue for years before in the hand indult was given for the USA.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/bestof/bestofimages/002e communion ICI-4-1-65.jpg

Pope Paul VI, April 1, 1965, ICI
wow

I have been to that site before, but never saw that photo. And in all the CITH vs COTT threads I’ve seen, no one has ever pointed out that Pope Paul VI did this.

Thanks, but I’m now sorry I asked.
 
wow

I have been to that site before, but never saw that photo. And in all the CITH vs COTT threads I’ve seen, no one has ever pointed out that Pope Paul VI did this.

Thanks, but I’m now sorry I asked.
The sacramental discipline has change many times over the ~2000 years. The faithful used to take the Holy Eucharist home with them.

Communion by: hand, spoon, intinction, tube.

Pohle, Joseph. “The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 5. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1909.:

“Not only have the Fathers, and among them Chrysostom with special vigor, defended in theory the permanence of the Real Presence, but the constant practice of the Church has also established its truth. In the early days of the Church the faithful frequently carried the Blessed Eucharist with them to their homes (cf. Tertullian, “Ad uxor.”, II, v; Cyprian, Treatise 3.26) or upon long journeys (Ambrose, De excessu fratris, I, 43, 46), while the deacons were accustomed to take the Blessed Sacrament to those who did not attend Divine service (cf. Justin, Apol., I, n. 67), as well as to the martyrs, the incarcerated, and the infirm (cf. Eusebius, Church History VI.44). The deacons were also obliged to transfer the particles that remained to specially prepared repositories called Pastophoria (cf. Apostolic Constitutions, VIII, xiii). Furthermore, it was customary as early as the fourth century to celebrate the Mass of the Presanctifed (cf. Synod of Laodicea, can. xlix), in which were received the Sacred Hosts that had been consecrated one or more days previously.”

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
 
When did the Latin Church bring in kneeling for Communion on Sundays? The East didn’t do that as kneeling on Sundays and during the period from Easter to Pentecost was expressly forbidden by an Ecumenical Council.

Alex
 
When did the Latin Church bring in kneeling for Communion on Sundays? The East didn’t do that as kneeling on Sundays and during the period from Easter to Pentecost was expressly forbidden by an Ecumenical Council.

Alex
What was the reason it was forbidden?
 
What was the reason it was forbidden?
To my knowledge:
It was forbidden because kneeling was a sign of sorrow and penitence. This gesture was not fitting for the celebration of the Liturgy, which was the joyful celebration of Christ’s salvific work. Hence, the ban on kneeling.

I’m sure someone else will have more details and/or correct me.
 
The Liturgies of Sts Basil and St John Chrysostom both include the line, “Let us stand aright, let us stand in awe, let us be attentive, to offer the holy oblation in peace!” which is responded with “The offering of peace, the sacrifice of praise.”

It was uniformity of praxis and of symbolism. Kneeling is a sign of sorrow, not adoration, in the east.

In Rome, it was a sign of submission.
 
The Liturgies of Sts Basil and St John Chrysostom both include the line, “Let us stand aright, let us stand in awe, let us be attentive, to offer the holy oblation in peace!” which is responded with “The offering of peace, the sacrifice of praise.”

It was uniformity of praxis and of symbolism. Kneeling is a sign of sorrow, not adoration, in the east.

In Rome, it was a sign of submission.
It did strike me one Sunday to look around and see everyone dropped to their knees when the host was elevated. Not making a case one way or the other but I felt awe inspired to see the Priest holding the body of Jesus and a crowd of people dropped down in adoration.
 
It did strike me one Sunday to look around and see everyone dropped to their knees when the host was elevated. Not making a case one way or the other but I felt awe inspired to see the Priest holding the body of Jesus and a crowd of people dropped down in adoration.
But as Aramis has said, kneeling is a gesture of sorrow in the East. Why are we sorrowful that Christ has come among us? That is why in the East, Sunday is always festive, because Christ has manifested among us in the Eucharist. We should be glad and rejoice.
 
But as Aramis has said, kneeling is a gesture of sorrow in the East. Why are we sorrowful that Christ has come among us? That is why in the East, Sunday is always festive, because Christ has manifested among us in the Eucharist. We should be glad and rejoice.
I understand that. I’m not criticizing one or the other. I think both are valid expressions in their respected Liturgies.
I’m Western, and for me it’s not sorrow but awe and deep gratitude to Almighty God for His gifts.
 
But as Aramis has said, kneeling is a gesture of sorrow in the East. Why are we sorrowful that Christ has come among us? That is why in the East, **Sunday is always festive, because Christ has manifested among us in the Eucharist. **We should be glad and rejoice.
It is my understanding that every Sunday is a Pascha, the joyous triumph of Christ God overcoming death by death. During the Paschal season we do not kneel even on weekdays and Saturdays. 🙂
 
I just wanted to add my two cents in addressing the original OP. It’s not that Eastern Catholics things Roman. Many of us very much love and respect them. It’s just that we don’t think they belong in our public liturgical life. Things like the Rosary or Divine Mercy chaplet, etc. are all great and wonderful (my wife and I frequently pray the Divine Mercy chaplet together), but what many people bemoan is the replacing of our own public traditions such as Matins/Orthros or one of the Lesser Hours before the Divine Liturgy with a public Rosary. Or the replacing of the singing of the Akathist hymn during Great Lent with the Stations of the Cross. It’s not that we see those other devotions as bad, it’s just that they aren’t ours. Plus, Rome has been call for us for a couple of centuries now to return to our own authentic heritage and to de-Latinize those things which have been Latinized. So in returning to our own traditions we are not only being true to our own identity, we are also being obedient to Rome.

One example of a (pseudo)-Latinization was the insistence by Rome that our Liturgies be celebrated in a “liturgical/sacred” language. Now I won’t speak for the Oriental tradition, but among the Byzantines there is no real such thing as a “sacred” language. Our custom has always been to celebrate the Liturgical services of our Church in the language of the people. The then Archimandrite Joseph Raya (Melkite - eventually Archbishop) received much flack from Rome for translating our services into English for the sake of non-Arab people who were attending his parish out of curiosity. The concern at the time was that his parish would be flooded with disgruntled Roman Catholics who liked the fact that they could understand what was being sung at Abouna Joseph’s parish. Fr. Raya wrote a letter enumerating why he was celebrating the Liturgy in English and how this was justified according to the Byzantine tradition. The Melkite Patriarch (Maximos IV I believe it was) intervened and told Fr. Raya he would handle things from there. Two months later Raya’s position was completely vindicated. Incidentally this was one of the first occasions among Eastern Catholics that the Liturgy was celebrated in English in the U.S.

As to the argument that the push for de-Latinization comes primarily from “converts” to Eastern Christianity from Roman Catholicism, I would say that this isn’t quite fair. Sometimes converts are the breath of fresh air that a Church needs for revitalization and even return to tradition. Where would the Catholic Church in the U.S. be without such amazing converts as Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, and a good many people from Catholic Answers? Likewise in my experience it isn’t people who grew up with the Extraordinary Form that are clamoring for its return, it is “converts” to the Extraordinary Form from the Ordinary Form who are it’s strongest advocates. These are obviously generalizations and aren’t true across the board, but such seems to be true in most cases. As with anything, however, sensitivity and pastoral care are needed. In parishes that are heavily Latinized any de-Latinization will not be over night, and may even take generations.

I would also point out that, at least among the Melkites, it is our own hierarchs that are pushing for de-Latinization and that got the process started to begin with. So whether the people on these forums are “converts” or not, we are only being true to our identity, obedient to the Pope, and most importantly we are being obedient to our own bishops and Patriarch.
 
I just wanted to add my two cents in addressing the original OP. It’s not that Eastern Catholics things Roman. Many of us very much love and respect them. It’s just that we don’t think they belong in our public liturgical life. Things like the Rosary or Divine Mercy chaplet, etc. are all great and wonderful (my wife and I frequently pray the Divine Mercy chaplet together), but what many people bemoan is the replacing of our own public traditions such as Matins/Orthros or one of the Lesser Hours before the Divine Liturgy with a public Rosary. Or the replacing of the singing of the Akathist hymn during Great Lent with the Stations of the Cross. It’s not that we see those other devotions as bad, it’s just that they aren’t ours. Plus, Rome has been call for us for a couple of centuries now to return to our own authentic heritage and to de-Latinize those things which have been Latinized. So in returning to our own traditions we are not only being true to our own identity, we are also being obedient to Rome.

One example of a (pseudo)-Latinization was the insistence by Rome that our Liturgies be celebrated in a “liturgical/sacred” language. Now I won’t speak for the Oriental tradition, but among the Byzantines there is no real such thing as a “sacred” language. Our custom has always been to celebrate the Liturgical services of our Church in the language of the people. The then Archimandrite Joseph Raya (Melkite - eventually Archbishop) received much flack from Rome for translating our services into English for the sake of non-Arab people who were attending his parish out of curiosity. The concern at the time was that his parish would be flooded with disgruntled Roman Catholics who liked the fact that they could understand what was being sung at Abouna Joseph’s parish. Fr. Raya wrote a letter enumerating why he was celebrating the Liturgy in English and how this was justified according to the Byzantine tradition. The Melkite Patriarch (Maximos IV I believe it was) intervened and told Fr. Raya he would handle things from there. Two months later Raya’s position was completely vindicated. Incidentally this was one of the first occasions among Eastern Catholics that the Liturgy was celebrated in English in the U.S.

As to the argument that the push for de-Latinization comes primarily from “converts” to Eastern Christianity from Roman Catholicism, I would say that this isn’t quite fair. Sometimes converts are the breath of fresh air that a Church needs for revitalization and even return to tradition. Where would the Catholic Church in the U.S. be without such amazing converts as Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, and a good many people from Catholic Answers? Likewise in my experience it isn’t people who grew up with the Extraordinary Form that are clamoring for its return, it is “converts” to the Extraordinary Form from the Ordinary Form who are it’s strongest advocates. These are obviously generalizations and aren’t true across the board, but such seems to be true in most cases. As with anything, however, sensitivity and pastoral care are needed. In parishes that are heavily Latinized any de-Latinization will not be over night, and may even take generations.

I would also point out that, at least among the Melkites, it is our own hierarchs that are pushing for de-Latinization and that got the process started to begin with. So whether the people on these forums are “converts” or not, we are only being true to our identity, obedient to the Pope, and most importantly we are being obedient to our own bishops and Patriarch.
👍
 
It was his WILL to be allowed to follow the traditions of his church. The same traditions that at the time of union with Rome, his church was promised by Rome these traditions would be allowed and upheld.

St Alexis of Wilkes Barre pray to God for us!!
It was his canonical right to find a bishop who would allow him to preserve the practice of the faith in the Byzantine rite, as St. Alexis (a professor of canon law) knew very well. If both Archbishop Ireland and the Russian Orthodox bishop are in some way acting irregularly (the one through deliberately violating canons, the other through de facto schism resulting from a historical accident), he might as well choose the one who will serve the good of his church.

St. Alexis of Wilkes Barre pray to God for us!
 
My turn to address the OP:

As has been said before, we don’t hate things Roman, only when they are imposed unorganically in our tradition violating its integrity and watering down the Faith. I’m equally opposed to false impositions of Byzantine practice in the Roman Rite. (Some Dominicans once convinced me that that was what the Novus Ordo is. They thought that would make me like the Novus Ordo. I find the comparison offensive to the Byzantine liturgy.)

Here are some examples of Latinizations I’ve seen:

Iconostases torn down and stored in the basement, or replaced with flimsy structures that you can see through. (UGCC and Ruthenian churches)

Female acolytes. (UGCC churches, though it is forbidden by UGCC and Ruthenian particular law.)

Spoken Liturgies instead of chanted ones, cutting down the time of the Liturgy to 45 minutes (properly done, including Orthros, it should be 2.5 hours). (UGCC churches)

Praying the Latin Rosary instead of Orthros (Matins) before Liturgy, thereby preparing for the Holy Sacrifice with a 20-minute prayer rather than an hour-long one. (UGCC churches)

Crucifixes and statues inside churches. (Again, the UGCC)

Omission of the antidoron. (Is my accusing the UGCC starting to become monotonous? Historically this has been true of the Ruthenians as well.)

The use of confessionals even when the church is empty instead of hearing confession in front of the iconostasis. (This was a UGCC priest)

Stations of the Cross instead of icons on the walls. (UGCC)

Instruments of the Passion decorating the walls of the church instead of icons. (A Melkite church)

Saturday evening Liturgies as common practice instead of Great Vespers on Saturday night followed by Liturgy the next morning. (Ruthenians, Ukrainians, and Melkites)

Administration of Holy Communion by the priest’s hand rather than by a spoon. (Melkites)

Kneeling on Sundays. (Ukrainians)

Pews and/or chairs. (Ukrainians, Melkites, and Ruthenians.)

Multiple Liturgies per day on the same altar. (Ukrainians AGAIN.)

Lutheran architectural style. (This is a Romanian Catholic church whose construction was funded and controlled by a Roman Catholic bishop who wanted it for himself - though in spite of his expectations he’s dead and the parish he coveted is thriving.)

I should note that my experience with the Ukrainians is a bit unique - apparently I just managed to hit a bunch of bad churches, one of them REALLY bad.

I do not have a problem with any of these - except maybe the Saturday night Mass and female acolytes - in the West. In fact, I am a strong defender of Tradition in the West, and if I am ever in a Roman Mass I will kneel for Holy Communion even if nobody else in the church is doing so (though typically the only Roman Masses I choose to attend are Tridentine). Kneeling has a different symbolism in the West - it represents devotion and prayer, whereas for us it conveys sorrow and penitence. I also have no problem with organic cross-fertilizations that do not impinge on the splendor of the Liturgies - the use of choirs in Russia and Ukraine, and even to a certain degree the Russian development of polyphony (which they did very well), the devotion to iconography of the Polish people, the use of Old Church Slavonic and Greek in the Roman Mass in Croatia and Calabria respectively (Calabria also of course had a very large Byzantine-rite Italo-Greek population), and when these Latinizations and private Roman Catholic devotions occurred in Ukraine as a way for the people to preserve their identity as Catholics when Stalin was forcing them to become Orthodox, I’m not going to complain - but as a young convert from Protestantism via Roman Catholicism, I’ve never been forced to become Orthodox, and I want to express the Byzantine Rite in the fullness of its tradition.

Part of the problem is that Roman Catholic traditionalists have often been the ones pressuring us to adopt Latinizations - things certainly not traditional for us - by their confusion of their tradition with the wholeness of Catholicism. The SSPX in particular has wreaked havoc among the Church in Ukraine by their satellite group the “Society of St. Josaphat Kuntseyvitch” which openly rebelled against Cardinal Husar for his objection to their Latinizations, and was excommunicated by Pope John Paul II upon their appeal.

And in disagreement with our venerable brother and master beadsman Mr. Rolfes, the idea of a sacred language is just as Eastern as it is Western. The Russians and especially the Old Believers still cling to Old Church Slavonic, and you can find a YouTube video of a riot that broke out during a Vespers service in Greece less than a year ago when the Metropolitan chanted the Gospel in demotike rather than katharevousa.
 
My opinion:

I am, sadly, quite torn here, because I love both sides of the Suis Juris groups; both eastern and latin traditions. The Latin brings them closer to Roman Catholicism, but the Eastern also grants the beauty of each of their uniqueness. I sincerely wish there was a way to preserve both; because I love them both so much. It would be like saying,“Can you separate God the Father from God the Son?” (Maybe this form of expression isn’t correct; someone correct me if so)

-MontChevalier
 
My opinion:

I am, sadly, quite torn here, because I love both sides of the Suis Juris groups; both eastern and latin traditions. The Latin brings them closer to Roman Catholicism, but the Eastern also grants the beauty of each of their uniqueness. I sincerely wish there was a way to preserve both; because I love them both so much. It would be like saying,“Can you separate God the Father from God the Son?” (Maybe this form of expression isn’t correct; someone correct me if so)

-MontChevalier
Being FAITHFUL to our own tradition brings us closer to GOD! I think that is a bit more important then looking more like the RCs! :mad::mad::mad:
 
And in disagreement with our venerable brother and master beadsman Mr. Rolfes, the idea of a sacred language is just as Eastern as it is Western. The Russians and especially the Old Believers still cling to Old Church Slavonic, and you can find a YouTube video of a riot that broke out during a Vespers service in Greece less than a year ago when the Metropolitan chanted the Gospel in demotike rather than katharevousa.
I was going to say pretty much the same thing, but you did it far more gently. Thanks. 😉 🙂 The only thing I’ll add is that, while I wouldn’t call them “sacred” languages, I’m sure the Orthodox (OO and EO both) would be quite amused to hear that use and maintenance of the various venerable ancient liturgical languages is a latinization.
 
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