Why do some Catholics support "Gay Marriage"

[ThinkingSapien]

It wasn’t the first; marriage had always been used to pool families’ wealth and secure political alliances before, during, and after the advent of Christianity.

"There have been many different things written and said about marriage. From the sweetly inspirational to the hilariously cynical. What many of them have in common is that they sound like they express a universal and timeless truth. When in fact nearly everything about marriage from it’s main purpose, to the kind of relationships that it covers, to the rights and responsibilities involved has varied greatly between different eras, cultures, and social classes. So let’s take a quick look at the evolution of marriage…] "

See the rest here:

youtube.com/watch?v=ZZZ6QB5TSfk

 

[TCEL]

Often, the answer I’m hearing is “why not?”

 

[Nacho45]

Often, the answer I’m hearing is “why not?”

The answer to that question is easy.

 

[djames99]

Or, have replaced true compassion and ideals for false ones.
,

When the Church has decided on a DeFide teaching, all future assessment ceases. The degree of a person’s belief is substantiated by how much he is obedient and adheres to it’s doctrine. The Church is not a democracy.

 

[Edward_H]

We must seek everyone’s greatest good, which is Divine union with God, not just in the hereafter, but today, now.

Homosexual sex goes against God’s designed purpose for our bodies, it must therefore be against God’s will, and to engage in such activity is to distance oneself from God, which is not in the true end or good of those people who do so.

Momentary pleasures, comforts, desires aside, as with drug addictions, they are not always working toward our greatest good…despite what “we want” to do.

 

[TEPO]

Wishful lust is not a good notion for life guidance. It just goes to show how out-of-line our society is. So from where does the problem stem? I’d imagine it stems from having everything handed to us on a silver platter. When your coffee brews itself, and your car gets 100 miles a gallon, and you work in an office organizing papers, and your paycheck gets directly deposited into your account, and your bills are on auto-pay, and the only real work you have left to do is eat and shower -I suppose ones mind starts to wander.

Yep, our way of life is off track… So let’s Americanize the world so we can all fall down together as one.

We must begin enlighten the East with our materialism and unify.

 

[innertide]

Human pride and selfishness will always drive questions into God’s word. When Jesus gave us His definition of marriage in the Gospel…in His own words…He actually was quite clear. “Man and woman”.

It takes a dose of pride to drive a question into that.

not pride, or selfishness, just common sense that trumps the glorious an infalliable mysticism that God allows the Church to interprit to what ever suits their needs to protect what ever little power they think they have.

 

[TEPO]

not pride, or selfishness, just common sense that trumps the glorious an infalliable mysticism that God allows the Church to interprit to what ever suits their needs to protect what ever little power they think they have.

so they say, so they say… Though there is no power in the Church. The battle you imagine taking place is just progressivism trying to overshadow reality… But progress cannot change what tradition does not give it -therefore progress is a mockery. A fraud.

 

[innertide]

so they say, so they say… Though there is no power in the Church. The battle you imagine taking place is just progressivism trying to overshadow reality… But progress cannot change what tradition does not give it -therefore progress is a mockery. A fraud.

it isn’t progress either, it is what it is, God made man in His Image, to then limit that image and say oops sorry really God only made love for men and women is just trying to put limits to what God has already established, when what people think of God doesn’t fit nicely packaged into what the Church teaches then all these other rules pop up to try an explain why the Church is right on the matter. Their isn’t anything " wrong " with homosexuals, and what is even more hysterical, the church is more than willing to acknowledge heterosexuals who are related to some degree to thus allow them to marry and have children… it is hypocrisy with no end. Two humans who are of the same gender are not permitted to enter into marriage but Two people who are of the opposite sex and are of the same blood line are.

Then we see endless threads on here of should i attend my ( what ever relation or friendship to the family ) homosexual wedding and how to avoid it or get out of going, yet, where are all the threads of oh joy my cousins are getting married.

and then but but but but but follows for a response to that,

what it is , is sayings sorry you are less of a human being because you are of a different sexual orientation , but to add more hypocrisy to all of this, the Church allows men who are of SSA or flat out homosexual based upon the approval of a Bishop to either enter into the seminary or flat out become ordained.

So exactly how are people not to be confused on the issue and in turn are supposed to believe the elites of the Church on what they claim to be what God intended when they can not even attempt at coming close to the truth of why homosexuals have existed since the time of the Romans if not earlier.

and in the end all as good catholics we are supposed to do is follow blindly, ask no questions, hold our breath till we are blue in the face and beat our proud chests and point to this doctrine or this dogma or what ever. get real.

Homosexuals marrying is not going to interfere with my life, the way i breath, eat, think, pray, shop, dress, mow the lawn, walk the dog, nothing.

Though the problem again is homosexuals want special rights for being homosexual, and that is where i stop. At some point the line has to be drawn, if the homosexual couple wants a child well then they should take a long look at the sexual organs they have an think about why they cant have children. and not blame society for not allowing them to adopt a child.

There isn’t anything progressive about any of this and to label it as such is just to make oneself feel better because they cant acknowledge that the Church and the elites of the church are too thick headed to budge on anything and admit when they are wrong or possibly just do not know everything they think they know. Just because they have an education, a title, a robe and and office doesn’t bring them any closer to what God has actually etched into our soul ,heart and minds. An to thus shove that in the face of the Church is insulting because it challenges everything that gives the Church its illusion of power over society.

We need a place to pray and worship Christ and God we don’t need the Church to meddle in on everything else in our lives when the Church is so full of pride to even acknowledge their own mistakes when they make them instead of waiting to be embarressed in the media.

:coffeeread: ( and ya got to love the lil emoticons to try and display a sense of ah ha i proved you wrong sir, an thus i win , look at me i won )

 

[TEPO]

it isn’t progress either, it is what it is, God made man in His Image, to then limit that image and say oops sorry really God only made love for men and women is just trying to put limits to what God has already established, when what people think of God doesn’t fit nicely packaged into what the Church teaches then all these other rules pop up to try an explain why the Church is right on the matter. Their isn’t anything " wrong " with homosexuals, and what is even more hysterical, the church is more than willing to acknowledge heterosexuals who are related to some degree to thus allow them to marry and have children… it is hypocrisy with no end. Two humans who are of the same gender are not permitted to enter into marriage but Two people who are of the opposite sex and are of the same blood line are.

Then we see endless threads on here of should i attend my ( what ever relation or friendship to the family ) homosexual wedding and how to avoid it or get out of going, yet, where are all the threads of oh joy my cousins are getting married.

and then but but but but but follows for a response to that,

what it is , is sayings sorry you are less of a human being because you are of a different sexual orientation , but to add more hypocrisy to all of this, the Church allows men who are of SSA or flat out homosexual based upon the approval of a Bishop to either enter into the seminary or flat out become ordained.

So exactly how are people not to be confused on the issue and in turn are supposed to believe the elites of the Church on what they claim to be what God intended when they can not even attempt at coming close to the truth of why homosexuals have existed since the time of the Romans if not earlier.

and in the end all as good catholics we are supposed to do is follow blindly, ask no questions, hold our breath till we are blue in the face and beat our proud chests and point to this doctrine or this dogma or what ever. get real.

Homosexuals marrying is not going to interfere with my life, the way i breath, eat, think, pray, shop, dress, mow the lawn, walk the dog, nothing.

Though the problem again is homosexuals want special rights for being homosexual, and that is where i stop. At some point the line has to be drawn, if the homosexual couple wants a child well then they should take a long look at the sexual organs they have an think about why they cant have children. and not blame society for not allowing them to adopt a child.

There isn’t anything progressive about any of this and to label it as such is just to make oneself feel better because they cant acknowledge that the Church and the elites of the church are too thick headed to budge on anything and admit when they are wrong or possibly just do not know everything they think they know. Just because they have an education, a title, a robe and and office doesn’t bring them any closer to what God has actually etched into our soul ,heart and minds. An to thus shove that in the face of the Church is insulting because it challenges everything that gives the Church its illusion of power over society.

We need a place to pray and worship Christ and God we don’t need the Church to meddle in on everything else in our lives when the Church is so full of pride to even acknowledge their own mistakes when they make them instead of waiting to be embarressed in the media.

:coffeeread: ( and ya got to love the lil emoticons to try and display a sense of ah ha i proved you wrong sir, an thus i win , look at me i won )

You sound like someone raised Catholic, who now questions Church teaching -is this correct?

…Also, the Catholic stance revolves around the Natural Law, which represents that in nature, sexual relations are meant to be between a man and a woman. IOW, for two men to have relations is opposed to nature. do you agree with this at least -being that reproduction is the purpose of the sex act?

 

[JimG]

Though the problem again is homosexuals want special rights for being homosexual, and that is where i stop. At some point the line has to be drawn, if the homosexual couple wants a child well then they should take a long look at the sexual organs they have an think about why they cant have children. and not blame society for not allowing them to adopt a child.

This is where you stop? I’m afraid that line has already been crossed. Catholic adoption agencies have already had to close because they refused to place children with homosexual couples. They cannot comply with that because it would be a disservice to the children, a form of child abuse. So you may stop there. But the homosexual lobby won’t.

 

[innertide]

This is where you stop? I’m afraid that line has already been crossed. Catholic adoption agencies have already had to close because they refused to place children with homosexual couples. They cannot comply with that because it would be a disservice to the children, a form of child abuse. So you may stop there. But the homosexual lobby won’t.

And ?

That just shows weakness on those Catholic adoption agencies for caving in an closing up because some homosexual lobby pitched a fit, there are loopholes and ways around everything , those adoption agencies could have moved some paper work around re worded what ever their agency was or a number of other things. The line keeps being crossed because people do not stand up and fight back. Yet there is the problem the homosexual community thinking just because they are homosexual all of a sudden there are all these special rights just for them. and it isn’t the case at all. Since the homosexual community doesn’t listen to reason they are just left with having to take what they can get.

There are a few states that do allow homosexuals to marry, and instead of pitching a tent an complaining that not all states allow it they could just move to those states that do allow it an be done with the thing.

but whatever.

And i agree that Natural Law is a label used by the Church to end all arguements that they can no longer rationally debate or hold a stance on and forget the rest of the points that i already pointed out in regards to the hypocrisy the Church shows towards homosexuals.

See that is the problem with the way the Church uses this idea of " natural law " that is the answer for the Church until they start to pick and choose which homosexuals are okay.

its okay to be homosexaul if you dont act on your homosexual tendices , or its okay to be homosexaul as long as you go to confession more often than heterosexuals, and it is natural law this an natural law that.

it is beyond convoluted, and i for one do not blame homosexuals for not trusting the catholic church with the convoluted mixed messages it keeps sending on top of the way congregations not only treat each other in cliques of higher archies with in a parish let alone someone with some kind of SSA struggling to find out how to go about finding Christ with in his or her on life only to be told he or she is not good enough as a basic human being.

Just look at the threads here on how everything in regards to homsexuals is wrapped around the idea that there is some kind of deformaty , something is either spiritually wrong with that person, or what ever. It isn’t a disscussion of hey remember we are Christians first and that we need to treat every single person as a child of God and or a brother or sister of Christ.

Nope the undertone is wooo that poor homosexual, lets pray that his or her soul doesnt burn in hell forever because he or she is the way God made him or her in HIS image and likeness. Now God doesn’t make mistakes, yet no one wants to even entertain the notion that perhaps God is not limited by the idea of love confined to reproduction only.

we all have love in different forms, and not always is LOVE assosicated with having to reproduce. That is the entire concept of this natural law, that if there is a relationship of a sexual matter it can only be for the purpose of reproduction, which if we were to believe that then, that would have to suggest that everyone is taught that to begin with. And it isn’t.

But when it comes time to debate Natural Law is tossed about like anyone even pays attention to that notion in a class room. Could you imagine in a public school someone trying to teach just the concept of natural law in a sex ed class.

and kudos to everyone skipping over how related cousins who are heterosexual are more than acceptable to married with in the church versus homosexuals.

i would go to a homosexual wedding any day of the week before i went to a heterosexaul related cousins wedding. I would be more embarressed for a family that had cousins marrying than i would be ashamed or embarressed for two people of the same sex.

Homosexual intercourse which leads to no reproduction or blood related cousins having children … I couldn’t be around the couple of the same blood line with children .

But what ever lets just keep ostrasizing the homosexual community and making their lives harder and wondering how hard we should pray for them as they are damned to hell for their sexual orientation, forget everything Christ taught people with a grain of common sense in their head. Lets just keep following what ever anyone tells us that sounds like what we want to hear.

And hurray for the homosexual community who are just as thick headed to not conciede to other peoples ideals an morals either.

 

[TEPO]

And ?

That just shows weakness on those Catholic adoption agencies for caving in an closing up because some homosexual lobby pitched a fit, there are loopholes and ways around everything , those adoption agencies could have moved some paper work around re worded what ever their agency was or a number of other things. The line keeps being crossed because people do not stand up and fight back. Yet there is the problem the homosexual community thinking just because they are homosexual all of a sudden there are all these special rights just for them. and it isn’t the case at all. Since the homosexual community doesn’t listen to reason they are just left with having to take what they can get.

There are a few states that do allow homosexuals to marry, and instead of pitching a tent an complaining that not all states allow it they could just move to those states that do allow it an be done with the thing.

but whatever.

And i agree that Natural Law is a label used by the Church to end all arguements that they can no longer rationally debate or hold a stance on and forget the rest of the points that i already pointed out in regards to the hypocrisy the Church shows towards homosexuals.

See that is the problem with the way the Church uses this idea of " natural law " that is the answer for the Church until they start to pick and choose which homosexuals are okay.

its okay to be homosexaul if you dont act on your homosexual tendices , or its okay to be homosexaul as long as you go to confession more often than heterosexuals, and it is natural law this an natural law that.

it is beyond convoluted, and i for one do not blame homosexuals for not trusting the catholic church with the convoluted mixed messages it keeps sending on top of the way congregations not only treat each other in cliques of higher archies with in a parish let alone someone with some kind of SSA struggling to find out how to go about finding Christ with in his or her on life only to be told he or she is not good enough as a basic human being.

Just look at the threads here on how everything in regards to homsexuals is wrapped around the idea that there is some kind of deformaty , something is either spiritually wrong with that person, or what ever. It isn’t a disscussion of hey remember we are Christians first and that we need to treat every single person as a child of God and or a brother or sister of Christ.

Nope the undertone is wooo that poor homosexual, lets pray that his or her soul doesnt burn in hell forever because he or she is the way God made him or her in HIS image and likeness. Now God doesn’t make mistakes, yet no one wants to even entertain the notion that perhaps God is not limited by the idea of love confined to reproduction only.

we all have love in different forms, and not always is LOVE assosicated with having to reproduce. That is the entire concept of this natural law, that if there is a relationship of a sexual matter it can only be for the purpose of reproduction, which if we were to believe that then, that would have to suggest that everyone is taught that to begin with. And it isn’t.

But when it comes time to debate Natural Law is tossed about like anyone even pays attention to that notion in a class room. Could you imagine in a public school someone trying to teach just the concept of natural law in a sex ed class.

and kudos to everyone skipping over how related cousins who are heterosexual are more than acceptable to married with in the church versus homosexuals.

i would go to a homosexual wedding any day of the week before i went to a heterosexaul related cousins wedding. I would be more embarressed for a family that had cousins marrying than i would be ashamed or embarressed for two people of the same sex.

Homosexual intercourse which leads to no reproduction or blood related cousins having children … I couldn’t be around the couple of the same blood line with children .

But what ever lets just keep ostrasizing the homosexual community and making their lives harder and wondering how hard we should pray for them as they are damned to hell for their sexual orientation, forget everything Christ taught people with a grain of common sense in their head. Lets just keep following what ever anyone tells us that sounds like what we want to hear.

And hurray for the homosexual community who are just as thick headed to not conciede to other peoples ideals an morals either.

You know, the Catholic Church is not going to lie. They’re not going to shuffle papers around looking for loopholes with adoption agencies. Geez, you act as if were the mafia. And I feel like you’re not responding fairly to the Natural Law reason I gave -calling it a “label to end arguments”… If you can’t be fair to yourself, by even attempting to understand, then you’re not going to be able to be fair in your dealings.

…also, your posts are too long, which to me suggests that you’re dancing around the truth, trying to fabricate something -possibly for your own amusement. I’m not here for amusement. I’m here for the hard core truth.

Peace,
TEPO

 

[JimG]

You know, the Catholic Church is not going to lie. They’re not going to shuffle papers around looking for loopholes with adoption agencies. Geez, you act as if were the mafia. And I feel like you’re not responding fairly to the Natural Law reason I gave -calling it a “label to end arguments”… If you can’t be fair to yourself, by even attempting to understand, then you’re not going to be able to be fair in your dealings.

…also, your posts are too long, which to me suggests that you’re dancing around the truth, trying to fabricate something -possibly for your own amusement. I’m not here for amusement. I’m here for the hard core truth.

Peace,
TEPO

Shuffling papers would have done the Catholic adoption agency no good. They had to accept gay adoption as a matter of non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. There was no loophole available. This is going to be happening more and more often. Catholic agencies will be required to forego their religion or go out of business. Caesar will have his incense. One must worship the state’s idols or else.

 

[innertide]

You know, the Catholic Church is not going to lie. They’re not going to shuffle papers around looking for loopholes with adoption agencies. Geez, you act as if were the mafia. And I feel like you’re not responding fairly to the Natural Law reason I gave -calling it a “label to end arguments”… If you can’t be fair to yourself, by even attempting to understand, then you’re not going to be able to be fair in your dealings.

…also, your posts are too long, which to me suggests that you’re dancing around the truth, trying to fabricate something -possibly for your own amusement. I’m not here for amusement. I’m here for the hard core truth.

Peace,
TEPO

pft my posts are long because i have plenty to say, it isnt my problem that you dont like long responses. and im not fabricating anything that is a poor response to a debate you cant handle, im not trying to change anyones mind on anything, and i find it futile for anyone on either side to try and change anyones mind either. its a no win discussion and a pointless one and it is a fair answer i gave, it is exactly what it is a label to end arguements. its either that or just tell people because i said so, or say because the church says so an leave it at that.

why try to rationalize the debate, the homosexaul community wants too much, you dont like reading long responses, and the church is not going to conciede to anything ever let alone stop sending mixed signals, if ya need me to clarify anything else, just re read my " long responses " for the answers you seek.

I know what the Church is about and I just don’t feel that as a catholic i need to treat homosexuals as lesser people. and I wont, i will keep going with what Christ has taught me through the Church and ignore what the Church thinks is the solid and final law on anything that keeps popping up in their heads. so no im not dancing around anything, it ist my fault you cant understand where i am coming from and i find none of this amusing.

 

[innertide]

Shuffling papers would have done the Catholic adoption agency no good. They had to accept gay adoption as a matter of non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. There was no loophole available. This is going to be happening more and more often. Catholic agencies will be required to forego their religion or go out of business. Caesar will have his incense. One must worship the state’s idols or else.

Not true , there are ways around everything, if the Church is more than prepared to sweep sex scandal after sex scandal under the rug until it finally blows up in their face, then they can certainly find a way to make sure children make it to good families while avoiding the ever advancing homosexual lawsuit threats. An then when that lawsuit comes up an that issue of moving children around so they dont get adopted by homosexuals, comes up, then the Church can filabuster the same way they have been doing on numerous things.

Tie it up in the courts like everyone else does about everything till the next bouncing ball comes along and forgets the last.

 

[SuperLuigi]

And as Blitzwing pointed out (if I recall correctly), marriages between the impotent and the infertile also aren’t open to procreation. I suspect you’ll argue as others have that men and women can have kids “in principle” so the fact that a particular couple can’t bear children is not an issue.

Traditional marriage is recognized and subsidized by the state in order to further ensure the survival of the state, not as means to overtly discriminate and make certain people feel a particular way.

Where the progressive argument in this fails is that some arbitrary and capricious intent, but one based on logic for the betterment of the whole, and it has worked out quite well.

As Adam Kolasinski notes:

“A small minority of married couples are infertile. However… fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate. …Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reading technology, excluding them is impossible. Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them. The marriage laws, therefore, ensure, albeit imperfectly, that the vast majority of couples who do get the benefits of marriage are those who bear children.”

This is where our moralities diverge; I am a consequentialist (consequence-oriented) whereas Christian morality is deontic (principle-oriented). When a moral code effectively ignores consequences in favor of generalized principles, arguments like the above can be made.

Not in the secular realm.

Even so, why would it be such a bad thing to broaden the definition of marriage?

Because it does benefit children and society. Historically, marriage usually had perceived societal benefits and was not defined out political correctness or the sexual desires of two or more persons.

There are other aspects of marriage that make it important, such as family stability, that can be realized in gay unions.

That does not appear to be the case.

 

[Oreoracle]

“A small minority of married couples are infertile. However… fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate. …Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reading technology, excluding them is impossible. Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them. The marriage laws, therefore, ensure, albeit imperfectly, that the vast majority of couples who do get the benefits of marriage are those who bear children.”

I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue with this quote. Is this supposed to convey that marrying couples who won’t have kids is wrong, but it’s just too impractical to tell which couples won’t procreate?

Not in the secular realm.

Yes, that was my point. Most secularists are consequentialists and most of the religious are deontologists. Thus we aren’t going to agree on whether or not it’s necessary to make distinctions.

For example, a Christian can argue that infertile/impotent couples can be treated the same as procreating couples because they are teleologically “oriented” for procreation even though they can’t actually do it. A consequentialist would make a distinction between the two groups because, predictably enough, the consequences of being infertile differ from not being infertile; the fact that the procreation simply will not occur matters in a consequentialist system.

Because it does benefit children and society. Historically, marriage usually had perceived societal benefits and was not defined out political correctness or the sexual desires of two or more persons.

I agree with this. Our disagreement rather lies in what counts as a “benefit”. This isn’t surprising considering that we come from opposite ends of the moral spectrum.

That does not appear to be the case.

Evidence?

 

[Corki]

Shuffling papers would have done the Catholic adoption agency no good. They had to accept gay adoption as a matter of non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.** There was no loophole available.** This is going to be happening more and more often. Catholic agencies will be required to forego their religion or go out of business. Caesar will have his incense. One must worship the state’s idols or else.

The only legal avenue that was left to Catholic adoption agencies was to turn themselves into a referral agency for parishioners only. They could have refused to serve the general public and referred the actual work of adoption to attorneys to handle privately. They could not have stayed in business as adoption agencies. I hope that the parishes in these states are doing adoption referrals as part of their pastoral work but they are no longer able to help non-Catholics or those who can’t afford private adoptions.

 

[Latinitas]

There’s something that got lost in the civil marriage/ecclesiastical marriage debate: the fact that the contract of marriage is the sacrament of marriage. Bl. Pius IX explicitly condemned the proposition that the sacrament of marriage consists in the benediction alone. When I say that marriage ought to be ecclesiastical, I mean a sort millet system, if you will, like there is in Israel.

I’m a strong traditional conservative by the way, a De Maistre devotee and Metternich follower, which may partially explain my views on Church and state, and so if I had it my way (moderately), at least to me, the Catholic Church would be the state Church and canonical marriage would be mandatory for all Catholics. Alas, a pipe dream.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas