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tarboy
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Your examples don’t work
Legal bank robbing could be hostile takeover (not a sin by itself)
Legal lynching could be the state or federal death penalty
Since perjury is a criminal offense, ‘legal’ perjury cannot exist.
I don’t support abortion but I do respect what is legal. I wonder if other Catholics feel the same.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
Abortion law isn’t changing physics. It simply states that a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy. The morality is what is debated.
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Bookcat
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm#1902
We are to respect just laws…such is not a just law is a kind of violence.
1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:
Code:
A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.We are to respect just laws…such is not a just law is a kind of violence.
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Bookcat
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Life is yes suprephysics. It is of an even higher order than the roundness of the earth.
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Bookcat
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm#1902
We are to respect just laws…such is not a just law is a kind of violence…
1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:
Code:
A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.We are to respect just laws…such is not a just law is a kind of violence…
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Adolphus_WC
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Rightful freedom of religion - it cuts both ways. Our society has determined that the common good lies in the rights of woman over the rights of fetuses. Immoral as we may see it.
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Bookcat
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Sorry society can not simply willi nilly determine the common good and thus violate the rights and lives of the unborn. Anymore than the Nazis can determine that the death of every Jew is for the “common good” of the society they governed.
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Bookcat
Guest
Period
The end.
Now back to the actual thread for this has been a derailment of the persons thread.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
Morally you can close the conversation, in the realm of civics you can not. The reason that some Catholics support abortion law us because they value the freedom of religion. This freedom cuts both ways.
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thewanderer
Guest
I understand that there is a difference between the laws of the land and the laws of religion, and, especially as we do not have a state religion one should not expect them to line up exactly. However, its certainly allowable to dislike a law or try to get it changed. Its certainly not necessary to support something you believe is as inherently wrong as murder. And it still seems wrong to support something you believe is murder. If you are convinced its murder its not ok to support it. Personally, I don’t believe abortion is murder because of my religion, I believe it is murder because of what I know from biology. Religion is not the only reason to believve abortion is murder. However, even if the only reason you believe it to be murder is because of your religion, how does that make it ok to support the legislation of it?
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TEPO
Guest
If everyone votes as you advise, according to the common good, and excluded morality we can surely expect to see the practice of eugenics take hold in the near future… I suppose that would be fine too.
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Bookcat
Guest
The foundational documents of America recognized life.
It is a right not given by the State (civilly) but by the Creator.
Whom we know to be God.
As to the latter…then such Catholics would be misinformed or confused etc
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Bookcat
Guest
No State has the right or power to make it legal to kill the unborn.
Not within their power.
In fact contrary to the very nature of the Authority of the State.
Not within their power.
In fact contrary to the very nature of the Authority of the State.
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Adolphus_WC
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People support and denounce things for a variety of reasons. Religion is or should be the way that you live your life. If you feel it valid for you, it should be valid for others. So people cite religion as a reason.
Religion in this society often falls short because it’s not shared across the board.
Homosexual unions are an example. Homosexuality is immoral according to many religions. Banning Homosexual unions isn’t going to stop homosexuality but people feel because they feel it’s immoral anything that may validate it should be illegal. In civil society who consenting adults engage in sexual activity has little bearing on the society’s day to day functioning. E.X. it doesn’t matter if your mail man is gay as long as the mail is delivered. You can argue that it’s immoral but most people don’t see it as threat to their day to day lives so it’s tolerated.
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Adolphus_WC
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We already have genetically modified food, plant and animals. We have gene therapy. We are moving in that direction. How we regulate it is the question. Secular Ethics and Religion both have a place in the discussion.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Adolphus
**Morally you can close the conversation, in the realm of civics you can not. The reason that some Catholics support abortion law us because they value the freedom of religion. This freedom cuts both ways. **
But religion is not, strictly speaking, a religious issue. You can be irreligious and still oppose abortion. I know atheists who oppose abortion.
You still have not answered the question: Why do some Catholic support legal abortion?
Do they support it because society allows it?
Do they support it because they are poorly catechized about what abortion really is?
Do they support it because they never hear it condemned from the pulpit?
Do they support it because it’s politically correct and the “liberal” thing to do?
Do they support it because they are Democrats, and Democratic politicians support it?
Do they support it because some Catholic politicians support it, and they think politicians are smarter than priests?
Do they support it because they support so-called women’s lib rights?
Do they support it because they are just plain stupid and support everything that is legal?
Somebody help me out here?
**Morally you can close the conversation, in the realm of civics you can not. The reason that some Catholics support abortion law us because they value the freedom of religion. This freedom cuts both ways. **
But religion is not, strictly speaking, a religious issue. You can be irreligious and still oppose abortion. I know atheists who oppose abortion.
You still have not answered the question: Why do some Catholic support legal abortion?
Do they support it because society allows it?
Do they support it because they are poorly catechized about what abortion really is?
Do they support it because they never hear it condemned from the pulpit?
Do they support it because it’s politically correct and the “liberal” thing to do?
Do they support it because they are Democrats, and Democratic politicians support it?
Do they support it because some Catholic politicians support it, and they think politicians are smarter than priests?
Do they support it because they support so-called women’s lib rights?
Do they support it because they are just plain stupid and support everything that is legal?
Somebody help me out here?
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thewanderer
Guest
I understand that you can’t just force other people to live like one does themselves. I am not trying to force everyone by law to live as I do. To force people by law to attend mass every sunday would be absurd. I am not arguing for anything like that. Howevver it sounds as though you are saying that we cannot voice our opposition to what we believe is murder ( our belief of which is not necessarily founded in religion, but is often simply in accord with our religion instead of actually being based off of our religion) simply because it happens to coincide with our religious beliefs. This sounds like religious discrimination to me.
Also, do you really believe itss ok to support something that you believe to be murder? Again I bring up the example of infanticide. What if a group of people in our society started to convince themselves that infanticide is not murder. Are we then supposed to support the legalization of infanticide simply because there are other people in our society who think it is ok? There are certainly people in our society who think it is ok to steal from others, and to kill others, should we support the legalization of theft and murder simply because there are some in our society who believe that these things are moral? In other words, where does one draw the line? How does one decide what moral standard society should be held up to?
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Adolphus_WC
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I think it can be all those reasons. I don’t think it is a uniformed answer across the board.Adolphus
**Morally you can close the conversation, in the realm of civics you can not. The reason that some Catholics support abortion law us because they value the freedom of religion. This freedom cuts both ways. **
But religion is not, strictly speaking, a religious issue. You can be irreligious and still oppose abortion. I know atheists who oppose abortion.
You still have not answered the question: Why do some Catholic support legal abortion?
Do they support it because society allows it?
Do they support it because they are poorly catechized about what abortion really is?
Do they support it because they never hear it condemned from the pulpit?
Do they support it because it’s politically correct and the “liberal” thing to do?
Do they support it because they are Democrats, and Democratic politicians support it?
Do they support it because some Catholic politicians support it, and they think politicians are smarter than priests?
Do they support it because they support so-called women’s lib rights?
Do they support it because they are just plain stupid and support everything that is legal?
Somebody help me out here?
I know many woman that self identify as Catholics but support the right to choose. To them it is a woman’s issue.
I have given the example of religious freedom. If you want to be free you have allow others to be free.
American Catholics don’t feel the direct hand of the Vatican in their daily lives unless they seek it out. We value individualism and self determination as Americans which is often at odds with a Hierarchical Entity like the Church. You can call it poorly catechized but I think most would consider that they are following their consciences even when at odds with the church.
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livingwordunity
Guest
The question in the OP was about Catholics who support legalized abortion, not non-Catholics who support it. Those who are Catholic but who support legalized abortion are trying to serve two masters which Jesus said we should not do. This comes down to whether or not one has faith in God and therefore trust in his Church which is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit when the Church teaches in all matters of faith and morals.
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