Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[jlhargus]

What really saved Noah and his family? Faith. They got on the ark because they believed and trusted in God. In the same way, baptism follows faith in Christ.

JL: first the free gift of grace that produces faith, repentance then baptism. [Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF WATER AND of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. GAL 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] We are children of God by FAITH, as many as HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED, born again of WATER AND SPIRIT.

Acts2:37 NOW when THEY HEARD this, they were PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR REMISSION OF SINS, AND ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. [FAITH, REPENT, BAPTIZED, REMISSION OF SIN, RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.]

Didn’t those three thousand who were baptized the day they heard Peter preach the word of God, and were pricked in their heart, come to the foot of the cross, believe, having faith, when they asked, “WHAT MUST WE DO’. Peter told them 'WHAT THEY MUST DO”, 1. REPENT, acknowledging they are sinners in need of forgiveness. 2. Peter told them BE BAPTIZED, they were obedient and were baptized. What did Peter tell them baptism would accomplish? REMISSION OF SINS **AND **THEY WOULD RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST. This is WATER BAPTISM. Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] 1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT of our God.] We are WASHED by water and the Spirit, born again, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5.

There are two kinds of grace, actual grace, where the HS is outside the person as a friend trying to get you to do something. The second grace is sanctifying grace, where the HS is indwelling as apart of you, sort of like your conscience, this is after baptism. In the strick sense you can say we are saved when we accept the actual grace of faith, because we are under the protection of the HS, so we can make a free will decision to accept or reject Christ. If we reject then our sins overtake us, if we accept we must repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins thru water and Spirit, then our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ and we receive sanctfiying grace, which is the indwelling HS. [Rv1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM our SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD, Titus3:5 … BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION and RENEWING OF the HOLY SPIRIT 6 which HE POURED OUT ON US]

What you are talking about is an actual grace that prompts or pricks the heart to believe and turn toward God seeking his will. It is like a conception of life, which we can allow to develop or we can reject and turn from God. If we allow that life to develop turning to God we are delivered as a child of God thur water and Spirit in baptism, from the womb of the bride of Christ our mother the Church. Born into,…1Tm3:15 the house of God which is the church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth.

If you read the passage with the emphasis on the ark instead of the water it makes more sense. The ark is a type of Christ. People were saved in the ark just like we are now saved through Christ.

JL: Not so, the scripture tells us that the flood waters are the FIGURE of baptism that now saves, the LIKE figure is WATER. 1Pt3:19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, EIGHT IN ALL, WERE SAVED THROUGH WATER, 21 and **THIS WATER SYMBOLIZED BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES YOU **also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ,]

The ark is Christ his body the Church, which we must enter. The water cleanses the earth by washing away all sin represebted by sinfull men.

 

[dyluck]

Nice to meet you Mr. RedSoxFan

Ok let’s not confuse simony with indulgesces. …… Meanwhile indulgences are “a remission of the total temporal punishment that is still due to sin after absolution.” found under the definition of plenary indulges at dictionary.com. Simony is wrong and condemed in the bible. Indulgences are biblically supported by the authority given to St. Peter and the Church is found in Mt 16:18-19. If you know of any Catholic authority commting simony please let me know and I will report them.

Well I wasn’t talking about Simony. If you throw out the so-called abuses of indulgences and are still left with the core Catholic theology on this subject, and are still left with a problem > Man.
“The indulgence is granted by the church after the sinner has confessed and received absolution.[1] The belief is that indulgences draw on the storehouse of merit acquired by Jesus’ sacrifice and the virtues and penances of the saints.[2] They are granted for specific good works and prayers.[2]”
source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
I don’t understand the difference between this and Simony… Both do not rely on Christ alone.
First, the only granting of any remission of sin is the blood shed sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Biblically, the church has no say in the remission of Sin. We are justified because of the merit and virtues of one Jesus Christ. NOT the virtues of MAN (saints)! Find for me in the bible where remission of sins has anything to do on the virtues of MAN
Also, you believe honestly, that there is a temporal punishment for sins that have already been forgiven? Wow what amazing power of God to save. (being sarcastic). You will not find this in the bible anywhere either.
Finally, what does Matt 16:18-19 have anything to do with founding the church on Peter?
The Church is founded on Christ and Christ is the Rock. (Deut. 32:3-4, 15, 18; I Cor. 10:4; Eph. 2:20; I Pet. 2:6), not Peter (Eph. 1:22; 5:23; Col. 1:18).

Mt 7:21-23 makes it pretty clear that those who have a basic faith in God are nothing without further conversion to Christ. Even having Faith can be a choice Dyluck, and as St. Augustine says grace is participatory in the individual. You could turn your back on God if you wanted to, God forbid.

The Grace of God is a free gift and involves no participation of man. Faith involves participation through the power of the Holy Spirit.
You are right, without fruit, you are a barren tree that is useless to the father. Yet, God says no one does good not one. So how do we produce fruit useful to the Father? In Galatians 5 it explains well as the Holy Spirit which empowers you to live by the spirit. Jesus says “I am the vine, you are the branch”. You cannot grow fruit without God; therefore, you cannot grow in God, without God.

Pilate, Herod, Judas, the Romans and the Jews were all men. Therefore, Jesus paid and eternal price before an enternal God by the hands of finite men.

I think you only get part of it. Yes, Jesus had to die. His blood did need to be shed. He did fulfill prophesy in being martyred, tortured and chastised before the hands of men. But there is something greater. You do not believe God plays a part in the crushing of His own son yet you ignore the passage I put up when God PUBLICALLY DISPLAYS Jesus as a PROPITIATION or when GOD crushes his son. You completely ignored it.
Let me give you some food for thought. Man has 2 problems. The Condemnation of Sin and the Power of Sin
I please answer this question for me: What does Jesus save us from?
Please think about this long and hard. If you can, get some passages plz.

Only God, is infinite and although he allowed the passion of Jesus, took no active participation in the persecution of Jesus. None. Nothing broke Christ. Satan tried and failed, as Matthew 4 shows. Christ and God were never in conflict and are one. They were never at odds, even symbollically.

Sorry, by “broke”, I mean Crush.
They were never “at odds”, until Christ became the very curse that God hates…
Do you not know the attributes of God my brother? You would then know the God’s reaction of the abomination of Sin before Him. Remember, it only took 1 sin for the entirety of mankind to be imputed the curse of sin and death and eternal separation from God. 1 sin. Jesus took the sins of many.
Understand that the full measure of God’s wrath would fall on his Son.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son. So, according to what you say in your post makes me think that you believe man took Jesus from God.
GOD GAVE JESUS OVER. Just like Abraham and Isaac. Abraham proved his love to God when he was going to give up his son, the very thing that Abraham loved the most besides God. Do you not see the relationship between the Father and Son/ Abraham and Isaac? Who was it that was going to drive the knife into the heart of Isaac? No one other then his own father. Yet, to you, it’s out of the Question that God would do this for the salvation of man. God is amazing in the sense he takes EVERYTHING in the bible turns your eyes toward Him. This is no exception. Isaac was spared, but God did not spare his own son Jesus. If God did not stop Abraham, Isaac would not have been spared either.

more to come RSF

With brotherly love,
Dyluck

 

[dyluck]

The death of Jesus is his greatest moment because he succeeds and acquiesced to the Father’s will. In the moment Jesus accepts the Father’s will to be done to him in the Garden by the Mount of Olives. God allows Jesus to choose and Jesus choices the will of the Father in a perfect act of obedience.

So God had no part in the punishment for the sins of man yet Jesus does the will of God by dieing on the cross. I honestly don’t get it sir.
Do you believe that Jesus would have not chosen to die for us? If so, would God then have been a liar? No God can’t lie, so then you would then say Jesus wasn’t the messiah. But then you say predestination is doesn’t fit the bible and God. Do you not see the logic here? I am not saying that Free Will can hinder God’s power, I am saying that Free Will can only really be a Man’s perception… The work of God is far greater then our comprehension. Is it too far fetched to think that God has control over everything? Everything happens for the Glory of God… are your actions and choices outside of that scope? Hopefully not if you believe in the same infinitely powerful God as written I our SAME bible.

The illustration you pointed out is a perfect representation that Jesus (whom we are to pattern our lives after), still submits to God the Father even though he is indeed God himself. The will of God cannot be broken. Nothing happens outside the will of God, “free will” or lack thereof.
Since you don’t believe in predestination, let me ask you another question: Why does sin exist?
Think about that for a moment and try to answer that question.

Babies are a prime example of the Will of God and Romans 1, 8 and 9. You tell me how many babies died in the flood? God curses generations to eternal damnation in the old testament (Deut 23). Where is the will of man here? If a baby dies today, you may believe it goes to heaven, but I submit that the bible says the only way to the father is through the son.
Baby baptism can not declare them saved.

Question for all pedobaptists: If a baby dies, does a baptized baby go to heaven and a unbaptized baby go to hell?

Christ in his humanity physically suffered at the hands men. That is a fact and to deny the humanity of Christ is to be a Nestorian. Furthermore, you proof-texts, while are precursors to Christ do not mean that God in any way persecuted Christ. Merely, they only point out that Jesus is the one whom the ancient prophesies were made.

Nobody is denying the 100% humanity of Christ by any of these arguments. My argument is that we are not saved just because Jesus endured the injustice of man. We are saved because Jesus apeased the Justice of God. God saved us by himself, from himself, for himself.

I seriously want to cry right now…. Isaiah 53:10 is not a precursor…. It is a prophesy… unless Jesus fulfills all prophesy except the one where God crushes Him.

You are acting like the free will of man is against the will of God. That God has given man free will is according to the will of God.

Well the so-called free will of man is against God. Romans 1-3 are prime examples of the hatred against God. Man is God hating and depraved. If it wasn’t for the grace of God, the wrath of God would fall on mankind like Fire in a blast furnace.

You clearly don’t understand the difference between the Will God gives man to choose and the “Freewillism” people believe that they can act outside the predestined Will of God.
I believe that the “Free Will” we have bears no difference (even sinning) falling outside the predestined plan / Will / knowledge and control of God.

Another example of this: I make a choice… Throw the vase or not throw the vase. First of all, if I am an elect Child of God, my “decision” is quite bias to one way already. Secondly, if I do throw the vase, was that truly outside the purpose and plan that God had? I argue no… Understand the power of your God. I’m not saying we are “robots” I am saying that we cannot act outside of Gods purpose and plan. God does not act outside of his Own Glory. True free will outside of God’s will make us Gods in our own selfs. Thats the problem here… everybody worships God, not necissarily the God of the bible but one made up in their own minds. This problem exists all over Christendom. Therefore “freewillism” is bunk. Our actions, decisions everything we do ultimately ends in the Glory of God according to the scripture. Dare I say even the acts of sinful man are used for the purpose of the Glory of God. Evidenced all over the bible…

This means people have responsibility for their actions. This also means that humans although born into Original Sin have a tendency to sin, but not always the reality of sinning. They sin becuase they choose to. Not because they cannot help themselves as if they were merely animals that lacked intellect.

You are slaves to whom you obey. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Can someone be in a state of righteousness in a unregenerate God hating state?
What choice do you have to sin or not when Adam’s sin / consequence was imputed to you?
And yes we do take responsibility for what we have done. Weather or not you think God is in control; we still did it and still take the consequences for our actions. Remember, some of this sounds unfair, but God made the rules not man.

God bless!
Dyluck

 

[dyluck]

Pharaoh’s “heart hardening” is merely the OT way of explaining that God allowed his choice of free to be stubborn. God hates Esau? No. God loved Esau. He favored Jacob over Esau.
I think Paul is just trying to make a point that Jacob was favored not that God literally hated Esau.

Well the bible says each time Moses was to approach the Pharaoh that God would harden Pharaoh’s heart. When faced with the decision of letting the Hebrews go or not, guess what… Pharaoh hardened his heart… (Which was of course done by God). The bible said the reason for that is so that they would see the Glory of God in the Signs and wonders of God.
I want you to see this… Ex 8:32 for instance. Pharoah hardened his heart (after God had said that he would harden pharaoh’s heart).
Now look here: Exodus 9:7 and 9:12 we see the direct hardening of Pharaohs’ heart at the time of “decision”. How is this stubbornness? It is plain as day.
The bible says every hair on your head is numberd… Not that God knows how many hairs you have but that he declairs how many hairs you will have on your head. Yet God backs away from the acts of man. There is no theology supporting freewillism.

Where did it say God loved Esau? I hope we aren’t making this stuff up. Cause the bible says hated, if it meant anything else, it would have said it. And the word hate is both quite prominent in Hebrew and Greek in both Romans and Malachi.
Malachi 1:2-3"2I have loved you," says the LORD But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD “Yet I have loved Jacob; 3but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”

Friends, God is not a tinker toy Santa Claus… He is the I AM. We can’t play God loves without the rest of God’s attributes. What do you think this life is about? Some test? No! That’s some heresy invented in the recent times. This is what no one gets anymore and was preached over and over before (speaking about prodistant reformation). God’s purpose is the revelation of the Attributes of God and the face of Christ… In Him, through Him to Him are all things. That is the purpose. It has nothing to do with man. We just happened to be lucky that God chose to pour His Glory and Mercy on us so that Creation can see the Mercy and Glory of God in creation.

Look at the OT, and how badly Esau was cheated by his brother. Yet in the end it is Esau who acts the most Christian out of anyone I can think of in the OT.

Does it really matter how “Christian” he acts? We are not saved by works.
And if God chose to not want Esau, then there is nothing man can do to sway God’s immutability.
Look at David… The man was an adulterer yet he was the favored by God.
The fact whom God chooses has nothing to do on the merit/acts of a man. Look how Christ chooses His deciples. The deciples didn’t choose him. Some guy just walks by and points at people and says “come, I will make you fishers of men”. Normally people would have looked at Him like he was a mad man or insane and continued fishing, but they dropped what they did and followed. What we think is fair and how God does what God does is two totally different things.

Did you not notice that the wife responded to him? Go back and read the response Jesus is praying Psalm 22. Not that God had literally forsaken him but that he was fulfilling prophesy again.

Ahh man… the prophesy in Psalm 22 was that he would call on God about being forsaken, not that he was repeating scripture.
Who is this wife?

Well that is ridiculous. Jesus only died physically. Spiritually he was preaching in the hell of the dead.

What do you call spiritual death? And second, find again for me in scripture, because you haven’t quoted any scripture to me for any of your points, where Jesus preaches in hell.

I think it is unreasonable for the Father not to be upset and mad that his Son was being tortured and killed physically.

I can’t really speak for God’s emotions during this time. You are trying to relate God to your own emotions and it is not doable because you cannot be compared to an Infinite God that is so Holy he names himself I AM because he cannot be compared. All I know is that Christ came for a purpose and that was to save the sinner.

That is all they the executioners could do. Kill him physically. Spiritual death is beyond their abilities and never happened to any aspect of God. Once again God’s wrath wasn’t at Jesus but at the actions of the men.

1 more post I promise!

Dyluck

 

[dyluck]

You are right and therefore if Christ taught to not be afraid of men, then what was in the Cup?
Lastly and I will leave this at this. What did Jesus save us from anyway if God’s wrath wasn’t pointed at Christ. This really would test your knowledge of the true Gospel.

Ok you said earlier that Christ became sin. For this to occur it would have to take on a kind of hypostatic union within Christ for him literally to become sin. This of course never happened which is why the wife said that sin never permeated the flesh of Jesus.

Brother… it’s what the bible says… Deny it if you wish.
Who on earth is “the wife”? The Church? I don’t believe anything that cannot be backed up by solid Word of God, I don’t’ care how much Catholic cannon or Protestant doctrine says. Bible says people flock to teachers the tickle their ears… Because these so-called-teachers are part of the “church” is their doctrine and law considered rock solid that I should blindly follow? What system do you have to exhort?

We are praying for you that you abandon your “romanic gospel” and come to the fullness of truth as given to the Church by Christ himself, and not follow the gospel of men for as long as you think “the spirit moves you to follow this particular man” till you think that the “spirit has called you elsewhere”. You as everyone is is among the elect called by God. Only if you answer the call.

Thank you for your prayers brother and sister. I appreciate your comments and arguments. I do wish you would use more scripture to backup your statements though. Thanks that you consider me among the elect although this can only be tested against the word and God.

Once again God never directed his wrath to the Son.

I challenge you to study this, even if it means Reading the entire bible again and raking it over your eyes till either you come out blind or God reveal His truth to you.
I will say this again. What random, price, payment, judgment did Christ save us from?
A man… Kills his entire family and gets caught.
The murderer, stands before a Judge and is declared Guilty and his punishment is death sentence.
Another, totally innocent man stands before the judge and says “I will take his punishment”.
What then would the judge do? Give the innocent man a lesser sentence and let the murderer go?
No, because that would be unjust… The just judge must put the full measure of the punishment on the innocent man that decided to pay the random for the murderer.
How is the Gospel any different?
Our judgment is eternal destruction in the lake of fire in eternal torment.
Jesus pays our ransom and appeases the perfect justice of God.
God cannot forgive you. Do you not see this? He cannot forgive you because he is Just and you must pay the price for your sin. That is why Jesus is so important. Without someone to take your place, you would go where we all deserve to go… hell.
What then did he do? Died on a cross yes, but that was not all of the ransom people… please understand this. God must put the full measure of the punishment of man onto the one who will take our place. This is eternal damnation. That is why it was God that had to take the punishment and not a finite creature. This is why the JW and Mormons got it totally wrong.
IF Christ was not God, he would not have been able to come out of the wrath of God.

Thanks for hearing me out!

God bless everyone! I am encouraged that everyone here is willing to challenge their doctrine. The question is, how stubborn are we in our ways to potentially ignore truth for creedilism. (Protestant and Catholic alike)

Dyluck

 

[Scardinoz]

Just to throw my own two cents in, it seems to me that baptism takes the place of circumcision in scripture. People were not required to be circumsized in the Old Testament in order to follow God or reach heaven, as I understand it, but Jews were required to do it as a means of identifying oneself as a Jew.

From my reading, I gather that baptism is much like circumcision in that if someone follows Christ but is not baptized, they will still see paradise. However, we are told to be baptized as a means of identifying ourselves as followers of Christ. That said, scripture also makes it clear to me that the head of the household was responsible for ensuring that his sons were circumcized and is now responsible for ensuring that his household is baptized.

That said, it seems obvious to me that a man following Christ has everyone in his household baptized and leads them to be followers of Christ Jesus.

 

[dyluck]

Just to throw my own two cents in, it seems to me that baptism takes the place of circumcision in scripture. People were not required to be circumsized in the Old Testament in order to follow God or reach heaven, as I understand it, but Jews were required to do it as a means of identifying oneself as a Jew.

From my reading, I gather that baptism is much like circumcision in that if someone follows Christ but is not baptized, they will still see paradise. However, we are told to be baptized as a means of identifying ourselves as followers of Christ. That said, scripture also makes it clear to me that the head of the household was responsible for ensuring that his sons were circumcized and is now responsible for ensuring that his household is baptized.

That said, it seems obvious to me that a man following Christ has everyone in his household baptized and leads them to be followers of Christ Jesus.

I agree with you Scardionz that a believing family should get baptized. We have to be carefull that it is not because we have to follow some sacrement. We do it because we love Jesus and it is what we want to do because follownig Jesus simply is what we want to do.
Circumsision is no longer necissary as mentioned many times in the NT, but it is compared directly to Spritual Circumcision (baptism of the holy spirit/regeneration) and not water baptism. Water baptism does not change the way someone acts once finished and therefore is unrecogmizable to anyone. Spritual baptism; however, should be recognized easily as the Lord says “you will know them by their fruits” Matt 7.

Dyluck

 

[Mickey]

We have to be carefull that it is not because we have to follow some sacrement. We do it because we love Jesus and it is what we want to do because follownig Jesus simply is what we want to do.

As followers of Jesus Christ, we are baptized–yes infants also. Jesus Christ established the sacrament of baptism when he was baptized in the Jordan River and the Trinity was revealed. Your derogatory remark about following “some sacrement” [sic] is out of line.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Biblically, the church has no say in the remission of Sin. We are justified because of the merit and virtues of one Jesus Christ. NOT the virtues of MAN (saints)! Find for me in the bible where remission of sins has anything to do on the virtues of MAN
Also, you believe honestly, that there is a temporal punishment for sins that have already been forgiven? Wow what amazing power of God to save. (being sarcastic). You will not find this in the bible anywhere either.
Finally, what does Matt 16:18-19 have anything to do with founding the church on Peter?
The Church is founded on Christ and Christ is the Rock. (Deut. 32:3-4, 15, 18; I Cor. 10:4; Eph. 2:20; I Pet. 2:6), not Peter (Eph. 1:22; 5:23; Col. 1:18).

Matthew Chapter 16: 15-19 (NAB)
15
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
11 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Hi Dyluck,

A cranky baby has been keeping me pretty busy so I don’t have very long, but I wanted to shoot back a quick response to this question. From what I’ve read about the Greek Translation it seemed pretty clear that when he called Peter Caipha it meant that he was the rock that Jesus was establishing his Church on.

The last sentence, which I put in bold addressed your first statement (“the church has no say in the remission of Sin.”). He built his Church on Peter and whatever Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven and whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. Apostolic succession brings us down to the present day where Priests still absolve us of our sins (I guess you could say “loose” our sins") in the confessional.

Wish I had more time right now to go on! The husband has the day off after working all night so I imagine he’ll be on here soon.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Well I wasn’t talking about Simony. If you throw out the so-called abuses of indulgences and are still left with the core Catholic theology on this subject, and are still left with a problem > Man.
I don’t understand the difference between this and Simony… Both do not rely on Christ alone.
First, the only granting of any remission of sin is the blood shed sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Biblically, the church has no say in the remission of Sin. We are justified because of the merit and virtues of one Jesus Christ. NOT the virtues of MAN (saints)! Find for me in the bible where remission of sins has anything to do on the virtues of MAN
Also, you believe honestly, that there is a temporal punishment for sins that have already been forgiven? Wow what amazing power of God to save. (being sarcastic). You will not find this in the bible anywhere either.
Finally, what does Matt 16:18-19 have anything to do with founding the church on Peter?
The Church is founded on Christ and Christ is the Rock. (Deut. 32:3-4, 15, 18; I Cor. 10:4; Eph. 2:20; I Pet. 2:6), not Peter (Eph. 1:22; 5:23; Col. 1:18).

Heya Dyluck,
Ok simony is says that you could buy you way to heaven and then charge someone to for that. Indulgences cut or limit the amount of time in purgatory. So one could be given indulgences, yet if they are condemned to hell they won’t do anything. If a person goes directly to heaven they don’t do anything. It is only if they are in purgatory that they would have any effect upon anything. Hopefully that clarifies it a bit for you. Write back with more of your questions.
Now you wonder how is this possibly. This isn’t anyone being justified by saints or man. They are justified by Jesus. The Church doesn’t say they are saved by anyone else but him. How can this work? Only if there is a purgatory. One in purgatory is has already been accepted to heaven but still needs to be purified. The merit of the saints is entirely biblical as Mt. 16:19 says “whatever you bind shall be bound whatever you lose shall be loosed.” Does this mean the Church decides who gets into heaven? NO! They have no power to do that and doesn’t claim to! WIth indulgences and the merits of the saints it merely means it is exercising the authority given to them by God.
Finally the your last statement I quoted makes little sense. Christ clearly in MT was talking about St. Peter. Your argument makes little sense in Greek and no sense in Aramaic which is what Jesus would have spoken to Jesus. Proof texting with other bible quotes does not change what Jesus said or was talking about.

The Grace of God is a free gift and involves no participation of man. Faith involves participation through the power of the Holy Spirit.
You are right, without fruit, you are a barren tree that is useless to the father. Yet, God says no one does good not one. So how do we produce fruit useful to the Father? In Galatians 5 it explains well as the Holy Spirit which empowers you to live by the spirit. Jesus says “I am the vine, you are the branch”. You cannot grow fruit without God; therefore, you cannot grow in God, without God.

Catholics have always maintained that Grace is the free gift of God. Yet if one doesn’t want it they can turn away from him. Free will is a free gift of God too. And we acknowledge that without God we don’t have life in us. We just say that we have a choice to serve God or to be disobedient. If man didn’t have a choice to be obedient or not then that would mean that God had willed someone to go to hell instead of the person choosing hell themselves. God, therefore, would not be the God of the Bible nor the person whom Jesus has revealed to us. God is just and such not is the way his universe is run.

Can we also make an agreement to limit our posts. This is getting way to long. I’ll respond to everything you wrote here, but we should cut down our debate say a one post limit.

More to come~RSF

 

[Christalone]

Baptism is a very important ordinance for the Christian. But it is not what saves us and it is not part of salvation. We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), not faith and baptism.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[RedSoxFan]

I think you only get part of it. Yes, Jesus had to die. His blood did need to be shed. He did fulfill prophesy in being martyred, tortured and chastised before the hands of men. But there is something greater. You do not believe God plays a part in the crushing of His own son yet you ignore the passage I put up when God PUBLICALLY DISPLAYS Jesus as a PROPITIATION or when GOD crushes his son. You completely ignored it.
Let me give you some food for thought. Man has 2 problems. The Condemnation of Sin and the Power of Sin
I please answer this question for me: What does Jesus save us from?
Please think about this long and hard. If you can, get some passages plz.

OK the death of Jesus since the incarnation was inevitable. The way in which he choose to die is what matters. He could have easily sold out, acquiesed to Satan and ruled over all the kingdoms of the world. Instead he did not. Even the incarnation of Christ was given the choice of free will that I talk so much about. His choice to die in the manner he did was, indeed, the only way for which man could have the hope of living in God’s kingdom. I didn’t ignore you arguments. I just don’t believe him. In the history of Christianity I cannot even date your ideas that God punished his Son. This is something relatively new, as far as I know, and appears to be missing from the historical record in terms of the faithful believing in it. If you can you show historical proof that this concept is at least before say 1800 I would take it more into consideration. Furthermore, God’s role in the passion of the Christ is his allowance of it to happen in the first place. That in itself is a huge involvement. What I am saying is that he allowed everyone to act as they did. Not that he forced them. In that was the Father’s participation. I would say that Jesus saves us from Sin. Original Sin, being a major part of that.

Sorry, by “broke”, I mean Crush.
They were never “at odds”, until Christ became the very curse that God hates…
Do you not know the attributes of God my brother? You would then know the God’s reaction of the abomination of Sin before Him. Remember, it only took 1 sin for the entirety of mankind to be imputed the curse of sin and death and eternal separation from God. 1 sin. Jesus took the sins of many.
Understand that the full measure of God’s wrath would fall on his Son.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son. So, according to what you say in your post makes me think that you believe man took Jesus from God.
GOD GAVE JESUS OVER. Just like Abraham and Isaac. Abraham proved his love to God when he was going to give up his son, the very thing that Abraham loved the most besides God. Do you not see the relationship between the Father and Son/ Abraham and Isaac? Who was it that was going to drive the knife into the heart of Isaac? No one other then his own father. Yet, to you, it’s out of the Question that God would do this for the salvation of man. God is amazing in the sense he takes EVERYTHING in the bible turns your eyes toward Him. This is no exception. Isaac was spared, but God did not spare his own son Jesus. If God did not stop Abraham, Isaac would not have been spared either.

Hmmm. John 3:16 doesn’t really help out your argument here. We acknowledge it is true but understand that to mean God allowed man to manhandle Jesus. I would say it was a bit different than Isaac and Abraham. Though Isaac is a forebear of types to Jesus. The difference Abraham was acting according in obedience to God. Meanwhile, God the Father in this case allowed Jesus’ death to show love. There was no requirement for him to fulfill any sort of obedience to anyone. It is out of the question for God punish the Son. The Son was innocent and the Father understood this. The salvation of man in history does not require that God be the one to physically sacrifice his Son. I guess one of the problems I have with your argument is that it sounds like as if you understand the Father couldn’t even recognize his own Son when the Son carried the weight of sin upon himself.

More to come~RSF

 

[RedSoxFan]

Well the bible says each time Moses was to approach the Pharaoh that God would harden Pharaoh’s heart. When faced with the decision of letting the Hebrews go or not, guess what… Pharaoh hardened his heart… (Which was of course done by God). The bible said the reason for that is so that they would see the Glory of God in the Signs and wonders of God.
I want you to see this… Ex 8:32 for instance. Pharoah hardened his heart (after God had said that he would harden pharaoh’s heart).
Now look here: Exodus 9:7 and 9:12 we see the direct hardening of Pharaohs’ heart at the time of “decision”. How is this stubbornness? It is plain as day.
The bible says every hair on your head is numberd… Not that God knows how many hairs you have but that he declairs how many hairs you will have on your head. Yet God backs away from the acts of man. There is no theology supporting freewillism.

Here I have to wonder where exactly we see the inspiration of God in writing of the bible and the writing style of the biblical authors. I accept the bible is “inspired” but I do not take that to mean the literalness of every word. In this case I attribute that more to the flair of the writers and their inability to understand God as fully as we whom have the luxury of Christ do. As for a theology of free will? This question is as old as Christianity itself! Logically free will is an absolute. Does God damn people to hell based of his own desire and not as a result of their actions from which they had no control? Just answer that.

Where did it say God loved Esau? I hope we aren’t making this stuff up. Cause the bible says hated, if it meant anything else, it would have said it. And the word hate is both quite prominent in Hebrew and Greek in both Romans and Malachi.
Malachi 1:2-3"2I have loved you," says the LORD But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD “Yet I have loved Jacob; 3but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”

So am I supposed to think that God loved the world so much that he sent his only son to save it, except for that jerk Esau? And then go back and read the OT account of Esau and he sounds and shows a better example of Christian living than his brother? From that I am supposed to think God hated him? No, I just think Paul was trying to make a point about God’s favor and not the literalness of God’s love. It’s a bit morbid and inaccurate to believe that God would hate any soul that he has created.

Friends, God is not a tinker toy Santa Claus… He is the I AM. We can’t play God loves without the rest of God’s attributes. What do you think this life is about? Some test? No! That’s some heresy invented in the recent times. This is what no one gets anymore and was preached over and over before (speaking about prodistant reformation). God’s purpose is the revelation of the Attributes of God and the face of Christ… In Him, through Him to Him are all things. That is the purpose. It has nothing to do with man. We just happened to be lucky that God chose to pour His Glory and Mercy on us so that Creation can see the Mercy and Glory of God in creation.

Why then should I care as a creature of creation about someone else receiving God’s grace if it isn’t a free gift to all who seek God?

Does it really matter how “Christian” he acts? We are not saved by works.
And if God chose to not want Esau, then there is nothing man can do to sway God’s immutability.
Look at David… The man was an adulterer yet he was the favored by God.
The fact whom God chooses has nothing to do on the merit/acts of a man. Look how Christ chooses His deciples. The deciples didn’t choose him. Some guy just walks by and points at people and says “come, I will make you fishers of men”. Normally people would have looked at Him like he was a mad man or insane and continued fishing, but they dropped what they did and followed. What we think is fair and how God does what God does is two totally different things.

Given that the Bible is inspired by God I simply do not think that a man God literally hated would have been given such a pleasant and loving disposition. As for David yeah he was an adulterer. So what? He was also great in love for God and deeply penitent about his sins in seeking to make himself right with God. He was successful in this.

More to come~RSF

 

[jlhargus]

Baptism is a very important ordinance for the Christian. But it is not what saves us and it is not part of salvation. We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), not faith and baptism.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

JL: No argument we are justified by faith and are children of God as many as have been baptized, born again by water and Spirit, GAL 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] We are not justified by FAITH ALONE, that would be dead faith.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Well i missed this one when responding. We have to cut down our response length.

So God had no part in the punishment for the sins of man yet Jesus does the will of God by dieing on the cross. I honestly don’t get it sir.
Do you believe that Jesus would have not chosen to die for us? If so, would God then have been a liar? No God can’t lie, so then you would then say Jesus wasn’t the messiah. But then you say predestination is doesn’t fit the bible and God. Do you not see the logic here? I am not saying that Free Will can hinder God’s power, I am saying that Free Will can only really be a Man’s perception… The work of God is far greater then our comprehension. Is it too far fetched to think that God has control over everything? Everything happens for the Glory of God… are your actions and choices outside of that scope? Hopefully not if you believe in the same infinitely powerful God as written I our SAME bible.

Of course God has a part in the punishment of the sins of Man. That’s what is decided when we are judged at the end. As for God I’m not saying I understand all of the mystery. I’m just saying that my sins are my own and not his that he destined me to commit. All happens in his domain.

The will of God cannot be broken. Nothing happens outside the will of God, “free will” or lack thereof.
Since you don’t believe in predestination, let me ask you another question: Why does sin exist?
Think about that for a moment and try to answer that question.

Easy Sin exists because man choose to be disobedient.

Babies are a prime example of the Will of God and Romans 1, 8 and 9. You tell me how many babies died in the flood? God curses generations to eternal damnation in the old testament (Deut 23). Where is the will of man here? If a baby dies today, you may believe it goes to heaven, but I submit that the bible says the only way to the father is through the son.
Baby baptism can not declare them saved.

Question for all pedobaptists: If a baby dies, does a baptized baby go to heaven and a unbaptized baby go to hell?

No number was given for babies dying in the flood. The only curse of generations that man has is Original Sin. I know the Deut 23 account. More author than inspired if you ask me. Also a great justification at the time it was written to comment about the relationship between them and the jews. The Church has never officially declared where dead unbaptized babies go. It was thought by Augustine that limbo might be a fair place for them to go. Though this was largely dismissed as being accurate. I believe they are given the grace of God given what I know of God in the bible. I too have a question. If an unbaptized baby is too young and cannot possibly know what faith even is do they go to hell if they die?

Ok there was more written in this post that I’m going to cut out due to time constraints and that they are answered basically in a post I did out of order. Did i mention we ned to cut down our responses to a more focused one? More freewill vs total depravity stuff.

More to come~RSF

 

[RedSoxFan]

What do you call spiritual death? And second, find again for me in scripture, because you haven’t quoted any scripture to me for any of your points, where Jesus preaches in hell.

I can’t really speak for God’s emotions during this time. You are trying to relate God to your own emotions and it is not doable because you cannot be compared to an Infinite God that is so Holy he names himself I AM because he cannot be compared. All I know is that Christ came for a purpose and that was to save the sinner.

That is all they the executioners could do. Kill him physically. Spiritual death is beyond their abilities and never happened to any aspect of God. Once again God’s wrath wasn’t at Jesus but at the actions of the men.

Spiritual death would be oblivion or hell. Try 1st Peter 3:18-19. Trying to relate what I think God’s emotions would be. I think he would manifest earthquakes and shrouds ripping to show man, not as a reaction to our actions, the evil of our actions at calvary.

More to come~RSF

 

[RedSoxFan]

Lastly and I will leave this at this. What did Jesus save us from anyway if God’s wrath wasn’t pointed at Christ. This really would test your knowledge of the true Gospel.

The problem I have with this is that it is flawed in the sense that you make it sound as if God was shooting our wrath at us and Jesus jumped in front of the God wrath bullet. Jesus saved us from Sin, Spiritual Death, and severance from God.

Who on earth is “the wife”? The Church? I don’t believe anything that cannot be backed up by solid Word of God, I don’t’ care how much Catholic cannon or Protestant doctrine says. Bible says people flock to teachers the tickle their ears… Because these so-called-teachers are part of the “church” is their doctrine and law considered rock solid that I should blindly follow? What system do you have to exhort?

The wife is the Church. The word of God? Whose interpretation? People can’t agree on the color of they sky let, and biblical matters are a 1000x more complex. As for systems to exhort, Catholicism. Yep the universal Church. Though for not knowing I doubt the ignorant are punished. Only punishable if they know God’s Church and turn their back on it as it’s the same as turning your back on him. This is extrodinarily difficult to acertain. I’ll pray that you’ll figure this out in the course of your life. Though I don’t think this would necessarily damn you if you don’t.

Thank you for your prayers brother and sister. I appreciate your comments and arguments. I do wish you would use more scripture to backup your statements though. Thanks that you consider me among the elect although this can only be tested against the word and God.

I tend not too as much because I see that a lot of people take it out of context. That and I don’t yet speak the biblical languages so while i read the bible I feel that I still miss a lot by that failure. Others on this site do speak biblical languages and others would love to use plenty of bible verses. It’s just kind of random that the second person you talked to does not overly much.

I challenge you to study this, even if it means Reading the entire bible again and raking it over your eyes till either you come out blind or God reveal His truth to you.
I will say this again. What random, price, payment, judgment did Christ save us from?
A man… Kills his entire family and gets caught.
The murderer, stands before a Judge and is declared Guilty and his punishment is death sentence.
Another, totally innocent man stands before the judge and says “I will take his punishment”.
What then would the judge do? Give the innocent man a lesser sentence and let the murderer go?
No, because that would be unjust… The just judge must put the full measure of the punishment on the innocent man that decided to pay the random for the murderer.
How is the Gospel any different?
Our judgment is eternal destruction in the lake of fire in eternal torment.
Jesus pays our ransom and appeases the perfect justice of God.
God cannot forgive you. Do you not see this? He cannot forgive you because he is Just and you must pay the price for your sin. That is why Jesus is so important. Without someone to take your place, you would go where we all deserve to go… hell.
What then did he do? Died on a cross yes, but that was not all of the ransom people… please understand this. God must put the full measure of the punishment of man onto the one who will take our place. This is eternal damnation. That is why it was God that had to take the punishment and not a finite creature. This is why the JW and Mormons got it totally wrong.
IF Christ was not God, he would not have been able to come out of the wrath of God.

I will read the bible again (infinite times of books read, 3 times read front to back). I need to get a 20 minute bible for a year I think. But I will read it front to end including the books that yours left out! Christ is King!

Peace Dyluck,

RedSoxFan

 

[Christalone]

JL: No argument we are justified by faith and are children of God as many as have been baptized, born again by water and Spirit, GAL 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] We are not justified by FAITH ALONE, that would be dead faith.

Baptism has not saving power, unless one believes in works based salvation, which the bible says is not so.

 

[AlegreFe]

Love for God is a choice.

Love is a choice! Agreed.

When they entered into the church they knew the language of faith, but out in the parking lot they couldn’t wait to get away as they honked their horns and gave each other the finger.

Then they are not really Catholic and someone has to let them know that is not the way to be Catholic. It shames me that a Catholic would act this way. Not that I’m perfect; I’m far from it. It’s an every day struggle and I have to live out my faith in “fear & trembling” the way Paul teaches us.

Does the Confirmation system encourage sincerity among Catholics or discourage it?

What in the world are you saying? Confirmation “system?” Have you ever been to a CCD class? An RCIA class? A Catholic Mass? A Catholic bible study? Confirmation candidates are taught the faith. They are taught to live like Christ. Those who do not live like Christ either did not pay attention in class or were poorly catechised. I see more of the latter, unfortunately.

If a person feels that they don’t have a choice are they more or less likely to pursue the challenge put in front of them? If decisions were made for them before they knew what was happening, are they more likely to revolt?

Decisions are not made for them. Children are just taught the faith and from there they can make their own decision when it comes time for Confirmation. If they were poorly taught, more than likely they will leave the Church eventually. If a Catholic knows their faith really well, they will never leave the Church. That is why it is very important for CCD teachers and RCIA instructors and Catholic religion teachers to know their faith inside & out and to teach it well. I think Apologetics should also be taught in Catholic schools; so when people like you approach a Catholic, they know exactly what to say and they won’t shy away and become victims of protestant evangelization.

I don’t have the answers, but I wonder. Just because I sound like a good Catholic doesn’t mean I am a good Catholic. Saying the right words isn’t enough, we have to mean them.

I agree with you here 100%!! But I have to add; just because there are a few Catholics who do not live out their faith and do not have a relationship with Christ, does not mean that the Catholic Church is not the one started by Jesus. You have to understand that very clearly. Just because Judas was in the mix with the other Apostles does not mean that Jesus was not there with them to teach them.

We surrender to Him by choice. Even to learn a language, it is a choice.

Well it’s not a choice when we are babies. As we grow, we learn our language from our parents. They don’t wait for us to grow up so that we can make a choice on whether to learn the family language or not. It is a given. I guess you did not understand my post. That is why I used language, not so much as a metaphor for faith but for something that is taught to us because we need it in order to communicate. Well in order to live out our faith, it needs to be taught to us by our parents. They should not wait for us to get older to make our own decision. I would call those parents irresponsible.

A Catholic friend of mine visited Vatican City a few years ago. In standing within its walls she was keenly aware that this was not a place that Jesus would want to stay.

Those feelings come from the devil. Her perception is twisted.

Jesus would likely not be on the side of this regime.

How do you know? It is only your perception of what Vatican City is that you think Jesus would not want to be there.

She was over whelmed by the wealth, luxury and greed.

What greed? What wealth & luxury?

Since talking to her I have met others who feel the same way. The Catholic church is an organization run by people, many of whom are seeking God, but as is always the case, many of whom are not interested in what God wants.

Again, how do you know all of this? What makes you so sure?!

(Cont…)

 

[AlegreFe]

(…cont.)

You said, “I don’t have to figure anything out for myself.” From my perspective, this must mean you are disengaged in your relationship with God.

Don’t you wish! No, I am not disengaged in my relationship with God. You have no idea, just as I have no idea about your relationship with God.

When I say I don’t have to figure it out for myself, I mean I don’t have to make up my own religion & faith so as to live with God. Jesus established all of that and gave it to me as a gift. He set all the rules & boundaries for us to live a life here on earth so that we can be free to make the right decisions. But someone has to teach us first. Someone out there has to carry on the faith so that we can learn. What better people than our own parents. As parents we are to love our children. Love is wanting what’s best for our children and that is heaven. What better way than to teach our children the faith.

Don’t tell me that you would not teach your child the faith. You would wait for them to grow up to figure life out all by themselves without any teaching from you? Come on, be serious! You would have your children grow up without any faith at all? And you would tell yourself, “well I don’t want to force Jesus on them. … I would want for my children to make their own decision when they get older.” Be serious! Think about it!

The church is not supposed to tell you what to believe.

What?! You’re not serious are you? That’s why Jesus established HIS Church. To teach us!

I believe that Jesus would say you have taken the lazy way out. God wants you to be in a relationship with Him, not eavesdropping on what He is saying to other people and using it for your own benefit.

This is too funny! So funny, that it does not deserve a response. But allow me anyway; you have twisted everything I said. You would just love it if you were right and I was wrong.

I am not a perfect man and my perspective is limited. I can only see so much and it isn’t always clear - I’ve tried to say what I see.

This is exactly why Jesus gave us HIS Church! When something is not clear to us, we look to the Church for answers. The Church might not have all the answers as to “why” and “how” certains things are the way they are, but she certainly has answers when you ask “what” for all things of faith & morals!

Please understand that I am not claiming to have divine authority/vision of who you are and what God thinks. I am just saying what I see and I may not be right because I am not God.

You are saying what you see? We walk by Faith and not by sight! And it is precisely because you and others are not God why Jesus established HIS Church. We are not our own “gods” and our own “popes” that is why we have the One & Only Church. Jesus already assigned His own Vicar here on earth, Peter. And all of Peter’s successors have taught us down the line and kept us in check as a shepherd should. All those protestant denominations are there because whoever started each of those denominations were acting as their own little “popes” and “gods” because they do not want to know the truth right in front of them, the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ Himself.