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L
LMW
Guest
Well… is it? Has anyone done the research so we can know for sure whether it is or isn’t?
I think that there is a tendency to want to stick so loyaly to what we have always believed that we risk not seeing the forrest for the trees.
If the origins are pagan, I want to know. And if there is information in scripture that says that Christmas is something we should all be celebrating, I want to know that too… or if it indicates that God disapproves of it- that is also good to know.
I would not be willing to stick to a belief- just because it is Catholic- if the bible indicated it was wrong. That would be placing my thinking in opposition to God would it not?
I think that there is a tendency to want to stick so loyaly to what we have always believed that we risk not seeing the forrest for the trees.
If the origins are pagan, I want to know. And if there is information in scripture that says that Christmas is something we should all be celebrating, I want to know that too… or if it indicates that God disapproves of it- that is also good to know.
I would not be willing to stick to a belief- just because it is Catholic- if the bible indicated it was wrong. That would be placing my thinking in opposition to God would it not?
R
rr1213
Guest
I’d say “some” as opposed to “many”. I also think that one of the key reasons that some don’t is based on the concept that they do not wish to treat one day as more important than another…all days are given by God. I think that Scripture provides them with the Christian liberty to take that stance, not that its a stance I would support. Believe me, the vast majority of Protestants celebrate Christmas, and Easter, and various seasons of the Church.
V
valient_Lucy
Guest
Several things. There is no Catholic belief that is contradicted by the Bible. The Bible is silent on the observence of Christmas. It does not command it, but it does not fobid it either.
Also, even if December 25th was a pagan holiday, so what? Our God is not a destroyer, but a redeemer! If something (or someone) has been tarnished by sin, he makes it (or him) holy! That is what the Redemption is all about about. God restores the world to what it should be, so that “heaven and earth are full of God’s glory.” To take a pagan holiday, like Christmas, and chage the reason for the holiday seems to me to be something very Christlike, to take something that was secular and make it sacred and holy.
If a person truly appreciates the Incarnation as a great gift of God, they will want to celebrate this fact all the more! After all, Scripture calls us to rejoyce, and to “boast” about the work of Christ.
L
LMW
Guest
I am still researching.
I did find what appears, to me, to be a contradiction between the bible and Catholic teachings. It is possible that I have somehow misunderstood… but I welcome anyone who can help me understand how this applies in Catholicism because it leaves me confused.
1 Timothy chapter 3.
I will continue to research…
I did find what appears, to me, to be a contradiction between the bible and Catholic teachings. It is possible that I have somehow misunderstood… but I welcome anyone who can help me understand how this applies in Catholicism because it leaves me confused.
1 Timothy chapter 3.
I will continue to research…
K
kellie
Guest
I never understand the argument for Sola Scriptura.
Maybe because I am way too logical with my thinking.
From what I always hear from people who believe in it is if it isn’t written then it can’t be done or it isn’t true.
So they don’t celebrate Christmas as the date of December 25th isn’t in Scripture, and Jesus and the Apostles never celebrated the Birth of Christ either.
So they don’t celebrate their own birthdays either (meaning JWs) as that is somehow pagan too.
So they don’t believe in eggs and rabbits at Easter, as they are some sort of weird pagan belief, or they aren’t in Scripture.
The problem with this logic is this.
Why aren’t they all wearing sandals, hessian sacks, and long hair?
Why aren’t they all travelling via donkey?
Nowhere in Scripture does it say to drive a car, get a haircut regularly, use deodorant, make artificial fabric for clothes, use the Internet, electricity, telephones, or get a manicure.
But we all do (well maybe not the manicure, hmmm, I wish I didn’t bite my nails).
The point is, none of these things we do in 2006 contradict Scripture and neither does celebrating the Birth of Christ and including with it such decorations as trees.
Easter does not contradict Scripture either, and neither do eggs or bunnies, they simply are visual reminders of Easter being upon us.
They may have been pagan once, but we aren’t using them paganly(?).
The Birth of Christ, and His Ressurection are so important to us that as humans, we feel the need to celebrate them.
St Peter and others may have too. It just wasn’t written. Neither was every time they burped, coughed, or used the bathroom. (And no, I am not saying these bodily functions are more important or an equal to the Birth).
Anyway that is my opinion on the whole Sola Scriptura. It just isn’t logical, and logic is a wonder from God that we all have access to within our minds.
Maybe because I am way too logical with my thinking.
From what I always hear from people who believe in it is if it isn’t written then it can’t be done or it isn’t true.
So they don’t celebrate Christmas as the date of December 25th isn’t in Scripture, and Jesus and the Apostles never celebrated the Birth of Christ either.
So they don’t celebrate their own birthdays either (meaning JWs) as that is somehow pagan too.
So they don’t believe in eggs and rabbits at Easter, as they are some sort of weird pagan belief, or they aren’t in Scripture.
The problem with this logic is this.
Why aren’t they all wearing sandals, hessian sacks, and long hair?
Why aren’t they all travelling via donkey?
Nowhere in Scripture does it say to drive a car, get a haircut regularly, use deodorant, make artificial fabric for clothes, use the Internet, electricity, telephones, or get a manicure.
But we all do (well maybe not the manicure, hmmm, I wish I didn’t bite my nails).
The point is, none of these things we do in 2006 contradict Scripture and neither does celebrating the Birth of Christ and including with it such decorations as trees.
Easter does not contradict Scripture either, and neither do eggs or bunnies, they simply are visual reminders of Easter being upon us.
They may have been pagan once, but we aren’t using them paganly(?).
The Birth of Christ, and His Ressurection are so important to us that as humans, we feel the need to celebrate them.
St Peter and others may have too. It just wasn’t written. Neither was every time they burped, coughed, or used the bathroom. (And no, I am not saying these bodily functions are more important or an equal to the Birth).
Anyway that is my opinion on the whole Sola Scriptura. It just isn’t logical, and logic is a wonder from God that we all have access to within our minds.
L
LMW
Guest
There is a hole in the logic that you present.
Driving a car, riding a donkey and wearing deoderant are not matters that pertain to our worship of God… Where as, observing easter, Christmas and the like do pertain to the worship of God.
It is apples and oranges
Driving a car, riding a donkey and wearing deoderant are not matters that pertain to our worship of God… Where as, observing easter, Christmas and the like do pertain to the worship of God.
It is apples and oranges
S
Steadfast
Guest
Because Sola Scriptura doesn’t mean the church can’t cherish good and godly traditions.
L
LMW
Guest
If we are to take the bible as being instruction from God and if it contains His thoughts, then it does not really matter if you or I consider the celebration of our own birthdays as self worship. What matters is whether or not God considers it a form of self worship.
Further, it does not matter if you or I think that celebrating Christmas or any other holiday is ok- or “pagan” or whatever. What matters is what God thinks. If he thinks that it is wrong- then it is. And it really means nothing if you or I disagree with him. In the end, he decides our fate.
All I am saying is lets not jut cover our ears and close our eyes and not even entertain the possiblity that we could be wrong. If we are right- Great!- then we will be even more sure that we have God’s approval. And if we are wrong- then we would surely want to know- because it might mean that we do not have God’s approval at all.
Is there an error to that logic? The bible seems to support it- Isa 48:17,18; 2*Timothy 3:16,*17
Further, it does not matter if you or I think that celebrating Christmas or any other holiday is ok- or “pagan” or whatever. What matters is what God thinks. If he thinks that it is wrong- then it is. And it really means nothing if you or I disagree with him. In the end, he decides our fate.
All I am saying is lets not jut cover our ears and close our eyes and not even entertain the possiblity that we could be wrong. If we are right- Great!- then we will be even more sure that we have God’s approval. And if we are wrong- then we would surely want to know- because it might mean that we do not have God’s approval at all.
Is there an error to that logic? The bible seems to support it- Isa 48:17,18; 2*Timothy 3:16,*17
K
kellie
Guest
I don’t know what religion you are, but my question is, going by what you just said, how do you know that the form of worship you do celebrate, such as the Catholic Mass isn’t wrong and not to God’s liking?
Sure we consecrate the bread and wine like Jesus told us to, but how do we know that the order of Mass is what God wanted.
Your logic is now flawed.
S
Steadfast
Guest
There is something to be said for the idea of a living church.
We’re not babies tied to our momma. We have some liberty and competence to do some things.
Sure we have God’s Word to guide us, but it’s not an absolutely meticulous series of decrees. There is a lot of room for movement within the prescription.
Creativity is good, human creativity is an aspect of the image of God in us, when we practice it to His glory and we celebrate things like Christmas and so on, we give him glory.
And frankly, the Bible doesn’t say anything against brithdays or Christmas.
L
LMW
Guest
Ok- I have done a bunch of searching and researching and if anyone in interested to see some scripture about this subject, here is what I have so far.
In the 10 commandments (Ex 20:3,4) it says: "You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God”
And there is an interesting parallel to exactly what we are talking about here. When Moses was being given the 10 commandments, Aaron and the Israelites took a Pagan festival and re-named it for the LORD (Ex 32:3-6). If Christmas or Easter are originally Pagan, and then were re-named to make them Christian-- then it is the same thing. Here is what God said about the Israelites worshipping the golden calf that they claimed they were celebrating a festival to in God’s name: " And the Lord said to Moses, "Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ " And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them.” (Ex 32:7-10)
Does that sound like God was happy with them?
Jesus actually spoke against following man made traditions:
Mat 15:6-9 "Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ "
And Jesus was very clear that not everyone who thought they were Christians would have his approval- he said only the ones who did the will of God would.
Mat 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
So it would seem that if Christmas and Easter are really biblical - we have nothing to worry about. But if they were originally “pagan”- then it would seem that God would view that the same as when the Israelites made the golden calf and that would place us with those that Jesus would call those “who practice lawlessness”
In the 10 commandments (Ex 20:3,4) it says: "You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God”
And there is an interesting parallel to exactly what we are talking about here. When Moses was being given the 10 commandments, Aaron and the Israelites took a Pagan festival and re-named it for the LORD (Ex 32:3-6). If Christmas or Easter are originally Pagan, and then were re-named to make them Christian-- then it is the same thing. Here is what God said about the Israelites worshipping the golden calf that they claimed they were celebrating a festival to in God’s name: " And the Lord said to Moses, "Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ " And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them.” (Ex 32:7-10)
Does that sound like God was happy with them?
Jesus actually spoke against following man made traditions:
Mat 15:6-9 "Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ "
And Jesus was very clear that not everyone who thought they were Christians would have his approval- he said only the ones who did the will of God would.
Mat 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
So it would seem that if Christmas and Easter are really biblical - we have nothing to worry about. But if they were originally “pagan”- then it would seem that God would view that the same as when the Israelites made the golden calf and that would place us with those that Jesus would call those “who practice lawlessness”
A
AlegreFe
Guest
Christ’s Incarnation is not at Christmas. We Catholics have a prayer called The Angelus where we proclaim the incarnation of Jesus Christ. And believe me, it’s not at Christmas time.
V. The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary,
R. And she conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Hail Mary, full of grace
the Lord is with Thee.
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death. Amen
V. Behold the handmaid of the Lord,
R. Be it done unto me according to Thy word.
Hail Mary…
V. And the Word was made flesh,
(bow your head)->R. And dwelt among us.
Hail Mary…
V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God,
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray
Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord,
Thy grace into our hearts,
that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ, Thy Son,
was made known by the message of an angel,
may by His passion and cross be brought
to the glory of His resurrection.
Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
The incarnation of Jesus Christ was when Mary gave her Fiat and the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and Jesus was conceived. Life begins at conception not at someone’s birth when they are actually born into this world.
Yes I celebrate Christmas!
Merry Christmas!! I dare not say “Happy Holidays.” 
You make a lot of sense.
So that goes to show that there are a lot of things “Catholic” that are not straight from the Bible only. But they are certainly part of God’s Word as God’s Word is not limited to the “written word” in the Bible. God’s Word was preached and taught to the people. It wasn’t “read” to them and books were not passed out to the people; most of them could not even read.25 There are also many other things that Jesus did,
but if these were to be described individually, I do not
think the whole world would contain the books that
would be written. John 21:25
Jesus did not write one word on a page for it to be passed out. The only words he actually wrote from what we know from scripture was when he wrote on the sand to the men who were trying to “punish” Mary Magdeline.
A
AlegreFe
Guest
God did not become man at the “birth” of Christ. You provided a link and you didn’t even read it yourself.
Incarnation Christianity The doctrine that the Son of God
was conceived in the womb of Mary and that Jesus is true
God and true man.
R
rr1213
Guest
Conception, that’s fine. The point is that the incarnation is the miracle (stunning if you think about it) of the Almighty God of the Universe becoming Man for our sake…to save his creation from the sin that it had chosen. Where would we be without the incarnation?..in just as hopeless a position as we would be without the Resurrection. Thank God…literally…that we have both.
L
LMW
Guest
The good news is that we all have the God given free will to accept the bible or not. We all have the option to choose to take the bible as really being from God or not- and it is between each of us and God… ultimately.
For those curious about the bible’s views, the Apostle Paul encouraged Christians to pay some attention to learning what was acceptable to the Lord-
Eph 5:8-11 says: “Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit* is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”
Well- my searches on the origins of Christmas indicate that:
Regarding Christmas:
"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the “birthdays” of the gods. "— The New Catholic Encyclopedia
"“For two centuries after Christ’s birth, no one knew, and few people cared, exactly when he was born.”—*Sacred Origins of Profound Things *
Early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.” —The World Book Encyclopedia
Regarding Easter:
“A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. ... The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”—*The Catholic Encyclopedia *
"“There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”—*The Encyclopædia Britannica *
So, aparently the origins are not Christian, or biblical but indeed, Pagan.
For those curious about the bible’s views, the Apostle Paul encouraged Christians to pay some attention to learning what was acceptable to the Lord-
Eph 5:8-11 says: “Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit* is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”
Well- my searches on the origins of Christmas indicate that:
Regarding Christmas:
"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the “birthdays” of the gods. "— The New Catholic Encyclopedia
"“For two centuries after Christ’s birth, no one knew, and few people cared, exactly when he was born.”—*Sacred Origins of Profound Things *
Early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.” —The World Book Encyclopedia
Regarding Easter:
“A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. ... The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”—*The Catholic Encyclopedia *
"“There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”—*The Encyclopædia Britannica *
So, aparently the origins are not Christian, or biblical but indeed, Pagan.
T
tequilamac
Guest
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