No one here believes in works-based salvation, so your accusation must be flawed. Baptism has salvific power in itself, as attested by the numerous times Christ said one must be “born of water” or tell his disciples to go out and baptize.
To expand on what you said, the Vatican has valued all its precious artistic treasures as worth 1 euro. These works prove no greed whatsoever, because their purpose, to glorify God, is noble. Neither does the Vatican consider the art it holds to be it’s property. Rather, they consider it to belong to all mankind, and those at the Vatican are only there to safeguard it.
JL: Got any evidence or am I just to accept your opinion. Scripture tells us differently. GAL 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] We are not justified by FAITH ALONE, that would be dead faith.
They might feel manipulated only if they do not understand the Catholic faith. This is the reason for Catholic parents to teach the faith properly. Parents need to be the primary teachers of the faith. Many parents think they should leave it up to CCD teachers and religion teachers. That’s the biggest mistake a parent could make. And for this reason, many Catholics have left the Church. It’s sad, but true.
LOL
I agree that some might go through the motions but not to get the rest of us off their backs. It is because they just don’t understand what Confirmation is. They do not understand their own Catholic faith and so they just “go with the flow” so to speak. My 15 year old daughter made her Confirmation last year. Many of the confirmandi there seemed to be in “lala land” and did not seem to participate. It is sad but very true. My daughter on the other hand, along with the other confirmandi who were homeschooled knew exactly what was happening.
That’s just the problem. People tend to want to do things spontaneously. That is not the way to live. You seem to go by your feelings a lot and what you see. You tend to be so drawn by your own feelings that you forget what really matters. You seem to forget Jesus and what He said. We walk by faith and not by sight or feelings or our own perception or understanding of things. That is why Jesus established His Church. And He gave us free will to continue to walk with Him in His Church as we grow in our faith.
If a baby is born and the doctor notices something wrong with the baby and because of that the parents have the baby baptized right there in the hospital and then the baby dies, the baby will definitely make it straight to heaven! Guarenteed!
Yes it does! Baptism saves. St. Peter makes that very clear in his first epistle. Not only that, Jesus told us Himself about being born of water & spirit.
That does also! That is why we do not believe in OSAS. Even though we are baptized, it doesn’t mean we can do whatever we want. We still have to live as good Christians and have faith in Jesus and hope for the day He returns.
We leave them in the mercy of God. The parents of such a life might have had the desire to baptize as soon as the infant was to be born, but because of such unfortunate events, it could not happen. But their desire to want the baby baptized could very well save the baby. Our prayers and Masses offered up for the baby could also help. We just have to trust in the mercy of God.
Unfortunately for that individual, he might not be “saved” because of the life he led. But we cannot say for certain. The Church does not condemn anyone to hell just by the life they led. We do not know men’s hearts and therefore we cannot say whether they will end up in hell.
Such a poor understanding of what Christ meant. It is because you do not know what it is to experience the new birth. But back to the original Question…as has already been stated, the simple answer is that nowhere in scripture was an infant ever baptized. The best you can do is infer that when someone was baptized with ‘their whole household’, it meant they baptized the babies too. That’s all you get from God’s word. You can apply the matter of circumcision and it fits well, but nowhere does scripture tell us to apply circumcision to baptism. the fact is that the clear precedent in the NT is that it was only people who made an intelligent commitment to Christ who were baptized. Anything is else speculation. But then that never stopped the RCC from doing business.
Don’t forget it was the Catholic Church that gave you God’s word in book form. The book you refer to.
Since man is of twofold nature, soul and body, the purification [of baptism] also is two-fold, the one incorporeal for the incorporeal part, and the other bodily for the body: the water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul; that we may draw near unto God, ‘having our heart sprinkled’ by the Spirit, ‘and our body washed with pure water’ (Heb. 10:22). When going down, therefore, into the water, think not of the bare element, but look for salvation by the power of the Holy Spirit: for without both you cannot possibly be made perfect. It is not I that say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter: for He says, ‘Except a man be born anew’, and He adds these words, ‘of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’. **St. Cyril of Jerusalem **
What does “whole household” mean to you? We also have the witness of the earliest Christians.
Yes it does.
At first, they were all adult converts. Once converted, they baptized their families–whole households–including infants.
It is you who are speculating.
There is no need to get angry.
It seems to me that every single word that you type is simply “your interpretation of scripture.” What is it exactly that makes you right and the Church that Jesus founded on Earth with Peter, incorrect. Trusting your own interpretation so blindly seems proud to me.
JL: I was a bible only, non-denominational, Protestant before becoming Catholic. Baptized at age 27, 2am, March 3rd in a river with snow flurries. That is when I was born again or from above by water and Spirit, as our Lord tells is in Jn3:5, after Nicodemus asked HOW in Jn3:4.
JL: Phil3:3 For WE ARE THE CIRCUMCISION, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Baptism unites us with Christ. It is through those waters that we are joined with Him and we find forgiveness… Lets say someone was on their way to get baptized and on the way they got hit by a flying cow and were killed on the spot. Would this mean that they were going to spend eternity in Hell? Is it the act of getting wet that brings salvation, or is it the desire to do it? Is someone actually saved the moment they sincerely desire to be?
Jesus Said that Baptism is given for the forgiveness of Sins. If you read Peter he say’s everyone must be baptised. he never said only certain people. Whole households also means everyone in the house. THere were baby’s back then. Now where does it say that Baptism gives people the ability to process the good news and respond to it? I thought baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. When you are baptised you receive the gift of the Holy spirit, it is the gift of the Holy SPirit that cleans your from your sins.To bring it back to the original question…
Some non-Catholics do not have baptism for infants because the practice as seen in scripture was not to baptize babies, but to approach people with the ability to process the good news and respond to it. Their response was baptism. The only thing in scripture that points to the idea that infant baptism makes sense is the idea that people had their “whole households” baptized. This doesn’t necessarily include infants, though it could. As baptism is presented in scripture as it presents people who are directly engaging in it, they are people who are wrestling with or have accepted the message of the gospel. Babies do not have the ability to reason it out, so many non-Catholics to not baptize babies.
You dropped into Christianese. When the previous post was talking about reason it was a break from the doctrine of original sin. The infant can not “sin” thus doesn’t need forgiveness given to him by parental and church elders actions. without the intent to go against God there is no sin.
You need to go back to the beginning. Adam and eve brought original sin upon us. It was by the blood of Christ that original sin was washed away. Tell me this, Where did Jesus go right after his death on the cross, why did he go there, and what did he do? THis may help you better. Answer this first.
But without baptism there is original sin is there not?