Why do so many in the pro-life movement want no punishment for women if abortion was illegal?

[Questioner2]

Merely saying the fact that smoking a certain plant would be punished more severly that killing a person is rather obsurd.

I don’t think that is what you are merely saying, Steve93. I think you are saying that you hope that every miscarriage comes with a murder charge.

 

[steve93]

I was talking about the kind of women who march bare chest in the streets and scream that “abortion is a human right” and that you should pay for it. The other posters make it sound as if I propose some scared 16 year old girl in Ireland in the 40’s should be executed for attemting to secure an abortion. Thats not what I’m saying.

 

[steve93]

I don’t think that is what you are merely saying, Steve93. I think you are saying that you hope that every miscarriage comes with a murder charge.

That’s obsurd, does every death in the obituaries require a murder charge? Of course not.

 

[Questioner2]

I was talking about the kind of women who march bare chest in the streets and scream that “abortion is a human right” and that you should pay for it. The other posters make it sound as if I propose some scared 16 year old girl in Ireland in the 40’s should be executed for attemting to secure an abortion. Thats not what I’m saying.

Those kinds of women? No, Steve 93, you are talking about ME. My kind of woman.

I feel your contempt loud and clear.

There are not different kinds of women. There are women.

 

[Questioner2]

I was talking about the kind of women who march bare chest in the streets and scream that “abortion is a human right” and that you should pay for it. The other posters make it sound as if I propose some scared 16 year old girl in Ireland in the 40’s should be executed for attemting to secure an abortion. Thats not what I’m saying.

And why on earth shouldn’t she be executed for her crime. She fornicated. She became pregnant. She sought to murder her own child.

Burn her! Burn her at the stake!

 

[steve93]

Those kinds of women? No, Steve 93, you are talking about ME. My kind of woman.

I feel your contempt loud and clear.

There are not different kinds of women. There are women.

I was not talking about you. I was refering to the Femen / P_ Riot types.
I do not “loath” women, or however it was worded. Without a Woman, we would all be condemned with no means of salvation (Jesus had to be born before He could die for us.) I agree that I would highy doubt any of these women got pregnant by themselves and I freely admit that a sizable portion of men these days are self-indulgent rakes with no concern for the consequences of their actions.

 

[Questioner2]

I was not talking about you. I was refering to the Femen / P_ Riot types.
I do not “loath” women, or however it was worded. Without a Woman, we would all be condemned with no means of salvation (Jesus had to be born before He could die for us.) I agree that I would highy doubt any of these women got pregnant by themselves and I freely admit that a sizable portion of men these days are self-indulgent rakes with no concern for the consequences of their actions.

OK, this is a really good illustration of how you know nothing about who is on the other end of the internet connection.

I am an admirer of the great Russian punk band ***** Riot. The are brave activists who have literally put their bodies on the line for their cause.

You’re comment reminded of me of their immortal hit “Straight outta vagina”

“Don’t play stupid, don’t play dumb…vagina’s where you’re really from!”

(CAFers…don’t google the video…you will be offended and I don’t want that. And how about we don’t get into a discussion about this band and its activism? Off topic and as is often the case, few share my opinions. A humble request.)

 

[steve93]

OK, this is a really good illustration of how you know nothing about who is on the other end of the internet connection.

I am an admirer of the great Russian punk band ***** Riot. The are brave activists who have literally put their bodies on the line for their cause.

You’re comment reminded of me of their immortal hit “Straight outta vagina”

“Don’t play stupid, don’t play dumb…vagina’s where you’re really from!”

(CAFers…don’t google the video…you will be offended and I don’t want that. And how about we don’t get into a discussion about this band and its activism? Off topic and as is often the case, few share my opinions. A humble request.)

So you support nude women invading holy cathedrals in Europe, Russia, and South America? Chanting “kill Kirill” and appealing to Our Lady to overthrow the Russian State? (Mother of God please forgive me for referencing your Most Pure name in the same sentence.)
Who attack His Holiness the Patriarch while n_de and get 2 weeks for it?!! Are you insane? Do you beieve the Nazis came to “liberate” the ukraine region also? I wouldn’t be surprized.

 

[Questioner2]

So you support nude women invading holy cathedrals in Europe, Russia, and South America? Chanting “kill Kirill” and appealing to Our Lady to overthrow the Russian State? (Mother of God please forgive me for referencing your Most Pure name in the same sentence.)
Who attack His Holiness the Patriarch while n_de and get 2 weeks for it?!! Are you insane? Do you beieve the Nazis came to “liberate” the ukraine region also? I wouldn’t be surprized.

sigh. I see you don’t respond to polite requests. I’m not going to discuss every little aspect of this activist group…I actually don’t know all that much about it. So no, I don’t “support” each and everything they’ve done. I’ve seen a few videos. I admire that they are willing to go to jail for their beliefs. I admire that they are outspoken about the confronting the corruption and dysfunction in their own society.

How about we agree that you know more about them than me, and you find them the epitome of evil?

deal?

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Because we recognize that many women who choose and seek abortions are facing incredibly difficult personal circumstances, and that the means to assist those people isn’t through punishment, but rather by offering a helping hand. It’s the same mentality that says that you don’t punish a starving child who steals just so they won’t starve.

while I truly do not believe that criminalizing abortion would help the pro-life movement, it is possible to have a law against abortion and not punish women; you punish the people providing the abortions. If there is a disincentive to perform the procedure, the rates drop off.

But again, criminalization is not the answer. The answer lies in changing society’s mindset to stop pathologizing pregnancy, to not devalue life merely because it is unborn, and to place greater emphasis on supporting women with unplanned pregnancies to let them make the best choices for them AND their child.

 

[Questioner2]

Well, thank you for this further information. Like I said, I don’t know much about them, nor am I particularly interested. I defer to your much greater knowledge.

I certainly don’t approve of sacrilegious behavior, and I’m sorry if invoking them caused you any upset. I apologize to you and to CAF and won’t be mentioning these particular enthusiastic, yet likely misguided young folk again. Kids, right? What are you going to do.

I still take offense at ugly remarks about “those kinds of women”, whoever those women might be. That is not charitable.

 

[steve93]

I did not intend to lump all women into an “identity politics” group, nor did I say that the entire women’s rights movement is fundimentally flawed any more than I would say that if one is not a monarchist then one is hence a Bolshevik.
To wish ill of the entire womens’ rights movement on account of abortion would be as sensible as disavowing ones nation over a political scandal case.

 

[BornInMarch]

You need to let this fixation of punishing post-abortive women go. Instead, focus your passion on helping women in crisis pregnancies. Whatever this genetic disability you have, there is going to be a support group or resource clearinghouse for those who have it and for women whose prenatal testing diagnosis shows they are carrying a child that has it. Go reach out to them and show them that the disability isn’t as limiting as they think (you are obviously an intelligent individual that can post on here, so prove that it’s not as bad as they may have been led to believe). Posting things about wanting post-abortive women imprisoned does the prolife effort NO GOOD and actually does it great harm. You said this fight is personal for you, so go make it personal for someone in need. Go be the help the mother carrying an unborn child with your particular genetic disability needs…or be the help any women in a crisis pregnancy needs.

What you call a fixation, I call a thirst for justice. It’s like

I didn’t respond sooner because your post put me at a dilemma.

On one hand, it might be more pragmatic to wait until we have a strong social support before calling for legislation. The Founding Fathers tried to take a similar approach to slavery; knowing they couldn’t abolish it in their own time but hoping they could bring about a gradual emancipation. It worked in some countries, but it didn’t work in the United States (here it escalate to war) and in the meantime people still spent their entire lives in slavery.

On the other hand, it doesn’t change the fact that in my heart I believe that post-abortive women are murderers who deserve to be treated like murderers by both society and government. So if I claim NOT to support making abortion punishable by imprisonment then I would be lying.

So should I lie about my feelings?

 

[BornInMarch]

I did not intend to lump all women into an “identity politics” group, nor did I say that the entire women’s rights movement is fundimentally flawed any more than I would say that if one is not a monarchist then one is hence a Bolshevik.
To wish ill of the entire womens’ rights movement on account of abortion would be as sensible as disavowing ones nation over a political scandal case.

Don’t feel bad Steve. I too believe that women who get abortions are murderers and should be treated like murders.

In any case, an attack on legalized abortion is NOT an attack on women. As I already mentioned, 50% of women actually oppose legalized abortion. In fact there are more women in the pro-life movement than men, and many of the early members of feminist and women’s suffrage movements were pro-life.

In the Declaration of Sentiments, in which the Seneca Falls Convention outlined their goals, one of their complaints was that women were able to commit crimes with impunity (because society saw women as being both incapable of cruelty and as being too fragile to repay debts to society).
Declaration of Sentiments:

The history of mankind is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations on the part of man toward woman, having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over her. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.
…
He has made her, morally, an irresponsible being, as she can commit many crimes, with impunity, provided they be done in the presence of her husband. In the covenant of marriage, she is compelled to promise obedience to her husband, he becoming, to all intents and purposes, her master - the law giving him power to deprive her of her liberty, and to administer chastisement.

If we consider murder to be unethical than we are obliged to strive towards ensuring nobody gets away with murder. If we consider abortion to be murder than we must treat it like murder. If we consider women to be equal to men than they must receive the same punishment for the same crime. Anything less is to spit in the face of justice and to stomp on the graves of the murdered children.

 

[Rau]

…
If we consider abortion to be murder then we must treat it like murder.

In a democracy, in the context of the law and punishment, the meaning of “we” is prescribed. It is the majority “we” that determines the law and that is the process the whole society commits to accept.

Personally, I doubt anywhere near a majority will support murder convictions and punishments for persons procuring abortions. If I’m wrong, I’d expect the law to be changed fairly soon.

 

[starshiptrooper]

That is not necessary. Just investigate only upon a citizen’s report or evidence that is in plain view.

 

[Questioner2]

What you call a fixation, I call a thirst for justice. It’s like

I didn’t respond sooner because your post put me at a dilemma.

On one hand, it might be more pragmatic to wait until we have a strong social support before calling for legislation. The Founding Fathers tried to take a similar approach to slavery; knowing they couldn’t abolish it in their own time but hoping they could bring about a gradual emancipation. It worked in some countries, but it didn’t work in the United States (here it escalate to war) and in the meantime people still spent their entire lives in slavery.

On the other hand, it doesn’t change the fact that in my heart I believe that post-abortive women are murderers who deserve to be treated like murderers by both society and government. So if I claim NOT to support making abortion punishable by imprisonment then I would be lying.

So should I lie about my feelings?

Please don’t lie about your feelings. I think you should be completely transparent about your views to everyone in your life and everyone you meet. People deserve to know your views so they can make an informed decision about whether they wish to associate with you, don’t you think?

And if you’re goal is to make sure that the right to a safe, legal abortion remains the law of the land forever, expressing your views and advocating for them in the public square is a great way to assure that will be the case.

 

[LightBound]

What you call a fixation, I call a thirst for justice. It’s like

I didn’t respond sooner because your post put me at a dilemma.

On one hand, it might be more pragmatic to wait until we have a strong social support before calling for legislation. The Founding Fathers tried to take a similar approach to slavery; knowing they couldn’t abolish it in their own time but hoping they could bring about a gradual emancipation. It worked in some countries, but it didn’t work in the United States (here it escalate to war) and in the meantime people still spent their entire lives in slavery.

On the other hand, it doesn’t change the fact that in my heart I believe that post-abortive women are murderers who deserve to be treated like murderers by both society and government. So if I claim NOT to support making abortion punishable by imprisonment then I would be lying.

So should I lie about my feelings?

No, don’t lie about your feelings. I won’t lie about mine. I’m glad my question put you in a dilemma. I want you to think. I want you to think about what YOU can do to help women in crisis pregnancies not feel like they must make a desperate choice to end their pregnancy. What you call a “thirst for justice” is like the person looking forward to punishing the murderer after a crime takes place but with no intention of trying to prevent it from happening in the first place. So I ask you, what are you**** doing to help women with crisis pregnancies? From your reply here and the majority of your posts on this thread, it certainly appears you’d rather be the lynch mob after the fact instead of someone on the front lines trying to help these women and their unborn babies. For the love of God, try to help these women instead of posting all over the web about how you want to punish them. It’s actually creepy to read your animosity towards them with NO response about how you are working to help those in that situation. Really creepy.

 

[steve93]

If Starshiptrooper could put his racial views on the back burner so to speak, I think he could find a government job in Cuba.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This is one of the biggest hypocrisies I see with what is called the “pro life” movement. Their desire to call abortion murder yet being unwilling to prosecute the woman at least for being an accomplice in the “murder”. People involved in an actual murder are punished. I personally don’t want to see women punished but then I don’t go around calling it murder either.