M
Mickey
Guest
Baptism is more than a sign. It is a sacrament (mystery).
- Status
F
FromTheAshes777
Guest
I too have grown up Southern Baptist and am reading and studying for a possible conversion to Catholicism or another more historic Christian Church. Southern Baptists (my parents and most of my family included) have always puzzled me on their ideas regarding Baptism and how those ideas relate to scripture. It’s something I questioned even when I was very young. Why did Jesus and the Apostles place so much emphasis on Baptism if it wasn’t really a necessary thing for salvation? Our Lord Jesus thought it was important enough to include in the great commission, and was even Baptized Himself! Why is this so important if it’s only a symbol of our faith and nothing more? Also, if it’s not necessary for salvation (meaning if you’re going to be saved when you die then you are definitely a “true Christian”), then why is it always a prerequisite for membership in a Souther Baptist Church? Baptism by full submersion past the age of reason specifically. I could go on about how there is no evidence that Baptisms were always done by full submersion and in many cases they could not have been, but I’ll stop here.I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and we were taught that you had to be old enough to understand what you were doing and except Jesus as your personal savior and ask him to be Lord of your life before you could be baptized.
The average age in our church for children to be baptized was usually around twelve. While our church did not believe that baptism was necessary for salvation (we were taught that you only needed to be saved) most of my friends were from churches where baptism was a requirement and it was a major worry for me for about four years (from 8 until I was old enough at 12). You could believe in Jesus and God and if you weren’t considered old enough to really understand the commitment you weren’t going to be baptized.
On the other hand when our daughter was baptized she was just under a month old and if we hadn’t had to wait for relatives traveling across the country it would have been even sooner.
I hope and pray that one day when I have children I can have them Baptized very soon after they are born.
R
rinnie
Guest
I was blown away with this the other day. The one thing that I always thought Protestants and Catholics agreed on at least was Baptism. Well one of my customers just told me that he goes to a Non-Dem. Church. Now he said they do not believe in Baptism. They do a ceremony like it but it is not baptism. This really really bothers me.
M
Mickey
Guest
He may be talking about initiation. Most non-denoms have a “baptist” theology. They have a “baptism-like” ceremony of initiation for infants and young children. And then when they are at the age of reason, they baptize them.
But even then…the baptism is only a symbol for them.
I agree–it is all quite disturbing.
R
rinnie
Guest
Hi Mickey:hug1: You are right, That is what he called it a Baptism like ceremony. Whats worse is he was once Catholic. I didn’t want to agrue with him. He said that they do bible study and learn the bible in church. All I could tell him was keep studying and I guarantee him it will bring him back to the faith. I didn’t want to push him away any further. I figure God will lead him back with the bible. I just pray for him right now. What I can’t understand he got married in the Church and his wife would have had to sign a paper to have the Child Baptised. I guess if he left the Church too it really doesn’t matter.He may be talking about initiation. Most non-denoms have a “baptist” theology. They have a “baptism-like” ceremony of initiation for infants and young children. And then when they are at the age of reason, they baptize them.
But even then…the baptism is only a symbol for them.
I agree–it is all quite disturbing.
M
Mickey
Guest
That is the best thing we can do.
B
BILL_PICK53
Guest
Can you please show me the chater and verse
R
rinnie
Guest
According to the gospel we are to all be Baptised. There is no age.
Go to Acts At Peters speech at Pentecost he said. Repent and be baptised EVERY ONE OF YOU. For the promise is made to YOU and to YOUR CHILDREN and to ALL THOSE Far off. Whomever the Lord our God will Call.
Those who ACCEPTED HIS MESSAGE were BAPTISED.
There you have it. EVERY ONE OF YOU. It does not say only adults, it says everyone. Read it again the promise is made to YOU and to YOUR CHILDREN. Its pretty clear that all are to be baptised.
Go to Acts At Peters speech at Pentecost he said. Repent and be baptised EVERY ONE OF YOU. For the promise is made to YOU and to YOUR CHILDREN and to ALL THOSE Far off. Whomever the Lord our God will Call.
Those who ACCEPTED HIS MESSAGE were BAPTISED.
There you have it. EVERY ONE OF YOU. It does not say only adults, it says everyone. Read it again the promise is made to YOU and to YOUR CHILDREN. Its pretty clear that all are to be baptised.
G
Georgia
Guest
The church of my youth was and independent Baptist church. Maybe I can throw in a couple of points about how we arrived at our view on baptism.
We used no materials from the early Church, no formal creed, and nothing other than the teachings of the pastor that were taken from a King James Bible. Our ultimate authority was that “Brother (the term for the pastor) Smith does not believe that way.” Sure, we engaged in verse slinging to explain how wrong the church was down the road that disagreed with some point we believed, but we had no real ultimate authority outside our of our pastor’s interpretation of scripture. When the pastors changed, our beliefs did too ever so slightly. Trust me, I never heard of the early doctors of the Church until I started dating the Catholic woman who became my wife. Original sin? Never heard of it.
I understand well the person who wrote about considering a jump to the Catholic Church. As a teen, I was in Bible Memory Association, Baptist Training Union, Sunday School, Youth Choir, Jail Ministry, Visitation, went to church at least twice each week and had numerous blocks of the Bible stored in my brain. There were conflicts that simply would no go away. Baptism of children was one. What I memorized could not be fully reconciled with what our church taught. That certainly was not the only issue, but it was a big one.
Studying the beliefs of the early Church did it for me. There was no doubt that youth in the early Church were baptized without answering an altar call. (I’ll never understand why we called it that; Baptist churches have no altars.)
I am thrilled to say that my children were baptized within weeks of being born. There was a down side in that my side of the family was not there. They simply don’t understand the necessity of baptism at all and certainly don’t get it for children.
One last point: People were baptized more than once. If a person were to decide he “wasn’t right with the Lord” at the time of his original baptism, he would have it done again. There was no limit to how many times you could go up for the full immersion baptism. If there was any doubt a in a person’s mind about his salvation the first time, he would go up again and ask to be re-baptized.
We used no materials from the early Church, no formal creed, and nothing other than the teachings of the pastor that were taken from a King James Bible. Our ultimate authority was that “Brother (the term for the pastor) Smith does not believe that way.” Sure, we engaged in verse slinging to explain how wrong the church was down the road that disagreed with some point we believed, but we had no real ultimate authority outside our of our pastor’s interpretation of scripture. When the pastors changed, our beliefs did too ever so slightly. Trust me, I never heard of the early doctors of the Church until I started dating the Catholic woman who became my wife. Original sin? Never heard of it.
I understand well the person who wrote about considering a jump to the Catholic Church. As a teen, I was in Bible Memory Association, Baptist Training Union, Sunday School, Youth Choir, Jail Ministry, Visitation, went to church at least twice each week and had numerous blocks of the Bible stored in my brain. There were conflicts that simply would no go away. Baptism of children was one. What I memorized could not be fully reconciled with what our church taught. That certainly was not the only issue, but it was a big one.
Studying the beliefs of the early Church did it for me. There was no doubt that youth in the early Church were baptized without answering an altar call. (I’ll never understand why we called it that; Baptist churches have no altars.)
I am thrilled to say that my children were baptized within weeks of being born. There was a down side in that my side of the family was not there. They simply don’t understand the necessity of baptism at all and certainly don’t get it for children.
One last point: People were baptized more than once. If a person were to decide he “wasn’t right with the Lord” at the time of his original baptism, he would have it done again. There was no limit to how many times you could go up for the full immersion baptism. If there was any doubt a in a person’s mind about his salvation the first time, he would go up again and ask to be re-baptized.
R
rinnie
Guest
May God bless you and lead you on your Journey. And you are correct give that babys soul to Jesus Christ as soon as possible. Don’t give the devil a chance to get to it. I know with my kids the first place they went after home from the hospital was CHurch to be blessed into the faith of Jesus CHrist.
As a Roman Catholic we have the baby’s soul given to God as soon as possible. Then the God parents are responsible to teach the Child of God if we should pass. Then at the age of about 13, 8th grade the Child has been taught the word of God. Then it receives its confirmation. It is confirming its faith, and taking over the Baptism vows on their own now, The Parents are no longer responsible for the Child, the Church feels the child can now continue his faith on his own. We as parents have fullfilled our promise to bring the Child up in the faith, now the Child is responsible for his or her sins. They are considered a responsible adult in the eyes of God for doing the right thing. They should by then understand right from wrong.
R
rinnie
Guest
Also I was taught as a RC that a person could only be Baptised once. Rather it be protestant, Catholic etc. As long as that person was baptised in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit it is considered A Christian Baptism and is valid in any Christian Church.
R
RedSoxWife
Guest
It was something that bothered me from a very young age as well. Whenever I read the verses regarding baptism I would worry even more. I had been taught to take the Bible very literally and yet I was supposed to ignore the verses that said Baptism was necessary for salvation? I was so relieved when I was finally baptized. I can’t understand now how, when the Bible was stressed so much on other issues, it was so completely ignored on Baptism.
When I began studying Catholicism so many questions that I had had (which had caused a real crisis of faith for me for several years) were finally answered!
M
Mickey
Guest
In the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Church, the infants receive all three sacraments of initiation at the same time. My child was baptized, chrismated, and received first Holy Communion at the age of two weeks!
R
rinnie
Guest
Yes Mickey, When my kids were getting their Communion thats what happened. A kid in their Sunday School had all of the above. I asked Father and he said yes they are just as valid. Its kind of a good way to explain the differences in our Churchs customs, but the same meaning and faith. My kids were like why didn’t we go to that Church, we could have skipped Sunday School. I told them I think God knew you pretty well and thought you needed more Sunday School. God knows the kids that need more than othersIn the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Church, the infants receive all three sacraments of initiation at the same time. My child was baptized, chrismated, and received first Holy Communion at the age of two weeks!
But I know you guys still have Sunday School, just kidding there, but our Church just makes the SS mandatory to receive the Sacraments. But you are right, they have the same meaning.
But I do have a question for you Mickey, Did your kids get communion when they were little. Like 2 and up? Or was there a certain age that they went up for it. Just wondering.
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
I got to see that! It was amazing.In the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Church, the infants receive all three sacraments of initiation at the same time. My child was baptized, chrismated, and received first Holy Communion at the age of two weeks!
The man I am dating is his niece’s godfather. They are Byzantine Catholic and they had a Chrismation for her.As someone who is Latin Rite and only seen Latin Rites, this was definitely an experience to be sure. As I listened to the baptism I heard something about “confirming” and I thought, “Are they confirming her?” Then when it was time for communion, I saw they were spooning communion into the baby’s mouth. To be honest, I was kind of freaked out by that and thought it was rather weird. Later on I asked my boyfriend for clarification and then said, “You crazy Byzantines!”
All in all it was an amazing mass. I kind of wish Latin Rite would do it this way too. That way the child can start receiving communion nearly immediately. And also, we get confirmed in the faith. I’m 40 and am just now going to be confirmed.
The only thing I have told him was, “Look at all the loot your niece missed out on.” When I was looking at 1st communion and confirmation gifts online.
He just chuckled.I like how Eastern Rite does Chrismation.
R
rinnie
Guest
I actually agree. I do wish the RC would do it that way. I agree the sooner they would receive the body of Christ the better. That would be awesome to see!I got to see that! It was amazing.
As someone who is Latin Rite and only seen Latin Rites, this was definitely an experience to be sure. As I listened to the baptism I heard something about “confirming” and I thought, “Are they confirming her?” Then when it was time for communion, I saw they were spooning communion into the baby’s mouth. To be honest, I was kind of freaked out by that and thought it was rather weird. Later on I asked my boyfriend for clarification and then said, “You crazy Byzantines!”
All in all it was an amazing mass. I kind of wish Latin Rite would do it this way too. That way the child can start receiving communion nearly immediately. And also, we get confirmed in the faith. I’m 40 and am just now going to be confirmed.
The only thing I have told him was, “Look at all the loot your niece missed out on.” When I was looking at 1st communion and confirmation gifts online.
I like how Eastern Rite does Chrismation.
M
Mickey
Guest
The children receive from infancy… When the child is still an infant, he/she receives the precious blood from the spoon. And yes, we have Sunday school. But it is the parent’s job to really teach their children the foundations of apostolic Christianity…and family prayer life is crucial. But you already know this my friend. God bless!
F
flameburns623
Guest
Sandy:
I am a Roman Catholic, formerly a Protestant, returned to the RCC. Please don’t confuse my attempt at analysis of the positions of some Evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants with a defense of or support for those positions. I offered the best outline of the views of Protestants who reject the necessity of baptism of infants of which I was capable. I tend to think that getting a good understanding of the perspective and reasons of others before launching into a rebuttal can lead to better dialogue and has a better likelihood of arriving at some sort of agreement.
The bottom line is that these varieties of Protestants do not believe that the rite of baptism, of itself, has any effect on the individual person unless that person makes a personal commitment for themselves. They do not agree with the view that a covenant entered into by any third party–parents or others–are in any sense binding upon upon an individual. Nor do they accept the Catholic notion of sacramental grace, infused into a soul by baptism or by any other sacrament.
Nor do they feel that an infant needs any such grace unless and until they have committed actual, personal sin, and fully understand the consequences of that sin and their personal need for repentance and grace. Whether you or I agree that ten or twelve is a bit old for a child to arrive at that understanding is moot: the age limit is usually not hard-and-fast, and is established more by local norms and practices and based upon the maturity level of the individual child.
I would note that a many Protestants who do not accept the practice of baptism of infants do in fact bring infants before the congregation to receive a blessing. Of course, even in Roman Catholicism, a blessing can be prayed by any Christian over any other person–even over an avowed atheist.
So this is not an explicit fundamentalist Protestant agreement with the Catholic view that infants need some sort of initiation into the Christian covenant. I do think it tends towards an implicit or tacit agreement with that view however: most ‘blessings’ of infants which I have seen have included some reference to this act of blessing as bringing the infant into the ‘family of the church’ and many times there are direct references made to the covenants of the Old Testament, etcetera. There remains, however an understanding that the infant is not a full member of the Christian family until they have undertaken for themselves a profession of faith in Christ, followed by a step of obedience marked by baptism.
Gabriel:
While the Church has never changed what was once official dogma to some other dogma–the fact is that prior to the 1950’s or so, the common understanding promulgated by the Baltimore Catechism and by most books on theology or apologetics is that unbaptised infants go to Limbo. Some Catholic thinkers unabashadly suggested that the unbaptised infant goes directly to Hell. (I think references to this come up in Rumble and Carty’s books , Radio Replies) That has not been the normative teaching of most theologians since at least the late 1950’s and most especially not since the Second Vatican Council. That was all I was saying.
R
rinnie
Guest
The best scripture I can find about baptism is in acts. In Peters speech at Pentecost. He says Repent and be Baptised EVERYONE OF YOU. Now that pretty much summed it up. everyone, it did not say men, women or adults it said EVERYONE. Then it goes on to say you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made TO YOU and to YOUR CHILDREN and to ALL those far offf, whomever the Lord our God will call.
That that right there says your children also. I do not think that scripture can be disputed!
That that right there says your children also. I do not think that scripture can be disputed!
B
Bookworm88
Guest
but you have to admit that Peter’s speech at Pentecost does not specifically address the infant part of the baptism question. If he is telling EVERYONE to repent and be baptized, then the person who follows his instructions should repent and be baptized. Even a child can repent and be baptized if they are old enough to understand what is is they need to repent of. An infant, however, does not have the capacity for repentance. Maybe you can find other verses that tell infants to be baptized, but all I’m saying is that Peter’s speech at Pentecost doesn’t seem to be one of them.The best scripture I can find about baptism is in acts. In Peters speech at Pentecost. He says Repent and be Baptised EVERYONE OF YOU. Now that pretty much summed it up. everyone, it did not say men, women or adults it said EVERYONE. Then it goes on to say you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made TO YOU and to YOUR CHILDREN and to ALL those far offf, whomever the Lord our God will call.
That that right there says your children also. I do not think that scripture can be disputed!
- Status