Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[BILL_PICK53]

For those who deny infant baptism, the burden of proof is upon you to show that in all of the verses listed there were no infants in all of those households and families.

Jesus Christ said in Matt 19:14, “Let the little children be, and do not hinder them from coming to me.”
He also said in John 3:5, “…unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.”
How are they to come to Him unless they are Baptized?
Those who say not to Baptize infants clearly have a Biblical conflict here, and they risk the salvation of the souls of their children…

Can you help with your interpretation of these verse,Thank You

 

[OnlyJesus]

A child who wants to be saved and baptized, and understands the gospel of Christ, regardless how young, would in fact be baptized in many what Catholics call “protestant” churches…

 

[AlegreFe]

That is pretty sad that they don’t. I have a 7 year old niece who has not been baptized yet. Her older sister however (17yrs old), was baptized Catholic as an infant and I’m her Godmother. Her mother, my sister, left the church right after she baptized her daughter (my niece & Goddaughter).

They say that infants cannot speak for themselves. But that does not hold water according to scripture.

Here the centurion has faith and with his faith the centurion’s servant is healed;
Mt 8:5-13 The Faith of a Centurion
5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him,
6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.
7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.
8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

Here the head of the household is the only one that needed to have faith and the whole household is baptized;
Acts 16:30-34 The Philippian Jailer Converted
30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.
34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
Not only that, what’s to say that there were no infants in the house?! It doesn’t say anywhere that there were no infants &/or children in the house.

So there’s no exuse not to baptize infants.

 

[AlegreFe]

A child who wants to be saved and baptized, and understands the gospel of Christ, regardless how young, would in fact be baptized in many what Catholics call “protestant” churches…

The OP mentions INFANTS. It says nothing about a child. What about a baby? Why shouldn’t a baby/infant get baptized?

 

[RedSoxWife]

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and we were taught that you had to be old enough to understand what you were doing and except Jesus as your personal savior and ask him to be Lord of your life before you could be baptized.

The average age in our church for children to be baptized was usually around twelve. While our church did not believe that baptism was necessary for salvation (we were taught that you only needed to be saved) most of my friends were from churches where baptism was a requirement and it was a major worry for me for about four years (from 8 until I was old enough at 12). You could believe in Jesus and God and if you weren’t considered old enough to really understand the commitment you weren’t going to be baptized.

On the other hand when our daughter was baptized she was just under a month old and if we hadn’t had to wait for relatives traveling across the country it would have been even sooner.

 

[OnlyJesus]

What about a baby? Why shouldn’t a baby/infant get baptized?

My answer would be why SHOULD a baby or infant be baptized?

Example, a child is born, breathes, lives for a few minutes and no time for a baptism, do you believe that God in his most tender of mercies would NOT accept that child? I believe he would.
t.

 

[rtconstant]

My answer would be why SHOULD a baby or infant be baptized?

Because children have always been part of God’s covenant. Do you think that Jewish infants understand circumcision and its implications before receiving it? Baptism is the Christian initiation for the new covenant.

Example, a child is born, breathes, lives for a few minutes and no time for a baptism, do you believe that God in his most tender of mercies would NOT accept that child? I believe he would.
t.

So do I. Holding to that belief is not “un-Catholic”.

 

[AlegreFe]

My answer would be why SHOULD a baby or infant be baptized?

Why? Because Jesus said, “let the children come to me.” What better reason do you want?

Example, a child is born, breathes, lives for a few minutes and no time for a baptism, do you believe that God in his most tender of mercies would NOT accept that child? I believe he would.
t.

You cannot say for certain that God would accept a baby who has not been baptized. No one knows. The Church hopes & prays for God’s mercy on that infant life. The reason why I say that is because Jesus said that unless one is born of water & spirit they cannot enter into the Kingdom.
John 3:1-5 You Must Be Born Again
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Those verses go along with these as far as water saving us;
Tit 3:5 Be Ready for Every Good Work
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

There are circumstances however, where we could say that perhaps a baby would be accepted by God, for instance; A Christian married couple wants a child. They plan on the baptism of that new born baby’s life because they are people of faith and want their infant saved. But when that child is born something happens and the baby’s life is ended abruptly. The intention of the parents alone and their faith in Jesus could very well save that baby. We call that “baptism of desire” but on the parents’ part. The mother or the father could also baptize the baby in the last seconds of the baby’s life; it counts so long as they baptize in the name of the Father & the Son & the Holy Spirit. The baby is saved!!

 

[AlegreFe]

OnlyJesus;5240745:

Example, a child is born, breathes, lives for a few minutes and no time for a baptism, do you believe that God in his most tender of mercies would NOT accept that child? I believe he would.
t.

So do I. Holding to that belief is not “un-Catholic”.

Sorry rtconstant, you cannot say for sure with 100% certainty. Jesus gave us stipulations for entering the Kingdom. Did He say, “well except for babies, they don’t have to be born of water & spirit…” No He did not say that.

Jesus said;
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The Church believes in “baptism of desire” and if the parents of that baby truly planned on baptizing their baby but couldn’t, I would pray & hope that God would have mercy on those parents for their faith and accept the baby into His Kingdom.

I do not know the Catholic Church’s position on Mary’s tears; I believe they do not hold one. But some Catholics including myself, believe that Mary’s tears could baptize those babies that could not be baptized for particular reasons; but more so for aborted babies. No matter what, I just pray, pray, pray for God’s mercy on those babies that could not be baptized. I pray for my 7 year old niece all the time because she has not been baptized.

 

[flameburns623]

Those Protestant groups which reject infant baptism give a number of reasons:

1. There are no explicit examples of anyone other than adult believers being baptised in the New Testament. Even in the baptisms of ‘whole households’ there is no mention of small children or infants being present, so that the case for baptism of infants is conjectural only and never explicitly authorized or practiced.
2. There are only late New Testament references drawing parallels between baptism and the OT proactice of circumcision, and these are not so explicit that we can assume that the NT writiers intended for baptism to be a precise parallel with circumcision.
3. Protestants generally do not feel that Original Sin brings any condemnation upon a person. Only actual sin brings us under the condmenation of God, and actual sin can only occur with full knowledge and consent of the will. Protestants therefore speak of baptism as being unnecesary until children reach the ‘age of discretion’ the age at which they are truly accountable for their actions, usually understood to be somewhere around the age of eight to twelve.
4. Most Protestants feel the Catholic stress on baptism as a saving act makes salvation conditional upon a ‘work’. Protestants stress that salvation is based on grace through faith, a faith not of human origin but which is a gift of God. Baptism, therefore, is seen as an act of obedience and of gratitude undertaken AFTER a person has received saving faith.

Hope this helps!

 

[Religio71]

Mormons do not baptize before the age of 8. The Book of Mormon actually calls infant baptism an abomination:

Moroni 8:14-“Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.”

So according to Mormons, those that believe in infant baptism go to Hell.

 

[rtconstant]

Sorry rtconstant, you cannot say for sure with 100% certainty. Jesus gave us stipulations for entering the Kingdom. Did He say, “well except for babies, they don’t have to be born of water & spirit…” No He did not say that.

Jesus said;
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The Church believes in “baptism of desire” and if the parents of that baby truly planned on baptizing their baby but couldn’t, I would pray & hope that God would have mercy on those parents for their faith and accept the baby into His Kingdom.

I do not know the Catholic Church’s position on Mary’s tears; I believe they do not hold one. But some Catholics including myself, believe that Mary’s tears could baptize those babies that could not be baptized for particular reasons; but more so for aborted babies. No matter what, I just pray, pray, pray for God’s mercy on those babies that could not be baptized. I pray for my 7 year old niece all the time because she has not been baptized.

I didn’t say I knew with 100% certainty I said that its what I believed. I hope for their salvation, just as St. Paul hoped for his, and just as I hope for mine.

 

[guanophore]

My answer would be why SHOULD a baby or infant be baptized?

Example, a child is born, breathes, lives for a few minutes and no time for a baptism, do you believe that God in his most tender of mercies would NOT accept that child? I believe he would.

The Catholic Church believes this too, however, everyone born into the world is under the penalty of original sin. Those who are not in Christ are, as He said “condemned already”. He gave us baptism to wash away sins, so why wait? If you read the early fathers, you will see that the arguement was not about whether or not infants should be baptized, but whether they should wait for 8 days, since they understood that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance rite into the kingdom.

Why would anyone wish to withhold all the benefits of baptism from a child?

 

[Le_Cracquere]

On seeing the header, I observed that the title took the form of a question. On looking next to the title, I privately bet myself a nickel that the original post would not be an actual question of any description. I’m up $0.05!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

For those who deny infant baptism, the burden of proof is upon you to show that in all of the verses listed there were no infants in all of those households and families.

Jesus Christ said in Matt 19:14, “Let the little children be, and do not hinder them from coming to me.”
He also said in John 3:5, “…unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.”
How are they to come to Him unless they are Baptized?
Those who say not to Baptize infants clearly have a Biblical conflict here, and they risk the salvation of the souls of their children…

Can you help with your interpretation of these verse,Thank You

Gabriel of 12;

The Mercy and Grace of God is not earned, it is freely given by God; Who would refuse an infant in arms to the merciful Lord? that is why Infants are recieved into the Kingdom of God through baptism in the Catholic Church, so as to suffer (baptism is a death to original and actual sin) the Children unto the Lord.

 

[Paul3144]

1. There are only late New Testament references drawing parallels between baptism and the OT proactice of circumcision, and these are not so explicit that we can assume that the NT writiers intended for baptism to be a precise parallel with circumcision.
2. Protestants generally do not feel that Original Sin brings any condemnation upon a person. Only actual sin brings us under the condmenation of God, and actual sin can only occur with full knowledge and consent of the will. Protestants therefore speak of baptism as being unnecesary until children reach the ‘age of discretion’ the age at which they are truly accountable for their actions, usually understood to be somewhere around the age of eight to twelve.

Hope this helps!

While there are some Protestants who feel that original sin does not bring condemnation, many, including myself, believe it does. But some passages of scripture indicate that grace can be applied to babies. We don’t know for sure, but I tend to think babies do go to heaven, not because of actual innocence, but because the atonement of Christ is somehow applied to them.

I’m also going to also respond to the comparison between baptism and circumcision. There is a comparison to be made. People entered the Old Covenant through birth and then circumcision is a sign of that. In the New Covenant, people enter the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church through repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and then baptism is a sign of that.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

While there are some Protestants who feel that original sin does not bring condemnation, many, including myself, believe it does. But some passages of scripture indicate that grace can be applied to babies. We don’t know for sure, but I tend to think babies do go to heaven, not because of actual innocence, but because the atonement of Christ is somehow applied to them.

I’m also going to also respond to the comparison between baptism and circumcision. There is a comparison to be made. People entered the Old Covenant through birth and then circumcision is a sign of that. In the New Covenant, people enter the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church through repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and then baptism is a sign of that.

Gabriel of 12;

Amen, Catholics pray and hope all babies go to heaven and we trust in the mercy of God that God wills it. This is confirmed by the faith in purgatory, for these are on their way to heaven, and when the blessed Mother sees these infants in purgatory, My prayer is that She takes them to the Lord where Jesus claims them as his own. And if any sin including original sin may be removed by his eternal atonement by his blood.

One cannot enter the Jewish faith by birth. They can become Jewish, but not born into the Jewish faith. The Jewish male dictates the faith of his family by his circumcision, then all his offspring follow him. But the circumcision is not neccessarily the faith, circumcision is the sign of the covenant with God.

To enter the Kingdom of God, “Baptism saves you Now”. Baptism to the Catholic is not a sign, it is a “sacrament”. Sacraments are are a visible sign instituted by Jesus Christ himself to part Grace to the believer. To simplify this the “sacrament is the finger of God touching humanity”. Baptism is the only way into the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant for all, babies, females, Males, Jews, Gentiles. Baptism makes us all one in the family of God.

Now to get off the milk and enter maturity in the mysteries of God follows obedience which is to “Eat the body of Jesus and drink his blood”, then be willing to proclaim this faith and die for this faith once being confirmed as did the Apostles and Martyrs who follow. Then you have completed your full initiation into the Kingdom of God.

Once you have been baptised, you now ware the White wedding garment into the banquet hall of the wedding feast of the Lamb. Without this wedding garment, you will be “tied hand and foot and be cast outside” of heaven.

 

[flameburns623]

Gabriel of 12;

Amen, Catholics pray and hope all babies go to heaven and we trust in the mercy of God that God wills it. This is confirmed by the faith in purgatory, for these are on their way to heaven, and when the blessed Mother sees these infants in purgatory, My prayer is that She takes them to the Lord where Jesus claims them as his own. And if any sin including original sin may be removed by his eternal atonement by his blood.

One cannot enter the Jewish faith by birth. They can become Jewish, but not born into the Jewish faith. The Jewish male dictates the faith of his family by his circumcision, then all his offspring follow him. But the circumcision is not neccessarily the faith, circumcision is the sign of the covenant with God.

To enter the Kingdom of God, “Baptism saves you Now”. Baptism to the Catholic is not a sign, it is a “sacrament”. Sacraments are are a visible sign instituted by Jesus Christ himself to part Grace to the believer. To simplify this the “sacrament is the finger of God touching humanity”. Baptism is the only way into the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant for all, babies, females, Males, Jews, Gentiles. Baptism makes us all one in the family of God.

Now to get off the milk and enter maturity in the mysteries of God follows obedience which is to “Eat the body of Jesus and drink his blood”, then be willing to proclaim this faith and die for this faith once being confirmed as did the Apostles and Martyrs who follow. Then you have completed your full initiation into the Kingdom of God.

Once you have been baptised, you now ware the White wedding garment into the banquet hall of the wedding feast of the Lamb. Without this wedding garment, you will be “tied hand and foot and be cast outside” of heaven.

I think the RCC has stepped back from the idea that unbaptized persons–infants or otherwise–invariably go to Hell. For infants, there was a discussion of this just recently by Pope Benedict XVI.

Don’t recall the details; but as I best recollect, His Holiness made clear that God in His mercy must make some provision for infants who die without the sacrament of Baptism.

For non-Catholics there is ever the possibility of the Baptism by Desire.

This is a subject best approached with charity and hope, imho.

 

[AlegreFe]

Those Protestant groups which reject infant baptism give a number of reasons:

1. There are no explicit examples of anyone other than adult believers being baptised in the New Testament. Even in the baptisms of ‘whole households’ there is no mention of small children or infants being present, so that the case for baptism of infants is conjectural only and never explicitly authorized or practiced.

There is no mention of infants or small children because it was a given that there was infants & small children in most households. No explanations had to be given for that. If the case was that no infants should be baptized they would’ve stated, ‘no infants are to be baptized.’ Or they would’ve stated ‘only adults are to be baptized.’ But they did not say that. They said the household was baptized, which meant everyone since there was no mention of exceptions.

1. There are only late New Testament references drawing parallels between baptism and the OT proactice of circumcision, and these are not so explicit that we can assume that the NT writiers intended for baptism to be a precise parallel with circumcision.

It doesn’t matter how “late in the game” it mentions circumcision being the ‘type’ for the new initiation into God’s covenant, baptism. What matters is that it is mentioned at all.

1. Protestants generally do not feel that Original Sin brings any condemnation upon a person. Only actual sin brings us under the condmenation of God, and actual sin can only occur with full knowledge and consent of the will. Protestants therefore speak of baptism as being unnecesary until children reach the ‘age of discretion’ the age at which they are truly accountable for their actions, usually understood to be somewhere around the age of eight to twelve.

We as Catholics should know that original sin exists and it’s true for everyone not just Catholics. Original sin puts a stain on our soul from the moment the soul enters the body, at conception if that’s the case. So as soon as we are born, we are to be “born again” through water & spirit, which is baptism. Why put off being “born again” so that we can be a child of God who could enter into the Kingdom?

As far as the age of being accountable for their actions, don’t you think 10, 11 or 12 is a little old? In the Catholic Church the “age of reason” is 7 years old. And that’s usually when a child could make their first reconcilation and first holy communion. They know at that age when they’ve done something wrong.

1. Most Protestants feel the Catholic stress on baptism as a saving act makes salvation conditional upon a ‘work’. Protestants stress that salvation is based on grace through faith, a faith not of human origin but which is a gift of God. Baptism, therefore, is seen as an act of obedience and of gratitude undertaken AFTER a person has received saving faith.

That’s nonsense. As Catholics we know that grace is a free gift from God. But there are different kinds of grace and how we receive grace. When Jesus healed people He was healing them physically and also forgiving their sins. How was that done? By physical touch. Not all healings were with physical touch but most were. Well Jesus physically touches us to give us His grace. How? Through the Sacraments; one of them being the Sacrament of Baptism. And it is NOT a “work” of our own. It comes from God’s own institiution of the Sacrament.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I think the RCC has stepped back from the idea that unbaptized persons–infants or otherwise–invariably go to Hell. For infants, there was a discussion of this just recently by Pope Benedict XVI.

Don’t recall the details; but as I best recollect, His Holiness made clear that God in His mercy must make some provision for infants who die without the sacrament of Baptism.

For non-Catholics there is ever the possibility of the Baptism by Desire.

This is a subject best approached with charity and hope, imho.

Gabriel of 12;

My catechism does not say anything about stepping back? CCC 1261 pg.321 deals with children who died without baptism. Nothing about hell there? What is currently being discussed or written as opinions does not negate the teachings of the Catechism. To my knowledge the Catholic Church has never condemned anyone to Hell.

Children is the term used from the 1261, which would include infants, and new born. Where baptism of desire can be made by the parents, and baptism of blood.

Now as far as persons are considered dieing without being baptised, baptism of desire and baptism of blood still applies.

Charity and hope; I agree with you need apply, including faith, reason, understanding but above all “Love”.

Peace be with you