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Why do so many protestants not consider church attendance an important part of their faith?
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PRmerger
Guest
Correct–except for the “change” part. Refine? Yes. Change? No.
Nope-- to “change”; Yes, to “refinement”.
Meaning? What are you referring to?
Also, how can a fruit be evil?
And is your hot/cold example an example of a moral judgment?
(Because it seems like you allow yourself a non-moral analogy, and then when I provide my own example you cry, “Not a moral judgment!!” Oh, and the steak analogy you gave–is that an example of a moral judgment?)
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KathleenGee
Guest
I heard of this problem by a Catholic priest overseas…I now look back at it, like it was a litmus test…
He asked me if a poor person sinned if he went into a store to grab bread to give to his family. I said yes. He replied,“I don’t think I could work with you.”
Well, since then, I have been in a very poor country, conditions were horrendous, people were still having babies. Many died and many lived. I can only imagine how those people survived.
So I think we have to step back and look at the context. Did the poor man who stole the loaf of bread consider to ask for mercy instead to the shopowner? Many turn to begging rather than stealing.
But let us say he did steal for his family…only God can judge and knows the full circumstances. I think such a stealing in this case is a momentary work of passion and hopelessness…and if such people do not have people of faith to witness hope to them, then all the more the Lord is merciful to them.
Likewise, if a poor man is using his conscience to go to all ends to provide for his family, then I would safely assume he has the same conscience to make him aware as well that he is taking away from one person’s hands to take using his own to give to those who have nothing in their hands.
This is a case only God can judge.
He asked me if a poor person sinned if he went into a store to grab bread to give to his family. I said yes. He replied,“I don’t think I could work with you.”
Well, since then, I have been in a very poor country, conditions were horrendous, people were still having babies. Many died and many lived. I can only imagine how those people survived.
So I think we have to step back and look at the context. Did the poor man who stole the loaf of bread consider to ask for mercy instead to the shopowner? Many turn to begging rather than stealing.
But let us say he did steal for his family…only God can judge and knows the full circumstances. I think such a stealing in this case is a momentary work of passion and hopelessness…and if such people do not have people of faith to witness hope to them, then all the more the Lord is merciful to them.
Likewise, if a poor man is using his conscience to go to all ends to provide for his family, then I would safely assume he has the same conscience to make him aware as well that he is taking away from one person’s hands to take using his own to give to those who have nothing in their hands.
This is a case only God can judge.
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KathleenGee
Guest
So, if we say we love God, then like when you love someone, you want to know more about them so you can love them more and better, the same it is for God so you can love Him more and better.
What is pleasing to God and His will? We want to avoid offending Him. Thus it is our duty to open our mind and heart to further educate our conscience.
Willful ignorance can be a sin as well. And that is what the earlier posts were addressing.
John Paul II talked about conscience that resides in the very depth of our temple of the Holy Spirit that lives within each one of us, baptized or not. We were made in the image of God and He has given each one of us something – usually nature – that we can discern His existence and goodness.
What is pleasing to God and His will? We want to avoid offending Him. Thus it is our duty to open our mind and heart to further educate our conscience.
Willful ignorance can be a sin as well. And that is what the earlier posts were addressing.
John Paul II talked about conscience that resides in the very depth of our temple of the Holy Spirit that lives within each one of us, baptized or not. We were made in the image of God and He has given each one of us something – usually nature – that we can discern His existence and goodness.
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larkin31
Guest
I have no objections to this reasoning, but I sure don’t see any “objective Truth” here. Sounds very situational to me, which is exactly what I would expect and hope for.
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larkin31
Guest
“refinement” is not a change?
did you look at the changes to the CC in the definition of lying? It was a clear “change”. Which I don’t mind at all–the newer definition is actually much better.
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PRmerger
Guest
Nope.
Take this example: (and before you object to its not being a “moral judgment”, you’ll have to justify your use of the hot/cold thing. Oh, and the steak example as well.
)Let’s say that I am working in an Emergency Unit and someone brings in a guy who was attacked by a wild animal. That’s all the medical providers need to know at this point. Later, as he recovers he’s able to tell us that the wild animal was a big black female bear. Later on we find that the mama bear had rabies and now the patient needs treatment for that.
See how the story has been refined, but not changed? The initial story: “a guy was attacked by a wild animal” is still true. But now we have more refined info.
Change would be: the guy was actually in a drunken knife fight at a bar.
I asked for the source. I have no idea what you’re talking about right now.
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larkin31
Guest
The story changed the animal.
Sure, if your basic position is that “Some things are sinful” I guess that you will never have to radically alter that statement. Nor would I object to it.
Or. more appropriate to this discussion, “Some theft is sinful; some not.” Again, I would agree, and I would point out that there is no obvious “absolute Truth” or standard evident here. I could not find any “aboslute Truth” evident in the CC on the subject, and when I checked to see if the CC was considered “infallible,” the clear answer was “some of it but not all of it”. It turns out that this position is more like my own on the matter, but not so much like some Catholic posters here have described it. Go figure.
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PRmerger
Guest
A bear is not a wild animal?
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larkin31
Guest
sorry, I meant to delete that part. I addressed your point. Will you respond?A bear is not a wild animal?
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PRmerger
Guest
Here’s my basic position: Every manner of taking and using another’s property unjustly is contrary to the seventh commandment. The injustice committed requires reparation. Commutative justice requires the restitution of stolen goods.
This is true always and for everyone. That is, an “absolute truth”.
Absolutely true!
I think you’re a bit confused about “infallible” and “absolute truth”. Are you under the impression that they’re synonymous?
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larkin31
Guest
All you have said is, basically, “injustice is unjust.” You have simply stated a tautology. And yes, they are by definition true, like “red is red” or “sin is sin.” They are true but empty self-referential statements.
But I appreciate your direct answer.
I also appreciated KathleenGee’s answer, which said, in effect, “We don’t really know but God knows.”
No, I know the distinction.
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tweetymom
Guest
And thanks be to God He knows the difference and our hearts.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Larkin,
The only objective truth is a moral value. It can’t be found in us because we are creatures, we are imperfect, and in a certain sense I can’t define right now…there is indeed a relativism with finite matter.
The only objective truth that has a moral value to it, is Jesus Christ. You should get a copy of John Paul II’s ‘Veritatis Splendor’…the Splendor of Truth…he talks about such issues.
He brings us to the story of the rich young man who sought perfection…he answered the Lord that he followed all the commandments–honoring one’s mother and father, not lying and stealing…the Lord then asked him that to become perfect, to walk in perfection, is to be detached from all things.
The more we are detached from things and ourselves of this earth, the more open our vessels are to live more fully in the Lord’s presence and power. The Holy Father also spoke of how Jesus did not cause him to reflect on the first 3 commandments that pertain only to God. But instead, Jesus pointed to the commandments that deal with our neighbor…God does not need us…but He has made us out of love and to show our love for Jesus, we must love our neighbor…because Jesus stands at that person’s heart, and only the Lord has access to what is truly inside.
A priest told me when he was in the seminary, they spent 5 months on this little encyclical.
I think you are the type to come to the Lord through witness of authentic Christianity, and to witness it, you must see those who are detached from this world, and themselves, who are living and loving through Christ’s life and power. Only in Christ can anything make sense.
The only objective truth is a moral value. It can’t be found in us because we are creatures, we are imperfect, and in a certain sense I can’t define right now…there is indeed a relativism with finite matter.
The only objective truth that has a moral value to it, is Jesus Christ. You should get a copy of John Paul II’s ‘Veritatis Splendor’…the Splendor of Truth…he talks about such issues.
He brings us to the story of the rich young man who sought perfection…he answered the Lord that he followed all the commandments–honoring one’s mother and father, not lying and stealing…the Lord then asked him that to become perfect, to walk in perfection, is to be detached from all things.
The more we are detached from things and ourselves of this earth, the more open our vessels are to live more fully in the Lord’s presence and power. The Holy Father also spoke of how Jesus did not cause him to reflect on the first 3 commandments that pertain only to God. But instead, Jesus pointed to the commandments that deal with our neighbor…God does not need us…but He has made us out of love and to show our love for Jesus, we must love our neighbor…because Jesus stands at that person’s heart, and only the Lord has access to what is truly inside.
A priest told me when he was in the seminary, they spent 5 months on this little encyclical.
I think you are the type to come to the Lord through witness of authentic Christianity, and to witness it, you must see those who are detached from this world, and themselves, who are living and loving through Christ’s life and power. Only in Christ can anything make sense.
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larkin31
Guest
Thanks, Kathleen, for what I read as a very loving and sincere reply to me. I do consider things like you say here, and other religions take similar positions regarding detatchment and perfection.
I, for one, however, am not seeking detachment from life in this world, nor do I consider that purpose particularly healthy except as a way of preparing to die. When that comes nearer for me, I may well seek that kind of detachment. In the meantime, I would rather choose to live and roll in the splendor of the created material world. I don’t have to own it or possess it, but I am mad for contact and the sharing of that contact with others.
Is there a church for that?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Well, I found it with the SE Italians. They are very earthy people. I use Google translator, Italian to English and for what it is worth, how they describe life and issues, are deeply poetic and humane people with a giusto for life!
When I came back home, I told my grandmother i was no longer an American Catholic but a Roman Catholic…literally. She didn’t get it at first. Very upset. But I privately decided from then on I was a Latinist.
It is too heady and intellectual for me…I am joining the Franciscans who have contact with everybody, especially Italy.
The Carmelites, Dominicans look to the Ascent to God…the purgative, illuminative way to finally the unitive way—total union with God and you…all in love.
The Franciscans go in the opposite direction…they take the Descent…all the way – but not to hell, but to the feet of Christ – our neighbor and serve him in our neighbor, and see God reflected in all of God’s creation.
When I came back home, I told my grandmother i was no longer an American Catholic but a Roman Catholic…literally. She didn’t get it at first. Very upset. But I privately decided from then on I was a Latinist.
It is too heady and intellectual for me…I am joining the Franciscans who have contact with everybody, especially Italy.
The Carmelites, Dominicans look to the Ascent to God…the purgative, illuminative way to finally the unitive way—total union with God and you…all in love.
The Franciscans go in the opposite direction…they take the Descent…all the way – but not to hell, but to the feet of Christ – our neighbor and serve him in our neighbor, and see God reflected in all of God’s creation.
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larkin31
Guest
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KathleenGee
Guest
May be you should find some teachings and stories about St. Francis of Assisi. His "Little Flowers of St. Francis’ are from the heart and soul of an innocent, and with so much humor. I laughed alot at the stories…true ones.
He called the sun and moon and all creatures, as well as the earth, water, and sky his brothers and sisters. The animals loved him…there is a story of the wolf of Gubbio…
Have you ever heard of him? He is the person replicated in the statues you see in garden shops…a monk wearing a habit holding a bird…St. Joseph carries Baby Jesus or holds a long stem lily, representing his chastity in caring for the Holy Family.
Yes…St. Francis may be able to show you more on a different level…his detachment brings one into the kingdom of Christ…you don’t have much but you are so integrated with the world around you. At Christmas, during the night, St. Francis asked all the people to come. He made a little stable. And there in the straw was a little statue of Baby Jesus. When the people came, he personified the Christ Child in the statue, and picked it up and with great solemnity brought it to the people to touch.
My Franciscan friend sent me a picture from Christmas with the sentiment of an Italian…the school children were surrounding the infant Jesus personified in the statue…and all these hands formed like a pyramid around him…so that the tallest reach of hands were near the top…I would like to turn it into a Christmas card.
PM and I will try to email it to you.
He called the sun and moon and all creatures, as well as the earth, water, and sky his brothers and sisters. The animals loved him…there is a story of the wolf of Gubbio…
Have you ever heard of him? He is the person replicated in the statues you see in garden shops…a monk wearing a habit holding a bird…St. Joseph carries Baby Jesus or holds a long stem lily, representing his chastity in caring for the Holy Family.
Yes…St. Francis may be able to show you more on a different level…his detachment brings one into the kingdom of Christ…you don’t have much but you are so integrated with the world around you. At Christmas, during the night, St. Francis asked all the people to come. He made a little stable. And there in the straw was a little statue of Baby Jesus. When the people came, he personified the Christ Child in the statue, and picked it up and with great solemnity brought it to the people to touch.
My Franciscan friend sent me a picture from Christmas with the sentiment of an Italian…the school children were surrounding the infant Jesus personified in the statue…and all these hands formed like a pyramid around him…so that the tallest reach of hands were near the top…I would like to turn it into a Christmas card.
PM and I will try to email it to you.
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PRmerger
Guest
I see.
Perhaps, then, you should have also deleted these other postings which, although not as egregiously ridiculous as “The story changed the animal”, clearly fall into the same “grasping at straws” response.
-After you gave your hot/cold example, you responded:
We were discussing “ethics” and “sin”
I’m pretty sure hot/cold does not fall into the “ethics” and “sin” category.
and
-you claimed that a fruit can be good and bad, at the same time. A fruit!
“Again, the question was, can something be both bad and good at the same time. The answer is YES–like that fruit in the Garden” :whacky:
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PRmerger
Guest
No, Larkin. This would be a tautology: “Stealing is wrong because it is theft”.
This is an insightful true statement:
Every manner of taking and using another’s property unjustly is contrary to the seventh commandment. The injustice committed requires reparation. Commutative justice requires the restitution of stolen goods. CCC2454
[SIGN]This is true always and for everyone. That is, an “absolute truth”.[/SIGN]
Great. Then you see that bringing up the Catechism and what parts of it are infallible teaching is a non sequitor and has nothing to do with our dialogue here.
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