Why do so many protestants not consider church attendance an important part of their faith?

[jmcrae]

If you don’t mean that they are consecrated by the Spirit, then who are they consecrated by?

As far as I know, they aren’t consecrated at all, since they have no Bishops with Apostolic Succession to appoint them and ordain them.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus told the apostles they were consecrated in truth and spirit…and the laying on of their hands to the successors with ordination—accepted and approved by the bishops from the faithful is passed down to each generation.

Holy Scripture and Tradition, such as that stated above and in previous posts represent the entertwining of Scripture and its intent through the Holy Spirit working through the Tradition of the church—interpreting the Word God Made Flesh–Jesus Christ–faithful to the oral tradition passed down to us from Christ through His apostles and successors.

 

[PRmerger]

Now when I read this I hear you saying that all preaching done in the CC is done by consecreted leaders

No. I never said, or even implied, that “all preaching done in the CC is done by consecrated leaders.”

All baptized Christians are called to preach the Gospel. All Catholics have been exhorted to preach the Gospel. Not just consecrated priests and bishops.

but I take it that you mean that these consecrated leaders are consecrated by the Holy Spirit while the preaching done by the non Catholic preacher will be wrong because of coarse they are not consecrated by the Spirit. If you don’t mean that they are consecrated by the Spirit, then who are they consecrated by?

Consecrated and infallible are not the same thing.

I’m simply saying that if you follow your preacher’s interpretation of Scripture, then, as a fallible man, he’s going to be wrong at some point. Going. To. Be. Wrong.

Now, Catholics, who are also fallible, are also called to preach the Gospel. However, at any point that our preaching departs from the Deposit of Faith you will know who’s wrong.

In your paradigm, you simply can’t tell who’s wrong.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

As far as I know, they aren’t consecrated at all, since they have no Bishops with Apostolic Succession to appoint them and ordain them.

Originally Posted by PRmerger

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles

No other Church (I do not wish to get into a discussion about our “other lung”, the Orthodox, so for this discussion, I’m only talking about the CC) can trace its consecrated leaders back to the apostles, and thus, back to Christ.

When we listen to a non-Catholic minister preach the Gospel–who admittedly is fallible, and therefore by definition he will be wrong at various points during his Scriptural interpretation–we cannot be certain of his authority. Indeed, he has none, except that which is self-appointed. (And that, certainly, is not Biblical!)

jmcrae this quote by PRmerger is the one you answered above. She was talking of Priests and bishops of the CC. I have no problem with you getting into the discussion, but please make sure of your quotes and what they are about. I don’t know about you but this topic is hard enough to wrap my brain around without misposts such as yours

 

[Richard_Kastner]

No. I never said, or even implied, that “all preaching done in the CC is done by consecrated leaders.”

What is the function of the “consecrated leaders”.

All baptized Christians are called to preach the Gospel. All Catholics have been exhorted to preach the Gospel. Not just consecrated priests and bishops.

Would they have more validity in their preaching than ordained non-Catholic preachers?

Consecrated and infallible are not the same thing.

What’s the difference?

I’m simply saying that if you follow your preacher’s interpretation of Scripture, then, as a fallible man, he’s going to be wrong at some point. Going. To. Be. Wrong.

And the preachers of the CC are not going to be wrong. Is that right? Wouldn’t that be infallable?

Now, Catholics, who are also fallible, are also called to preach the Gospel. However, at any point that our preaching departs from the Deposit of Faith you will know who’s wrong.

I don’t understand this.

In your paradigm, you simply can’t tell who’s wrong.

In my paradigm? I’m just trying to understand your post. You seem to be saying that consecrated leaders of the CC are infallable and all other preachers are wrong. Here’s your post again.
I took out the part about the Othodox for clarity.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles

No other Church can trace its consecrated leaders back to the apostles, and thus, back to Christ.

Are these consecrated leaders preachers?

When we listen to a non-Catholic minister preach the Gospel–who admittedly is fallible, and therefore by definition he will be wrong at various points during his Scriptural interpretation–we cannot be certain of his authority. Indeed, he has none, except that which is self-appointed. (And that, certainly, is not Biblical!)

Are you saying that the Catholic preachers will not ever be wrong and if you are, wouldn’t that be infallible

 

[PRmerger]

What is the function of the “consecrated leaders”.

Their function is the ministerial priesthood. The principal function of the ministerial priesthood is the Eucharistic sacrifice; they also function to forgive sins, to bless, to preach, to sanctify. In the exercise of these functions, however, he is subject to the authority of the bishop. The bishop is truly a priest (sacerdos), and even a high-priest; he has chief control of the Divine worship (sacrorum antistes), is the president of liturgical meetings; he has the fullness of the priesthood, and administers all the sacraments

By “consecrated” we mean they have been separated from a common to a sacred use. They are dedicated to the service and worship of God by prayers, rites, and ceremonies.

Would they have more validity in their preaching than ordained non-Catholic preachers?

Absolutely. They have the 2000 year history of the Church behind them. Quite a powerhouse!

And what do you mean by “ordained” non-Catholic preacher? Who ordained him? By what authority? And how were they “ordained”? By someone laying hands on him?

What’s the difference?

Between “consecrated” and “infallible”? Well, I already provided the definition of “consecrated” to you above (separated for a sacred use; set apart for holiness)

“Infallible” (theologically speaking) simply means protected from teaching error by a special Divine assistance regarding matters of faith and morals.

And the preachers of the CC are not going to be wrong. Is that right? Wouldn’t that be infallable?

No, that is not right. The preachers of the CC are going to be wrong. Indeed, I’m certain you’ve got a few examples of preachers of the CC being wrong, so I’m not certain why you ask a question that you know the answer to…except to be argumentative?

Priests, laity, and even bishops are not infallible when they preach.

The CC, however, is. So when priests, laity and bishops deviate from the Deposit of Faith we have a standard by which we can judge and discern the Truth.

Those outside the CC have no standard by which they can judge the Truth. So, is it God’s revelation that the Lord’s day be on a Saturday or a Sunday? Can we divorce and remarry, or is it adultery? Do you baptize infants or only adults? Is baptism a sacrament or an ordinance? Are we once saved/always saved? Or can we lose our salvation?

Without the standard of the infallible teaching authority of the CC, there are now over 40,000 different “truths” about God’s revelation.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t understand this.

In my paradigm? I’m just trying to understand your post. You seem to be saying that consecrated leaders of the CC are infallable and all other preachers are wrong. Here’s your post again.

Ok. Catholic priests are fallible, and can teach error. So let’s say you go to a Catholic Church and you hear a priest preach from the pulpit, “There is NOT one God. There are many gods.”

You can go, hmmmm…that doesn’t sound right to me. Let me see what the infallible teaching of the CC is. Oh! It says that there is only ONE God. So, that priest is wrong.

Now, you go to your church and you hear a preacher say, “Easter eggs are pagan and you ought not let your children hunt for them.” You’ve never heard that before. Scripture doesn’t specifically tell you they’re pagan, but then again, it doesn’t say they’re not pagan…so now what do you do? Who’s the authority you go to? The fallible preacher? Yourself? Do you chat about it with your family and then decide?

Hmmm…uch:

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Ok. Catholic priests are fallible, and can teach error. So let’s say you go to a Catholic Church and you hear a priest preach from the pulpit, “There is NOT one God. There are many gods.”

You can go, hmmmm…that doesn’t sound right to me. Let me see what the infallible teaching of the CC is. Oh! It says that there is only ONE God. So, that priest is wrong.

This infallible teaching. Where is it found? And who says the teaching of the CC is infallible?

 

[Izdaari]

I can’t speak for anyone else, but this Protestant (only by default, not being Catholic or Orthodox – I don’t think of myself as Protestant, only as Christian, and I have no quarrel with my Catholic and Orthodox brethren) does consider church to be important. I’ll miss it if I have to, and I don’t consider it sinful to miss it, but I’m missing out on my spiritual recharge for the week, and that’s not good. Of course, I can still do prayers and devotionals at home, but even though I don’t believe in Sacraments the same way that Catholics do, the corporate worship experience adds something special that I am loath to miss.

 

[KathleenGee]

I went through a charismatic experience while in college, and the Scriptures came alive…same thing happened to my parish people without the charismatic movement…this was in the early 70’s and people were on fire for their faith.

So you have this personal relationship with Christ and with Scripture that can be shared with other Christians outside the Catholic Church.

But it is very hard for protestants, especially those who have broken away from all the sacraments and have been indoctrinated by such ecclesial denominations to grasp we are even Christians or follow the Bible, or even understand the concept of Tradition.

The sacraments are not dependent on the personality of priests.

I will come back later and share a mystical writing on the sacraments and the priesthood by St. Catherine of Siena of whom I am reviewing at this time.

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard,

Again, we are drawing what we know of Jesus from His apostles…and it is the Holy Spirit with the Church (Tradition) that we have come to know Him. It is the same Holy Spirit from Pentecost that is active today in protecting the integrity of Jesus Christ through the Church. Don’t mix human frailty with Tradition. Doctrines are not created by one or two people but the seat of Peter in union with all the bishops in the world.

And common sense wise, it took some time to develop the structure of church considering that there were the Nazarene Jews who converted and had their own way, the Gentiles that have come from throughout the world with all their languages, cultures and races…the Church has to teach and assimilate them into the unversal church, and it is a give and take to allow people to retain aspects of their own region and culture…

I mean, it takes alot of work…so the bigger the outreach, the bigger the organization structure of the Church…that is all.

He has entrusted the universal Church to provide people the fullness of salvation, meaning we are given the most graces to understand Who Jesus is and the means He has given Himself – through His sacraments – as well as His word, the spiritual life, understanding the Word of God in the specific times we live in through theologians…Fr Corapi, Fr Mitch Pacwa, Fr Entennauer come to my mind…and others on EWTN network…our ongoing education in the moral life, liturgy–our form of worship…

The Sacraments are outward, concrete signs that bear the inner reality and actual presence of Jesus Christ, that are not dependant as I stated earlier, on the personality of the priest. It is a sacrament of Holy Orders…You can accept the preChristian people of faith in the Old Testament and all their means to have a gathering with their own rules and regulations, and rules to sustain the integrity of their entire life…same with the Church.

I mean, God provided for the Jewish people forms to have their own society that would protect them and nurture them to bring forth the Messiah, and to always be His chosen people…

Can’t He also do the same for His people who believe and love Jesus Christ???

 

[PRmerger]

This infallible teaching. Where is it found?

What do you mean, “where is it found”?

Clearly you know where the CC’s teachings can be found, so I find the question above disingenuous.

And who says the teaching of the CC is infallible?

Scripture does.

See this article, “Biblical Proof for Church Infallibility” for a wonderful explanation of that.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for the article as well…

Kathleen

 

[efoster988]

Having been raised non-denominational. I can’t say that protestants consider church attendance unimportant, my thought is that there is nothing drawing them to church other then fellowship or listening to the message of the pastor. Catholics on the other hand believe in the Eucharist and because of that fact have a real reason to attend mass and receive this sacrament.

As I learn more about the Catholic faith the Eucharist seems to be the difference that truly separates the two faiths.

 

[jmcrae]

This infallible teaching. Where is it found? And who says the teaching of the CC is infallible?

Jesus does, in Matthew 16:19, which is His promise to Peter, who was our first Pope.

Whatever you bind is bound, what you release is released. The gates of Hell shall not prevail over you - this means that Peter and his successors (that is to say, all of the Popes) are protected by the Holy Spirit from ever teaching any kind of error to the faithful, or ever commanding them to do anything that would go against God’s will.

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard,

Some time ago, I wrote directly from the catechism our foundation in regards to Scripture and tradition, as well as covering alot of what is being written here now.

 

[Roy5]

A couple briefs points

 1. While years ago Catholics attended Mass much more than Protestants attended Sunday worship, today the percentages are about the same - roughly 25%-30%. Many Protestants think they are doing well to attend, say, once or twice a month.

  2. From the time of the Reformation, Protestants were skeptical of the importance of what they called 'good works', that is, they deemphasized the Catholic emphasis on the idea that if you prayed certain prayers, etc., you 'got points' (indulgences). Luther's outrage, of course, came from the fact that Tetzel, raising money to build St. Peter's, said that giving money to that purpose would get relatives out of purgatory faster, cut down on one's own stay in purgatory, etc. 

  3. Catholics traditionally held their clergy in higher esteem than Protestants. Understandable in light of the idea that priests can absolve people of sin as well as recite a prayer that bings about transubstantiation re the Eucharist. So Protestants were less likely to do what the pastor asks them to do, e. g., attend worship faithfully. Ministers, of course, urge regular church attendance. Many Protestant parishes actually elect their pastors - e. g., Baptists and UCC.

  4. In many communities today Protestants attend church as frequently as Catholics, and even more frequently. There is a strong attachment to specific congregations among millions of Protestants, in part because of an extended family atmosphere. People anticipate seeing other people on Sunday, chatting during coffee hour, etc.

  5. There has developed over the past 50 years widespread skepticism among Catholics. Why? It is difficult for many modern minds to accept such basic doctrines as transubstantiation and the Immaculate Conception. They may view such doctrines as relics from medieval times that seem out of place in the present century. The decline in Catholic schools has played a role. So has the women's movement and the sexual revolution, which have impacted the entire society, all faiths. The percentage of people who say they have no religion or no church connection has risen considerably. I hear it said that there are 30,000,000 former Catholics in the USA. The continual condemnation of all artificial birth control by the Papacy has caused many Catholics to fall into the habit of disregarding church authority in other matters as well. I often have wondered how many of these ex-Catholics fell away from all religion and how many went into a different religion, Protestant or other.

  6. The sex scandal within Catholicism has had a major effect on many Catholics. Protestant clergy certainly have not escaped. Consider Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Richard Roberts and other evangelicals involved in scandals, some of them involving sex. The mainline Protestant denominations also have been plagued by divisive issues, most especially what attitude to take toward gays and lesbians. The Episcopalians, UCC, some Presbyterians and some others will ordain them. The two largest Protestant groups, Methodists and Baptists, will not, unless homosexuals are celibate. Tough issue. One that has plagued Catholicism where most of the sex crimes seem to have involved priests preying on teenage boys.  

  7. As a person with a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage myself, I find there is enormous division within Protestantism, with all sorts of opinions, though the mainline denominations seem to be very friendly and cooperative with one another. No authority. On the other hand, my beef with Catholicism is that it is more authorative than my rebellious streak easily accepts. 

   God bless Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists - and we could go on. God bless the whole world with peace and understanding and reconciliation and mutual respect - people of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]E=MooCowSteph;6526732]it seems more and more are becoming “unchurchers” if you will - believing that regular church attendance might even be harmful. They want to do a home church. Believing quite literally that where three gather, there goes the Lord. I’m not even sure how to approach those beliefs; they certainly don’t seem in line with the Bible.

***I suspect this get’s to the very heart of the difference in the FOCUS of our Worship practices?

Because Catholics actually and REALLY have Jesus Christ Present; we have God centered worship, which cannot be duplicated in a “home church.” We also go to hear the Word of God explained by folks who can actually do it correctly.

Protestant Worship is on music, fellowship and what their Pastor THINKS the bible MIGHT be saying. Because they are permitted to disagree; why not stay home. What’s a few thousand more personal understandings?

Not meaing to be mean or sarcastic; just making * a meaningful point. ****

 

[tweetymom]

[QUOT]E=MooCowSteph;6526732]it seems more and more are becoming “unchurchers” if you will - believing that regular church attendance might even be harmful. They want to do a home church. Believing quite literally that where three gather, there goes the Lord. I’m not even sure how to approach those beliefs; they certainly don’t seem in line with the Bible.

***I suspect this get’s to the very heart of the difference in the FOCUS of our Worship practices?

Because Catholics actually and REALLY have Jesus Christ Present; we have God centered worship, which cannot be duplicated in a “home church.” We also go to hear the Word of God explained by folks who can actually do it correctly.

Protestant Worship is on music, fellowship and what their Pastor THINKS the bible MIGHT be saying. Because they are permitted to disagree; why not stay home. What’s a few thousand more personal understandings?

Not meaing to be mean or sarcastic; just making * a meaningful point. ****

Not really sarcastic but wrong. Protestants have more than music,fellowship. and in no way have I ever been in a Protestant chucrch who’s Pastor thinks what the Bible is saying. Protestants have Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit with them always:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

=rev kevin;6539779]Romans 16:5 Paul says, “Please give my greetings to the church that meets in their homes.”

Romans 16:23 Paul says, "Gaius says hello to you. I am his guest, and the church meets in his home.

True enough; 2,000 years ago!

But the Church Christ founded has grown to be the largerst Christian Church in the World! Just like He mandated in Mat.28:19-20.

Are you seriously saying that is the position Christ wanted?

Love and prayers friend,