Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[Dokimas]

Not defensive, its “situational awareness”. It, and the Grace of God, is what brings me home every night.

Besides I know it’s you who is defensive because I won the coin toss and elected to recieve.

God bless you

Come to think of it, I’m best on defense. You have to be when you aren’t offensive.

 

[Dokimas]

10-4 D, that is what is amazing about God’s love. We do nothing to deserve it and, in fact, we deserve quite the opposite. It is not unjust or wrong for a just God to deal with sinful and fallen creatures.

God bless

If God doesn’t love me, I far more pitiful than I appear.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

If God doesn’t love me, I far more pitiful than I appear.

Fair enough D. Good talk.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I just wanted to talk a little about types of baptism and possibly which one is refered to as a saving baptism.

There are many “baptisms” out there. Other religions have one, some are practiced differently then others.

Which Baptism is directly corelated to salvation?

Water baptism OR spiritual (supernatural) baptism?

Ok lets establish something here:

Acts 1:3-5
3He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.
4And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Mark 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

John 1:33
I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How here is a Prime example that saving “baptism” is **not **water but holy spirit and supernatural.

Acts 11:13-18
14he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?" 18When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Now looking into the other verses linked to this one, we see that there is water baptsim; however, is THAT baptism the saving one. Jesus doesn’t say unless someone is baptized by water and spirit and believes they cannot enter heaven.

We see in Acts 8:34-40 there was clearly a conversion first.
Acts 10:44-48 we see the holy spirit baptsim first.

Like I said, I don’t deny water baptsm but it doesn’t hinder the holy spiirt nor salvation.

Which one do you believe is the most likely to be baptism linked to salvation?

Water (physical)
Holy Spirit (supernatural)

I am bumping this post by dyluck because it sounds like it would lead to an interesting discussion and one that I would like to read. With some of my posts it has been pushed back a couple of pages. I would discuss it but frankly it appears to be over my head.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

Can you tell me what, in the context of Matt 1, tells you that Mary and Joseph had relations after Jesus was born? Just from the context–that is, from the other words in that chapter, ok?

We are not gonna chase that rabbit AGAIN are we?

If so, what is wrong with the Mary had other children thread?

 

[guanophore]

You are willing to trust a Hindu baby to the mercy, grace and love of God but you won’t let me let God be God for everyone. He knows all hearts and knows what we truly believe and understand.

IMO, infant baptism plays God in their lives. Let’s let God be God. Let’s get out of His way. He is able; we make messes of His plan.

Yes, it is up to God to judge. He has commanded us to let the little ones come to Him, and to hinder them not. He has ordained (His plan) that we are joined to his death and resurrection in baptism, so we do not hinder the children from coming to him in this manner. We bring our children into covenant with Him, just as the OT foreshadowed that we would do.

According to your reasoning, circumcising the children is "playing God’.

 

[guanophore]

We are commanded to evangelize.  Jesus does NOT commanded to baptize infants.  HUGE difference; compare apples with apples not with pears.

Well, surprise surprise! We read it differently! So, who are we supposed to go to if we have a disagreement about the doctrine of the faith?

Dokimas has a point that there is God playing in baby baptism. It is the assumption that baptising the baby “surprises” God and, somehow, appeasing His justice over the babies fallen state.

Those who baptize infants make no such assumption. How is it that you do? Can you please explain how this works for you?

We don’t believe anything we do “surprises” God, who has complete foreknowledge. He has chosen those that belong to Him since before the beginning of time, so help me understand how he coudl be “surprised” when we do as He commanded? This is one of the strangest things I have ever heard on CAF!

What it means is that if God has mercy, grace and love for infants and will do what’s right for them, we take over for God to make sure God will be merciful, gracious and loving to infants by baptizing them.

What is “right” (just) is that we all burn in hell for eternity, because that is what happens to all who are born in Adam.

When we baptize infants, we are following the commandment of God, who gave the promise to the repentant and their children.

There is nothing we can do do “make sure God will be merciful, gracious, and loving”. God is like this because it is His nature. But, as you see, he allows people to walk right through the gates of hell anyway. His love for us does not abrogate our free will. He loved the world enough to die for us, but we know the whole world will not be saved. This is a flawed line of reasoning.

 

[guanophore]

I have no clue how to answer you or why you are asking me. If you want to answer my question, great. I have no answer for yours.

It is true, you could not have an answer. This is because you have denied the authority that Jesus gave to His church to resolve differences among the brethren. Since you do not believe such authority exists, there IS no where to go to resolve it. We are stuck bickering over the meaning of the Scriptures. But this was not God’s intention. He intended for the Truth to be clear, so that unity would exist. The faith is to be RECEIVED from those to whom it was committed, not extrapolated from the pages of the book 2000 years after the fact.

You have reminded us that Jesus does not reject children. Then you tell us He wants them to be baptized. I agree with the first part; end of story – answer to your question to me.

Then why do they need to be baptized?

Because we are commanded to raise them in the faith, and the life of faith begins in baptism. We are to make disciples of them, and it begins with being born again.

 

[guanophore]

  I just wanted to talk a little about types of baptism and possibly which one is refered to as a saving baptism.

There are many “baptisms” out there. Other religions have one, some are practiced differently then others.

Which Baptism is directly corelated to salvation?

Water baptism OR spiritual (supernatural) baptism?

You are creating a false dichotomy, dyluck. The Apostles never separated water from being born again of the Spirit. It is called the 'washing of regeneration" because we are born again in the water.

Your spiritual ancestors departed from the Apostolic Teaching, and you have received a trucated version of the Truth.

Ok lets establish something here:

Acts 1:3-5
3He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.
4And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Mark 1:8
I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

John 1:33
I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How here is a Prime example that saving “baptism” is **not **water but holy spirit and supernatural.

No, dyluck, we do not . What we have is your modern doctrinal innovation that the HS is not working through the waters of baptism.

Acts 11:13-18

14he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?" 18When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Now looking into the other verses linked to this one, we see that there is water baptsim; however, is THAT baptism the saving one. Jesus doesn’t say unless someone is baptized by water and spirit and believes they cannot enter heaven.

Probably the clearest testimony in all of scripture that the water is NOT to be separated from the action of the HS. Peter ORDERED the water because he understood that the two were to be together.

We see in Acts 8:34-40 there was clearly a conversion first.

Acts 10:44-48 we see the holy spirit baptsim first.

Actually, a case can be made that Cornelius was converted before Peter got there.

However I agree, God was trying to show Peter that the Gentiles were to be brought into the Church through baptism, and He went out of His way to make the point to Peter.

Like I said, I don't deny water baptsm but it doesn't hinder the holy spiirt nor salvation.

No one ever claimed that it did.

Which one do you believe is the most likely to be baptism linked to salvation?

Catholics receive the Apostolic Teaching that they are not separated.

Water (physical)
Holy Spirit (supernatural)

Born again, of water AND Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

My guess is that God holds Himself to His word. Romans 13:8 tells us to owe nothing but love. Do these two sentences tell us God owes us His love?

No, not a bit. He created us out of His love, and He loved us enough to die for us, but not because He owes it to us. On the contrary, what is owed to us is death, because we all died in Adam.

Jesus accepted children. That’s good enough for me.

Exactly! And Jesus way of bringing us into eternal relationship with Him is for us to be born again of water and Spirit. We are joined with HIm in His death and resurrection through baptism. We are made members of one another, and members of Him.

This is a free gift, and there is nothing that we need to do in order to “earn” it, like come of age, or anything else.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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