Why do so many in the pro-life movement want no punishment for women if abortion was illegal?

  • Thread starter Thread starter AFerri48
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Actually, preventing more crimes isn’t the only reason why we punish criminals. If somebody commits a murder then he gets sent to prison even if he is unlikely to ever kill again, the reason is for justice’s sake. We can’t bring back a murder victim, but by putting the murder in prison we can restore some of the victim’s dignity and make it clear that the victim’s life had intrinsic value.

Locking women up for getting abortions would accomplish the same thing; it would give dignity to their murdered child, it make it clear that the dead child’s life had intrinsic value, and it would demonstrate that we really do consider the unborn child to be just as much a human being as a born child or an adult.

If somebody murdered me in cold blood then I would want that person to go to prison for it, and I am sure most people would as well. We owe it to the dead to at least give them dignity and justice.
Justice isn’t defined by what we take from the sinner, only by what can be returned to the wronged. Dignity is not lost in the victim, but rather their life. Dignity is lost in the offender. And there isn’t a single second spent in prison on Earth that will satisfy atonement.What dignity can be restored to the mother or life restored to her unborn child by imprisoning her? How do you measure that? With what quantity of time and severity of solitude can we restore anything to the child? How may the mother work to restore her dignity?

To assume they child requires justice on our behalf is a prideful folly. These things are not for us to decide. Only the state can decide how it will be compensated for its own grievance. But when has prison ever satisfied a grievance? Sentencing to imprisonment fails to look past the offended to the redemption of the offender.
 
Justice isn’t defined by what we take from the sinner, only by what can be returned to the wronged. Dignity is not lost in the victim, but rather their life. Dignity is lost in the offender. And there isn’t a single second spent in prison on Earth that will satisfy atonement.
Actually, that is part of Justice. Justice in criminal law is separated into four parts; retribution (you are being punished because your crime was too heinous for you to be allowed to get away with it), rehabilitation (you are being punished so that you can learn the error of your ways and never commit your crime again), deterrence (you are being punished as an example to others so that fear of this punishment prevents them from committing your crime), and incapacitation (you are being punished so that you will be physically unable to commit your crime again). All four of these apply to premeditated murder.

As for dignity, the victims dignity CAN be lost if the victim is dehumanized or treated by the law as unworthy of protection. Every law sends a message to society and to the people in it. Punishing a murder with imprisonment sends the message that the victim’s life had value, that the crime was a transgression against all of humankind, and that the crime is intolerable. Meanwhile allowing a murderer to go free, or otherwise giving a murder an overly lenient punishment, sends the message that the victim’s life was worthless, that nobody really cared about the victim, and that society doesn’t even consider the murder to really be an offense.

And for atonement, Imprisonment can and often does produce that. That’s why they are called Correctional Facilities, because they are (or at least originally were) meant to rehabilitate the prisoner. Make the prisoner feel remorse for his/her crime, or at the very least make the prisoner never want to commit that crime again.
What dignity can be restored to the mother or life restored to her unborn child by imprisoning her? How do you measure that? With what quantity of time and severity of solitude can we restore anything to the child? How may the mother work to restore her dignity?
The convicted murderer can regain some of the lost dignity through accepting punishment. That’s why somebody who was released from prison after a sentence often speaks of having paid their debt to society or of having become a changed person. Additionally, if a prison system is working properly, then it will be designed to encourage rehabilitation among all the prisoners and to ensure as many learn their lessons as possible.
To assume they child requires justice on our behalf is a prideful folly. These things are not for us to decide. Only the state can decide how it will be compensated for its own grievance. But when has prison ever satisfied a grievance? Sentencing to imprisonment fails to look past the offended to the redemption of the offender.
By your logic nobody should ever get sent to prison for a crime. Do you think that the judge did nothing wrong in letting Ethan Couch walk free after killing four people?

As for The State, it isn’t a God that makes decisions with neither (name removed by moderator)ut nor error. The State is made of the governed, exists to serve the governed, and change according to the will of the governed. That means that these things are exactly the things for us to decide, and that changing the law is as easy as convincing enough people that a change is necessary.

I suggest you read John Locke’s Second Treatise on Government. He was an enlightenment thinker and his work goes into length about human rights, natural law, and the role of government.
The most significant idea in his Second Treatise is that all human beings are born with unalienable rights, that those rights are protected by natural law, that anybody who breaks the law of nature has declared war on all of humankind and therefore needs to be punished (but not disproportionately), and that people form governments to ensure their rights are protected.
 
This is for those of you who want to throw a woman in jail for having an abortion. Are you ready and willing to take care of her other children while she rots in jail? I didn’t think so.
 
There should be no punishment.

Even the pope agrees.

Peace.
 
This is for those of you who want to throw a woman in jail for having an abortion. Are you ready and willing to take care of her other children while she rots in jail? I didn’t think so.
Would you be asking that question if she had murdered someone who had been born?

In the immediate term I think that it would hinder making abortion illegal. However, I have no problem in principle with a woman who has an abortion going to jail for it.
 
if there is punishment for a woman getting an abortion, then it should also be law that baby daddy is punished also. I don’t know how that would work , but fathers should not be automatically left off the hook.
 
if there is punishment for a woman getting an abortion, then it should also be law that baby daddy is punished also. I don’t know how that would work , but fathers should not be automatically left off the hook.
If the baby daddy conspired with the woman to get an abortion, I agree.

What if he did not know or if he was against the abortion? Can’t punish him in that case.
 
if there is punishment for a woman getting an abortion, then it should also be law that baby daddy is punished also. I don’t know how that would work , but fathers should not be automatically left off the hook.
I agree with it, provided they approved of or supported it.

Sometimes the father doesn’t want the abortion. I read one story about a guy who tried in vain to convince his (at the time) girlfriend not to get an abortion; even though she told him that she had made up her mind as soon as she was pregnant, he still (unfairly but understandably) blamed himself for his child’s murder and believed that if he had tried harder his child would be alive.
 
If the Pro-Life Movement gains enough momentum than it, like the Abolitionist Movement, will get written into international law. From there a group like the United Nations can require all member states to outlaw abortion and to enforce such laws.

The abolitionist movement gives me hope. People in the past saw how evil and profane slavery was, yet despite it being legal globally they still opposed it. Though Wang Mang and Bartolome de las Cases never lived to see their work come to fruition, today slavery is universally illegal and people caught owning or trading slaves are severely punished. People are made in God’s Image, so I have hope that with faith and with empathy humanity can cease its atrocities.
 
You are not. Should the state know the pregnancy status of every woman leaving and returning?
 
If the Pro-Life Movement gains enough momentum than it, like the Abolitionist Movement, will get written into international law. From there a group like the United Nations can require all member states to outlaw abortion and to enforce such laws.
There will be no anti-abortion laws until there is overwhelming public support for such laws.
 
You are not. Should the state know the pregnancy status of every woman leaving and returning?
Some states already try to keep track of the travels of every civilian. Some countries won’t let you cross a national border or board a plane for any reason without identification (my own country, the United States, does this to clamp down on international crime such as drug running).
There will be no anti-abortion laws until there is overwhelming public support for such laws.
Obviously that comes first, but overwhelming public support shouldn’t be the end itself. It should be the means to the real end (a world without abortion).
 
Do you think Unborn Children are murdered by abortion? If you don’t then I fail to understand why you oppose abortion at all, and if you do then I fail to understand why you think a conspirator in the murder should be let off just for being a woman?
 
Do you think Unborn Children are murdered by abortion? If you don’t then I fail to understand why you oppose abortion at all, and if you do then I fail to understand why you think a conspirator in the murder should be let off just for being a woman?
Will you not be satisfied until every woman of childbearing age must undergo a pregnancy test and ultrasound every 30 days to ensure she didn’t have an abortion?
 
Some states already try to keep track of the travels of every civilian. Some countries won’t let you cross a national border or board a plane for any reason without identification (my own country, the United States, does this to clamp down on international crime such as drug running).

Obviously that comes first, but overwhelming public support shouldn’t be the end itself. It should be the means to the real end (a world without abortion).
Will you not be satisfied until every woman of childbearing age must undergo a pregnancy test and ultrasound every 30 days to ensure she didn’t have an abortion?
 
Let me rephrase my sentence; why don’t you want women to be imprisoned for procuring an abortion?

The reason I want women to be imprisoned for abortion is that I believe that abortion is murder and that the woman who procures an abortion is a participant deserving of imprisonment.
 
Do you think Unborn Children are murdered by abortion? If you don’t then I fail to understand why you oppose abortion at all, and if you do then I fail to understand why you think a conspirator in the murder should be let off just for being a woman?
Christian morality requires that we do only good acts, and also states that any act judged to cause more harm than good is NOT a good act. Now this is a matter of judgement, so good people can reach different conclusions. There may well be a case to be made that jailing a mother aborting a child dies more harm than good. That’s a judgement made at a point in time, and at a different time, in a different society, we may judge differently.
 
Will you not be satisfied until every woman of childbearing age must undergo a pregnancy test and ultrasound every 30 days to ensure she didn’t have an abortion?
I just want a society that doesn’t hate children, that is all!

I am tired of hearing stories about children being left in ice or thrown in dumpsters or buried next to highways and either being found injured or being found dead. I am tired of seeing egotists argue in favor of legalized infanticide and being called “brave” for it. I am tired of parents having the ability to strangle their newborn children to death and afterwards live long full lives (in most countries the punishment for murdering a young baby is around a year in prison, far less than the punishment for murdering an adult). I am tired of seeing CPS being treated like boogeymen and I am tried of children being left with adults who rape and beat them because of “parental rights”. I am tired of seeing children euthanized for having disabilities, and I am tired of children dying of preventable diseases because of the wishes of their parents. I am tired of people being able to hurt those who are vulnerable and being able to easily get away with it or even be praised for it.

I just want a world where children are treated as valuable, not because of their parents but because of their own sake. I just want a world where hurting children is seen as being more evil than hurting an adult, and where the law actually reflects that.

I was born with a genetic disability, and while there has been some difficulty I am happy with my life and am glad to be alive. So imagine how it feels to hear people use disabilities as a justification for abortion, or to learn that the majority of children conceived with disabilities get aborted.
 
…I just want a world where children are treated as valuable, not because of their parents but because of their own sake. I just want a world where hurting children is seen as being more evil than hurting an adult, and where the law actually reflects that.
The law will move when people have moved - and I believe it would be counterproductive if somehow the former were to be accomplished before the latter.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top