Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

[Charlemagne_II]

Adolphus

**You can call it poorly catechized but I think most would consider that they are following their consciences even when at odds with the church. **

Why would conscience tell them that abortion should be legal?

And why are they Catholic if they are going to support the views of politicians rather than the Church.

And why haven’t they been catechized to understand that when their so-called conscience disagrees with the Church, they should look to see if their conscience is poorly formed?

It is not a teaching of the Church that conscience is superior to the law of God.

It is not even allowed by the State that conscience supersedes the civil law.

 

[TEPO]

I think it can be all those reasons. I don’t think it is a uniformed answer across the board.

I know many woman that self identify as Catholics but support the right to choose. To them it is a woman’s issue.

I have given the example of religious freedom. If you want to be free you have allow others to be free.

American Catholics don’t feel the direct hand of the Vatican in their daily lives unless they seek it out. We value individualism and self determination as Americans which is often at odds with a Hierarchical Entity like the Church. You can call it poorly catechized but I think most would consider that they are following their consciences even when at odds with the church.

Are you Scottish Rite?

 

[Adolphus_WC]

Adolphus

**You can call it poorly catechized but I think most would consider that they are following their consciences even when at odds with the church. **

Why would conscience tell them that abortion should be legal?

And why are they Catholic if they are going to support the views of politicians rather than the Church.

And why haven’t they been catechized to understand that when their so-called conscience disagrees with the Church, they should look to see if their conscience is poorly formed?

It is not a teaching of the Church that conscience is superior to the law of God.

It is not even allowed by the State that conscience supersedes the civil law.

Most I’ve had discussions with disagree that person-hood starts at conception. They believe because the fetus isn’t viable until after 22 weeks that person-hood is debatable or at the least whether the rights of the fetus should supersede the rights of the mother.

I don’t think that they derive their views from politicians but rather seek out politicians that support their view.

1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

The catechism is tempered with

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.

There are some that have given the topic a lot of thought and some not enough. But I think that can be said for any group of people. Those that have feel as though they are following their consciences. At least from my experience.

There are consequences and allowances for civil disobedience. For example we allow for conscientious objectors in times of war.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Adolphus

**Morally you can close the conversation, in the realm of civics you can not. The reason that some Catholics support abortion law us because they value the freedom of religion. This freedom cuts both ways. **

But religion is not, strictly speaking, a religious issue. You can be irreligious and still oppose abortion. I know atheists who oppose abortion.

You still have not answered the question: Why do some Catholic support legal abortion?

Do they support it because society allows it?

Do they support it because they are poorly catechized about what abortion really is?

Do they support it because they never hear it condemned from the pulpit?

Do they support it because it’s politically correct and the “liberal” thing to do?

Do they support it because they are Democrats, and Democratic politicians support it?

Do they support it because some Catholic politicians support it, and they think politicians are smarter than priests?

Do they support it because they support so-called women’s lib rights?

Do they support it because they are just plain stupid and support everything that is legal?

Somebody help me out here?

You left out: Some of them support it or pretend to, because they themselves have had an abortion and are ashamed of it.

 

[Adolphus_WC]

Are you Scottish Rite?

A Mason, ha! no. Although, I do like the Shriners little cars.

 

[thewanderer]

Again, I have to wonder why you have not addressed my post.

I understand that you can’t just force other people to live like one does themselves. I am not trying to force everyone by law to live as I do. To force people by law to attend mass every sunday would be absurd. I am not arguing for anything like that. Howevver it sounds as though you are saying that we cannot voice our opposition to what we believe is murder ( our belief of which is not necessarily founded in religion, but is often simply in accord with our religion instead of actually being based off of our religion) simply because it happens to coincide with our religious beliefs. This sounds like religious discrimination to me.

Also, do you really believe itss ok to support something that you believe to be murder? Again I bring up the example of infanticide. What if a group of people in our society started to convince themselves that infanticide is not murder. Are we then supposed to support the legalization of infanticide simply because there are other people in our society who think it is ok? There are certainly people in our society who think it is ok to steal from others, and to kill others, should we support the legalization of theft and murder simply because there are some in our society who believe that these things are moral? In other words, where does one draw the line? How does one decide what moral standard society should be held up to?

 

[tarboy]

I think it’s the same problem with both groups
Neither of them truely recognize that a person is being killed

The question in the OP was about Catholics who support legalized abortion, not non-Catholics who support it. Those who are Catholic but who support legalized abortion are trying to serve two masters which Jesus said we should not do. This comes down to whether or not one has faith in God and therefore trust in his Church which is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit when the Church teaches in all matters of faith and morals.

 

[Adolphus_WC]

Again, I have to wonder why you have not addressed my post.

Sorry, I thought I addressed some of your questions in other posts. I’m not avoiding you, just a bit overwhelmed.

I do think it your place and every citizens place to voice their opinion. I have stated and I’m sure that you’ve heard before that not everyone thinks that person-hood starts at conception. I’ve know many self identifying Catholics that hold that opinion.

But to get into it - I think you would find it hard to find a modern society that favors infanticide.

I think that euthanasia is better correlation.

Does the right to life also include the right to end life. The Catholic answer is unequivocally no. Society as a whole debates the issue.

We think it’s humane to put a suffering animal down. Why would it not be humane to end the suffering of a loved one, especially if they asked, something a animal can’t do. It is considered sinful because it considered suicide.

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

We are also considered the stewards of the Earth and the animals. We can make determination for their well being but not our own.

We are not also required to go to extraordinary means to prolong our lives. Do Not Resuscitate is a valid stance for a Catholic to take. It is also valid to use extraordinary measure to prolong life. Breathing machines and feeding tubes etc.

So the debate continues. Is it suicide or mercy?

Seeing older relatives die in Catholic hospitals, pain management is often a loop hole around this. The patient gets increasing amounts of morphine to “manage the pain” until they effectively O.D. - it is a peaceful way to go.

You can get into the Doctrine of Double Effect but call a spade a spade, it’s euthanasia. In my opinion it’s humane. Granted it’s not a plastic bag over the head but the result is the same.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Adolphus

From Cardinal George of Chicago

On Illinois Governor Pat Quinn’s misrepresentation of Catholic teachings

The following cited from a statement released by all the bishops of Illinois

“As Catholic pastors, we wanted to remind the Governor that conscience, while always free, is properly formed in harmony with the tradition of the Church, as defined by Scripture and authentic teaching authority. A personal conscience that is not consistent with authentic Catholic teaching is not a Catholic conscience. The Catholic faith cannot be used to justify positions contrary to the faith itself. It is a matter of personal integrity for people who call themselves Catholic to act in a manner that is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

Cardinal George is amplifying your quote from the Catechism 1802

“1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.”

1800 agrees with 1802.

**There are consequences and allowances for civil disobedience. For example we allow for conscientious objectors in times of war. **

Conscientious objectors have to prove they are seeking protection on the 1st Amendment right to practice religion, which is the law of the land. So it is the 1st Amendment that trumps laws of conscription. One law trumping another, more than conscience trumping the law.

Could you use conscience to trump the law by lynching someone you thought to be guilty of a crime after the jury said that the accused was not guilty?

 

[Bookcat]

“We must free ourselves from the hidden lies with which we deceive ourselves. God sees through them, and when we come before God, we too are forced to recognize them. “But who can discern his errors? Clear me from hidden faults” prays the Psalmist (Ps 19:12 [18:13]). Failure to recognize my guilt, the illusion of my innocence, does not justify me and does not save me, because I am culpable for the numbness of my conscience and my incapacity to recognize the evil in me for what it is.”

~Pope Benedict XVI Encyclical Letter: Spe Salvi

 

[thewanderer]

Sorry, I thought I addressed some of your questions in other posts. I’m not avoiding you, just a bit overwhelmed.

I do think it your place and every citizens place to voice their opinion. I have stated and I’m sure that you’ve heard before that not everyone thinks that person-hood starts at conception. I’ve know many self identifying Catholics that hold that opinion.

But to get into it - I think you would find it hard to find a modern society that favors infanticide.

I think that euthanasia is better correlation.

Does the right to life also include the right to end life. The Catholic answer is unequivocally no. Society as a whole debates the issue.

We think it’s humane to put a suffering animal down. Why would it not be humane to end the suffering of a loved one, especially if they asked, something a animal can’t do. It is considered sinful because it considered suicide.

We are also considered the stewards of the Earth and the animals. We can make determination for their well being but not our own.

We are not also required to go to extraordinary means to prolong our lives. Do Not Resuscitate is a valid stance for a Catholic to take. It is also valid to use extraordinary measure to prolong life. Breathing machines and feeding tubes etc.

So the debate continues. Is it suicide or mercy?

Seeing older relatives die in Catholic hospitals, pain management is often a loop hole around this. The patient gets increasing amounts of morphine to “manage the pain” until they effectively O.D. - it is a peaceful way to go.

You can get into the Doctrine of Double Effect but call a spade a spade, it’s euthanasia. In my opinion it’s humane. Granted it’s not a plastic bag over the head but the result is the same.

ok, sorry for pressuring you… I can totally understand being overwhelmed!

I guess the reason I wanted you to answer what I was saying, and the reason I brought up infanticide, is because the very same reasons you gave for supporting abortion can be given for supporting infanticide, if enough people in a society begin to think its not murder, or not really wrong. I realize that currently it is generally held to be a reprehensible act, but will it always be looked upon by many in society as a reprehensible act? I’m probably still not being very clear…
Essentially, I’m wondering where you draw the line. How do you decide what to base the morality of a society off of. If it is simply whatever the people decide they want, then it is possible to have a very twisted society that allows all sorts of atrocities to become legal. So what do you do? Do you say that we should support all of these atrocities because we should let people do whatever they want? Where are we, as a society, allowed to draw the line? As I said before, many of the argumentss against abortion are not actually based on religion. It is often the case that the pro-life stance coincides with religious beliefs rather than simply being a religious belief. Yes, it would not be a great idea to impose an anti-abortion law on others simply because our God told us it is wrong. But that is not the case with abortion. Its morality is widely debated and not just on the basis that Christianity says it is wrong.

To be honest, I’m not sure exactly what you are arguing. Are you arguing that catholics should support abortion, that catholics can support abortion, or simply that catholics shouldn’t impose laws on those of other beliefs simply because their religion tells them its wrong?

 

[Bookcat]

“We must free ourselves from the hidden lies with which we deceive ourselves. God sees through them, and when we come before God, we too are forced to recognize them. “But who can discern his errors? Clear me from hidden faults” prays the Psalmist (Ps 19:12 [18:13]). Failure to recognize my guilt, the illusion of my innocence, does not justify me and does not save me, because I am culpable for the numbness of my conscience and my incapacity to recognize the evil in me for what it is.”

~Pope Benedict XVI Encyclical Letter: Spe Salvi

---

 

[Adolphus_WC]

Adolphus

From Cardinal George of Chicago

On Illinois Governor Pat Quinn’s misrepresentation of Catholic teachings

The following cited from a statement released by all the bishops of Illinois

“As Catholic pastors, we wanted to remind the Governor that conscience, while always free, is properly formed in harmony with the tradition of the Church, as defined by Scripture and authentic teaching authority. A personal conscience that is not consistent with authentic Catholic teaching is not a Catholic conscience. The Catholic faith cannot be used to justify positions contrary to the faith itself. It is a matter of personal integrity for people who call themselves Catholic to act in a manner that is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church.”

Cardinal George is amplifying your quote from the Catechism 1802

“1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.”

1800 agrees with 1802.

**There are consequences and allowances for civil disobedience. For example we allow for conscientious objectors in times of war. **

Conscientious objectors have to prove they are seeking protection on the 1st Amendment right to practice religion, which is the law of the land. So it is the 1st Amendment that trumps laws of conscription. One law trumping another, more than conscience trumping the law.

Could you use conscience to trump the law by lynching someone you thought to be guilty of a crime after the jury said that the accused was not guilty?

It’s circular reasoning though. If you are conflicted you are to obey your conscious, how do you know it’s right? If it agrees with the Church. It’s not really your conscious but rather a reflection of the dogma. It’s indoctrination rather than introspection. For example Just War theory, I struggle with it being constant with Christ’s teaching.

Conscious is the basis of Conscientious Objection, it can reflect religious views but it doesn’t have to. You just have to have a paper trail, a history of pacifism, not just claim it out of the blue out of convenience.

 

[Bookcat]

If you are conflicted you are to obey your conscious, how do you know it’s right? If it agrees with the Church. It’s not really your conscious but rather a reflection of the dogma.

If there is a real conflict…like ones certain conscience says “I must do x or I will commit a mortal sin”…

Remember the Teachings of the Church are not some “external” element but

are “part” of the very conscience of the Catholic.

It is not a conflict here between the teaching of the Church and his conscience.

It is a conflict within his conscience. It is a conflict “inside” conscience itself.

His conscience is divided against* itself*. The person is divided against himself.

 

[Adolphus_WC]

simply

because their religion tells them its wrong?

What I think I am saying is: In order to be Catholic in the USA the laws of the Land don’t have to follow Catholic Doctrine. It is clear what the Church says about abortion. Not all self identifying Catholics hold true to Catholic Doctrine. We should follow our consciences, informed by our faith for those that have one, experience and study.

We should as citizens work to the betterment of society as we see fit. Religion in and of itself falls short for a reason why something should be adapted universally. It should inform the process if it part of your life. But you must recognize that “God says so” makes many close off to any further discourse. The value should be determined and shown at a societal level because we are not a Theocracy.

 

[Adolphus_WC]

The person is divided against himself.

If they weren’t… there would be no conflict.

 

[Bookcat]

If they weren’t… there would be no conflict.

The point is that the Teachings of the Church are PART of the persons conscience…they reality of the Church etc they are not in conflict with something that is not part of their very conscience …but it is their conscience itself that is divided against their conscience.

(only of course when we are speaking of a real situation as I described…often such that are claimed are not even that…but simply the person wanting to do what they want…)

 

[Adolphus_WC]

The point is that the Teachings of the Church are PART of the persons conscience…they reality of the Church etc they are not in conflict with something that is not part of their very conscience …but it is their conscience itself that is divided against their conscience.

(only of course when we are speaking of a real situation as I described…often such that are claimed are not even that…but simply the person wanting to do what they want…)

But our experience isn’t just dogma. We are informed by our lives, by our relationships, and by our actions. “and they will know we are Christians by our love” not by our Catechism.

 

[Bookcat]

But our experience isn’t just dogma. We are informed by our lives, by our relationships, and by our actions. “and they will know we are Christians by our love” not by our Catechism.

Experience??

I know He in Whom I have believed --only in following him is true life.

“He who finds himself will lose himself.” “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but loose his soul.” Only in Jesus Christ is true life.

We are to Profess and live our Faith -which includes what is in the Catechism… We are to live our Baptism. We live our great YES

“In order to arrive at a systematic knowledge of the content of the faith, all can find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church a precious and indispensable tool. It is one of the most important fruits of the Second Vatican Council.”…" study the fundamental content of the faith that receives its systematic and organic synthesis in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here, in fact, we see the wealth of teaching that the Church has received, safeguarded and proposed in her two thousand years of history."
–Pope Benedict XVI

And yes we must love. We must work for the end of abortion. For life.

Love never supports abortion or can see it is a just law etc. Love can never choose to murder a child. Love does not lie to a mother and tell her it is ok to kill the life within.
*
Love without truth is not love.*

 

[Bookcat]

“Confessing with the lips indicates in turn that faith implies public testimony and commitment. A Christian may never think of belief as a private act. Faith is choosing to stand with the Lord so as to live with him. This “standing with him” points towards an understanding of the reasons for believing. Faith, precisely because it is a free act, also demands social responsibility for what one believes. The Church on the day of Pentecost demonstrates with utter clarity this public dimension of believing and proclaiming one’s faith fearlessly to every person. It is the gift of the Holy Spirit that makes us fit for mission and strengthens our witness, making it frank and courageous.”–Pope Benedict XVI (Porta Fidei)