Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[dyluck]

dyluck, I am not trying to upset you, I do not agree with you and how you interpret scripture. Thats all. Scripture cannot contradict scripture. According to your interpretations it does.

You say we have free will. You do not understand that predis. does not take away free will. I go by the teachings of the Church not my own. You are trying to tell us scripture but it does not line up. I have showed you. You get angry with me because I did read the scripture you wrote. I do not agree with what you say, I do agree with Mickey because he goes by the teachings of the Church and it lines up.

Mickey nor I do not have the wisdom nor authority to define scripture. We know that. We know that scripture must tie into tradition and written, Only the church has both, so only the church can understand what God was relaying to us.

Again I understand you are going to refuse to talk to me, but please don’t do it because I did not read your scripture you gave me. I did, I just do not see it as you see it. I see it as the Church teaches it because with the way they teach it, it makes sense. The way you quote it, it does not.

And again I do not understand how you can agree with Apostolic succession, and then not see that the Priest is not frogiving sin on his own authority it was given to him through God. Again we see 2 very different things.

Maybe I misunderstood. Do you agree with apostolic succession. Do you believe that Jesus gave peter and the Apostles the power to forgive sin through the Holy Spirit.

Hi rinnie, I do apologize, I did get upset a little. I just felt like my point was not being heard thats all. I did feel Mickey was being a lil rude too and that just fed the fire. I understand that you do not have to believe what I believe, but I do encourage you to read the passages and key points that I have brought up on your own and question yourself on stuff and teachers thats all. I have questioned my doctrine and am significanly no longer the same type of protestant as I was raised (once Arminian now leaning quite a bit more to Calvin side of things). Arminians believe in resistable grace and I believe in irrisistable grace for instance.
If after you do come to the same conclusion, then so be it, I would be happy that you challenged some doctrine thats all.

I do believe that Jesus gave Peter and the Apostils the power of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was not given the power of forgivness of Sins (at least in any scripture I have read anyway). Forgiveness was given to Christ alone through the redemption paid by his blood. When I ask for forgiveness it is to God alone (unless I have sinned against another brother, then i need to ask their forgivness also).
One of the greatest purposes of the holy spirit among other things was to convict men of sin, bring change in men (baptism of the Holy Spirit) and bring repentance. To bring about the reformation, reconsiliation and conformity to the image of God etc.

What do you think?

 

[dyluck]

Time to get down to the nitty gritty.

1 cor 1-6 Do you not know that the Holy ones will judge the world.

Rom 2:6 It says quite clear only God can judge mans secrets.

James 4:11-12 Who are we to judge our neighbor

Matthew 7

Romans 14:10 Why then do you judge your brother? Or you why do you look down on your brother For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written. As I live says the Lord every knee shall bend before me and every tongue shall give me praise. So that EACH OF US SHALL GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD.

tHEN LET US NO LONGER JUDGE ONE ANOTHER B UT RATHER RESOLVE NEVER TO PUT A STUMBLING BLOCK OF HINDRANCE IN THE WAY OF A BROTHER.

I could go on and on. But it would do me no good. The point is no one is without sin to cast any stones. All we can do is do our best to help a Brother or Sister in need, pray for them when they are in trouble. Sure we can try to talk to them, try to help, but we are in no position to judge them or their sin. Only God knows a heart and God only. It is up to us to defend ourself to one person and one person only. And that is God. ANd it will Be GOD that will render his judgement. I have no right to judge anyone. And I pray I will never do that.

Right on for getting those scriptures out there rinnie!
You are right, we must pray for them. There must be an assement even in your mind to get to the point in which a fellow brother or sister is comitting sin before there would be a need to pray for them to be released from the yolk of slavery to that sin right? I do not believe Judgment in the sense of assesement and rebuke is a bad thing with your fellow believers. It would be very bad to those of the world unless you are sharing the gospel in which they must know from what they are being saved.

In Romans 14, it is discussing the nature in which other belivers may differ in the practice of their faith and in this is what Paul is addressing judgement. Read the chapter of Romans 14 down please

James 4 is a tough one. I can honestly say I don’t have much to say as this is pretty blatent to not Judge.

My question is then unless James 4 is talking about Judging specific things,
Then 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 completely contridicts it.
Unless we focus on Verse 5 were we see beyond a simple rebuke to giving over a person to their Sin for the purpose of Good in the end.

Then later in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 you see another contridiction… How can we work this out because I believe that the bible does not contridict iteslf and I think the key is in the interpertation of James 4 and what Jesus meant by “the law and judging the law”. Maybe how they go about their practices regarding the law such as we see in Romans 14?

What do you think?

 

[rinnie]

I agree with alot of what you are saying, and it is in line with not only scripture but Catholic teaching as well.

Oh before I forget MickeyHe is actually one of the sweatest people you will meet on this Forum. But its hard to warm up to him at first. The first time I dealt with him he put me on his ignore list. I was only put on that list a few times. Now he’s my best buddy. We still disagree on things, but we agree on more than disagree.

Give him time. Now back to point. Yes Jesus died for our sins and only God can forgive sin. I agree 100%. But we have to go from O.T to N.T. to define scripture remember that. IT all ties in. ITs a mystery and when you solve it its awesome.

Okay now go to John 20:20-23 Now remember when Jesus gave this scripture ten of the eleven were in the locked room. Jesus said Peace be with you. As the Father sent me so I send you, then he breathed on them. Receive the Holy Spirit. If YOU forgive the sins of any they are forgiven. If YOU retain the sins of any they are retained.

Okay now we call this Holy Orders today in the Church. But see where we got it. Now never ever is it on their own power. God knew we were sinners and would need to be forgiven. SInce Christ entrusted his apostles the ministry of reconciliation Jn 20:23 2 Cor 5:18 bishops are who are the successors and priests, the bishops continue to exercise this ministry. But that is why they have the power. They are acting on behalf of God. Now if they were acting on their own I agree its worthless. But that was given to be passed on.

Now here is the difference between venial sin and mortal sin. Now granted Jesus said if you sin in your mind you have sinned, But here is the difference if you look at a women and think wow wonder what sex would be like with her and you are married you have commited adultery in your mind. We both agree with that. Thats venial.

But if you react on that sin, that’s mortal. Venial can be forgiven with one and one with God in your mind. But if you react on it, its mortal. now if you are in mortal sin, you must go to the Church and ask for forgiveness from God. Now you must confess that mouth, repent and re-unite yourself with the Church. But the thought did not put you in grave danger. Only a Priest can release you of Mortal sin. God has a reason for this, While you may not agree with it, or I may not like it, its still Gods way. See what I mean.

See the Church has so much Tradition, that is why they can understand the scripture better. Plus the Apostles had the Power of the HS to define it. God left that to the Church because if he didn’t who would ever know what God really wants us to know.

Now Since Jesus gave the Apostles the Power to absolve sin, nothing can keep us from getting into heaven. Now O.T. N.T ties in. Remember when Jesus went down to release the souls because they were not Baptised and Baptism is forgiveness of sin. Now nothing can hold us back but sin. Original sin is what we are born with. Baptism wiped that away. Now actual sin. what we do is all that can keep us out of heaven now. That is why Jesus had to go and release the O.T. souls that still had Original sin. Thats what kept them from getting into heaven. I have to get off now, But please ask me any questions and I will answer whatever question you have. If I don’t know the right answer I will get it for you from Father. Will check back with you tommorow. I am sure you have alot of questions.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey!
Welcome back.

Greetings my good friend. Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[rinnie]

Right on for getting those scriptures out there rinnie!
You are right, we must pray for them. There must be an assement even in your mind to get to the point in which a fellow brother or sister is comitting sin before there would be a need to pray for them to be released from the yolk of slavery to that sin right? I do not believe Judgment in the sense of assesement and rebuke is a bad thing with your fellow believers. It would be very bad to those of the world unless you are sharing the gospel in which they must know from what they are being saved.

In Romans 14, it is discussing the nature in which other belivers may differ in the practice of their faith and in this is what Paul is addressing judgement. Read the chapter of Romans 14 down please

James 4 is a tough one. I can honestly say I don’t have much to say as this is pretty blatent to not Judge.

My question is then unless James 4 is talking about Judging specific things,
Then 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 completely contridicts it.
Unless we focus on Verse 5 were we see beyond a simple rebuke to giving over a person to their Sin for the purpose of Good in the end.

Then later in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 you see another contridiction… How can we work this out because I believe that the bible does not contridict iteslf and I think the key is in the interpertation of James 4 and what Jesus meant by “the law and judging the law”. Maybe how they go about their practices regarding the law such as we see in Romans 14?

What do you think?

See alot of scripture is not for you or I its for the Church and Priests. Let me explain. After I explain and you go back you will see what I mean.

In 1 Cor:5 Paul is taking to the Priest, to the Church. He is saying incest is unacceptable. It is an unacceptable teaching of the Church. He said if someone in your church is participating in this excommunicate them. Or if someone is teaching this is not against God throw them out of the Church.

Read the first couple lines it say if a son sleeps with his fathers wife. See thats his mother. ITs wrong. ITs a sin. Thats how the Priests know what is right and wrong. Thats how the Pope can talk about morals of the faith. See what I am saying,

See I was like you at first, My Dad would say read the bible, I said I did Dad its the same book after book, but they mix me up. Thats when he said because the bible is for instruction. Once you understand what it says then you can read it in context with scripture. Thats why you should pay more attention in church. The Church is who teaches what it means. He is the one that told me scripture cannot contradict scripture. IF it does you don’t understand it. He said alot of this is teaching the PRiests so they can teach us,

BUt see its for the Church to discipline us not us discipline eachother. Thats why you and I are not priests. Thats why when we confess our sins we are not only forgiven the Priest like Paul is telling us you can’t do this. ANd shows us why.

Now remember Jews had the Old law. THis is the most confusing part of the bible. Here is How my Dad told me. Paul was like a genuis in scripture of the Old law. He was persecuting the church, but until Jesus OPENED HIS MIND to scripture he could not see the new law either. Thats why God probally picked him, because he was so smart in the jewish law. now what paul was teaching was this, under the old law if you sinned you had to make a sin offering. We don’t anymore under the new Law Jesus was the offering. See faith did not come into play until Jesus. That came from Grace. THats why when paul says we are justified by faith apart from the works of law he is saying justification is divine sonship given in baptism.

But them people got mixed up. they tried to separate faith from works. Paul meant works of the old law making a sin offering. Thats why Jas2:14-18 had to set us straight. Works of the law and words and faith are two different things.

take some time, read this in a different light. See if :newidea:goes off now. It will but give it time. But always pray to the Holy Spirit to help you also. Once you understand what the Church teaches and then go back and read scripture it actually becomes fun. And you understand so much. Try that today. Let me know if anything happens.

 

[Mickey]

The first time I dealt with him he put me on his ignore list.

Hi rinnie. I forgot about that. I promise to never put you on my ignore list again.

Let us now look at a passage from St Maximos the Confessor:

One should not be startled or astonished because God the Father judges no one but has given all judgement to the Son (cf. John 5:22). The Son teaches us, ‘Do not judge, so that you may not be judged’ (Matt. 7:1). ‘Do not condemn, so that you may not be condemned’ (Luke 6:37). St Paul likewise says, ‘Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes’ (1 Cor. 4:5); and ‘By judging another you condemn yourself’ (Rom. 2:1). But men have given up weeping for their own sins and have taken judgment away from the Son. They themselves judge and condemn one another as if they were sinless. ‘Heaven was amazed at this’ (Jer. 2:12. LXX) and earth shuddered, but men in their obduracy are not ashamed.

He who busies himself with the sins of others, or judges his brother on suspicion, has not yet even begun to repent or to examine himself so as to discover his own sins, which are truly heavier than a great lump of lead; nor does he know why a man becomes heavy-hearted when he loves vanity and chases after falsehood (cf. Ps. 4:2). That is why, like a fool who walks in darkness, he no longer attends to his own sins but lets his imagination dwell on the sins of others, whether these sins are real or merely the products of his own suspicious mind.
St Maximos the Confessor

 

[Mickey]

See alot of scripture is not for you or I its for the Church and Priests.

Hi rinnie.

The Sacred Scriptures are for everyone–you, me, the Church, the clergy, the successful business man, the homeless on the street…

But I know what you are trying to say. You are talking about interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures–which must be understood through the lens of Sacred Tradition.

Interpretation is where things become twisted.

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie.

The Sacred Scriptures are for everyone–you, me, the Church, the clergy, the successful business man, the homeless on the street…

But I know what you are trying to say. You are talking about interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures–which must be understood through the lens of Sacred Tradition.

Interpretation is where things become twisted.

Yes Mick, thats exactly what I mean. If you have time, maybe you could go back to the scriptures he asked me about and help him to understand how they tie into eachother.

I hope you can help him also to understand the full meaning of scripture.

Dyluck let Mickey help you. He does have a really good understanding of the scripture. Better than I at explaining. You can trust him, he will not lead you astray. I have a pretty busy day today so I may be in and out. Maybe out most of the day. It depends how the day goes. And tommorow is my day off, Thats Mothers day I run with my Mom all day. So maybe Mickey has more time the next couple of days.

But ask anything you want, and like I said if I can’t answer or Mickey can’t we will get you the right answer. But it may take time. I like you dyluck learn everyday.

 

[Mickey]

I hope you can help him also to understand the full meaning of scripture.

Hi rinnie. Thank you for your confidence. Someone who is not familiar with the Apostolic faith, must open their eyes before they can see. They must open their ears before they can hear. It does not matter what I might offer to a person who is convinced by the Calvinist theology. They have received their understanding and interpretation from the theology of Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) and those refromers after him who continued with his flavor of theology. In my experience, if someone from a Catholic or Orthodox background offers the Apostolic teaching, it is either ignored or refused. It is the Holy Spirit who will let them see the light and hear the truth. With God, all things are possible. I do not say these things in a spirit of uncharity. Dyluck is my brother in Christ, and I will pray for him.

Have a great day today–and tomorrow with your mom!

God bless you!

 

[kalt]

And here we have the proof that** you** can’t know if you are saved or not. God knows if you will eventually be saved, not because he has predestined you to eternal death (Jesus’ offer is for all), but because he is eternal, but you can’t know.

Until Judas betrayed Jesus, his “fruits” looked pretty darned good, didn’t they. To others and I’m sure to himself. Who among the apostles could tell from the other’s fruits which of them would betray Jesus?

But if you insist that you know you’re saved and that unlike Judas, you won’t do something that surprises even yourself…

I have to ask, though, what makes you think that you know your own future? What makes you think that you are a Saint and not a Judas? How do you know?

Dyluck, you didn’t answer this post. I hope you will, because I’m very interested in your answer. How do you know? Or do you not know, and hope that you are one of the elect that is predestined to Heaven?

 

[dyluck]

Dyluck, you didn’t answer this post. I hope you will, because I’m very interested in your answer. How do you know? Or do you not know, and hope that you are one of the elect that is predestined to Heaven?

Hi Kalt,

Sorry I forgot to answer that post. There are so many
For that I will give you a long-winded answer I hope you read it thoroughly. I am prepared for any question you have.

Well, I am sure you would agree that salvation, although is promised, doesn’t actually come into play until we die when we will indeed see, first hand, the fruits of Christ’s sacrifice before the Father for our sins. We will see our names written in the book of life. We will indeed enter through the gates of Heaven for eternity being completely justified and no longer waiting judgment.
If you fell off a boat and looked at the life raft still on the boat technically cannot yell “I’m saved” until they have been brought out of the water and are standing on safe ground. What if someone anticipated you would fall off and put a lifejacket on you? Now you have a greater assurance you will be saved in the event you end up in the water.

Paul says "run the race as if to win the prize” and on Timothy’s death bed says that he has “ran the race” (finished). Meaning that you don’t convert and then live your life like you were before, but continuously living your life for God till you die. Is that assurance, no, but does lead into my point.

So how then do we know we are saved is probably one of the hardest questions asked!
I am not sure about the Catholic faith, but in a lot of protestant circles, the doctrine of Assurance has been pushed to the wayside and clouded by a false sense of security in what I call heresy of “the sinner’s prayer” / a man’s “judgment” of absolute declaration of salvation. Worse yet, the doctrine of works in which you can be assured of your salvation if you do good works unto the Lord (which would then negate the truth in the fact we are justified only by the merit of Jesus Christ). Although there is significant doctrinal differences between Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant. Like the big differences between Catholics and Orthodox, the difference in denominations of Protestant can be quite significant also.

When someone says they are Protestant doesn’t really give a very good representation of the core doctrines of that particular individual or their Church. If you are discussing doctrine with a Protestant, be sure to ask their denomination and what core beliefs they hold to. In-fact, you can really narrow it down by asking them if they hold more to Arminian or Calvin systematic theology. There are lots of funny aliens in between, but those seem to be the main two.

Now to answer your question. I am Baptist by denomination (which doesn’t say much for my doctrine as there are many different types of Baptists –). I hold to Calvin reformed theology and is not as widely accepted by North American protestants as they are very much Arminian or holding to teaching that tickles their ears like this “best life now” Joel Osteen mentality. Historic Protestantism/puritans and Early Baptists (puritan separatists) held to Calvin and reformed systematic theology in which the understanding of the Immutability and Supremacy of God holds first and foremost when it comes to the position of man before God like free will etc. (Everything God does is for Himself including loving us). The term of Assurance (like the term “trinity”), came from St. Augustine as a named doctrine.

Anyway, short history lesson there In argument to assurance, I believe in “perseverance of the saints” and “irresistible grace”. So for me, the question isn’t “once saved always saved (OSAS)”, but more-so “never changed, never saved”. God being the only one that can change or regenerate someone (Monergism). Unfortunately, that belief leaves absolutely no power in man to save themselves. The ability to have faith comes from God, the ability to hear and respond to the Gospel comes from God, the ability to seek God comes from God, the ability to do good works is through God etc. Salvation being the supernatural act of God alone.
Predestination passages aside, even if you believe that everything such as hearing the gospel, changing of the person comes from God through God and for God, not because God foreknew our merit (like “free will” in choosing him or something), and link that to His “foreknowledge” you can come to no other conclusion but “Predestination”. That in itself is an assurance if indeed you pass the test ~2 Corinthians 13:5. So that is the question. How do you pass this test Paul was talking about? Herein we will see our assurance.
Notice here “or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?”.
How do you know that Jesus Christ is in you? Would supernatural conformity to the image of Christ not be your very core nature if you are a new creature and Jesus lives through you?

cont next post

 

[dyluck]

cont from previous post

If you are indeed an elected child of God, God chose to bestow grace on you; you cannot fall out of the grace of God and hands of the Father. The core doctrine is again, the Doctrine of Assurance. i.e. God chose Israel as His chosen people. God chooses without reason. (Deut 7:7) there was no merit or reason for God choosing Israel other then that he simply chose. Now, can anything in the entire world, history or what man can do could change Gods decision for keeping Israel His people? No, right?
Now how can man do anything to change God’s decision for you as His adopted son?
(John 15:19, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 of many). I believe God is Immutable (unchanging). See it’s not that you chose God and therefore God chooses you, but that God chooses you and therefore you chose God. God draws you to him.
You see, you are either a son, illegitimate son (fake son) or you are completely lost. 3 types. A true Christian, someone who calls Him Lord Lord yet is lawless or someone completely against God. Those are the 3 states of man before God. You are Cold, Hot or Lukewarm. We know that Cold and lukewarm will not be with God in the end. Why would God chose you to be with him and then end up Lukewarm? Lukewarm being the worst as it will be people who think themselves saved but never changed by God, bearing bad or no fruit at all.
Jesus says “if you love me you will obey my commands”. I always allude to this because Jesus did not say “if you love me you must obey my commands”. That there is the difference between someone who acts according to the law and one who lives according to their nature in Grace.
I believe when Jesus says we have been bought with a price it can be related to Slave/Master ownership. Once you have been purchased from eternal punishment and sin, you no longer serve the master of Sin. Romans 6 makes this very clear among many other chapters about a new man. You cannot serve two masters therefore you serve God. Now I hold to the fact that if you are indeed a sheep, child of God, bought and paid for, Sin can no longer steal or purchase you back from our almighty God.
So now we get back to the key. Jesus, living in you, Holy spirit has regenerated you in which you are no longer yoked to a slavery of habitual sin. You will produce fruit. Jesus says I am the vine, you ARE the branch. If you are living through Christ, you will not fall. The only way you can live through Christ is Christ.
There is a sense in which you will take two steps back and three steps forwarded, but there always will be progression in a growth in conformity to the image of God in true righteousness and holiness. There will be ups and downs, but never will there be a fall away.

1 John - the trials of a true Christian. Again, the question is not are you obeying God, the question is, do you hate the sin you once loved? Can you look at your life and say I am a new creature, recreated in the image of God, growing in true righteousness and holiness. Just as Christ rose from the dead we rose with him also in a newness of life.

Lastly, I believe this is the greatest of all Assurances of Salvation besides the promises of God is God’s discipline of his Children.
Proverbs 12:24 - He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently. Now read Hebrews 12:4-17

On a side note, notice the verse about Esau… Esau God hated even before he was born (Romans 9). He is an illegitimate child that was never disciplined by God. Even though Esau sought repentance after he sold his birthright look what still happened as described in Hebrews.

God bless brother!

 

[Mickey]

On a side note, notice the verse about Esau… Esau God hated even before he was born (Romans 9).

Both Jacob and Esau were born of Isaac and Rebecca, yet only Jacob is considered the seed of Abraham. Jacob’s position is clearly not the result of mere human lineage, but is secured because he is the child of the promise. Both Jacob and Esau were called to salvation, for God loves all equally. Esau I have hated (v13): This does not mean God did not love Esau. Rather, God foresaw the wickedness Esau would choose and hated it. Likewise, God foresaw Jacob’s faith and obedience and knew Jacob would serve His purposes.
OSB

 

[dyluck]

Both Jacob and Esau were born of Isaac and Rebecca, yet only Jacob is considered the seed of Abraham. Jacob’s position is clearly not the result of mere human lineage, but is secured because he is the child of the promise. Both Jacob and Esau were called to salvation, for God loves all equally. Esau I have hated (v13): This does not mean God did not love Esau. Rather, God foresaw the wickedness Esau would choose and hated it. Likewise, God foresaw Jacob’s faith and obedience and knew Jacob would serve His purposes.
OSB

Mickey, you stated pretty much that Jacob was the child of the promise. Predestined according to the purpose of God; yet in your next statement, God’s choice for their purpose and possible salvation depended on their works.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, you stated pretty much that Jacob was the child of the promise. Predestined according to the purpose of God; yet in your next statement, God’s choice for their purpose and possible salvation depended on their works.

God knows all. But He does not squash our free will. Faith and works cannot be separated. Esau chose wickedness. Jacob **chose **to do the will of God.

 

[script77]

My answer would be why SHOULD a baby or infant be baptized?

Example, a child is born, breathes, lives for a few minutes and no time for a baptism, do you believe that God in his most tender of mercies would NOT accept that child? I believe he would.
t.

Question is; is that child born in sin? If so, should one born in sin be forgiven/need forgiveness?. lf not so, when should the child receive baptism, after his/her first sin?

 

[rinnie]

Hi dyluck. Hope you had a great couple of days, Mine were great!

Okay a couple of thing’s arent adding up unless I am not getting your point. Now grace and sin. We have got two opposites here. I hope you agree. Now here is my Point you cannot be in grace and sin at the same time. Its impossible. Grace wipes out sin. Read romans 5:20. Now what is a sacrament? It is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Confession is a sacrament. It wipes out sin. Now you said you cannot fall from grace, then its pure and simple then you are saying you cannot sin. What 5:20 says is there is no sin that we cannot be forgiven for if we repent and confess. Its that simple. Thats saying grace can wipe out sin.

Now to be in sin and grace at the same time is to do what you said, be lukewarm. But see God said no. You are either hot or cold there cannot be any lukewarm. So see what God is saying is this, you are either in sin, cold, or you are in the grace of God hot. You cannot be in sin and in grace at the same time. Its useless. You are either with me or against me. With sin is against him without is with him.

Now read Rom 6:14 God tells you, you were born with original sin (the sin of adam) we call that original sin. Sin causes death. Thats why we must all die. If they would not have sinned we would never had died.

But Jesus gave us life through grace. Read rom. 5:16 We not longer have sin over our heads. Baptism Wipes out Adams sin. Now our sin, We can confess it thru confession and have it forgiven. Jesus had the power to do this. Abraham didn’t, see what I mean. Jesus wiped out original sin, and if we do sin and confess and repent the priest can wipe out actual sin. Jesus left him that power.

Now you said we do not have to keep the commandments. Yes we do we must. John15:21 says whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. OBserves means obey.

Now before we go any further do you believe in Apostolic Succession?

 

[rinnie]

One point I want to stress if I can. Hot and Cold. Again hot is without sin, totally in the Grace of God. Sin is cold, without the grace of God. Lukewarm there is no such thing. Like the bibles says its just like cold, sin is sin. You cannot have sin and grace at the same time. It’s like saying you can mix hot water and cold water and still have hot water, you can’t . Just like you can’t mix cold water and hot water and still have cold water you can’t. THink of sin and grace the same way.

 

[rinnie]

By the way dyluck. On the lighter side If I was writing scripture I would say if you were with God you would be cold, without sin. And with sin hot. Get it The devil Mr horns. the fire, hell! :coolinoff: Sorry. Just had to do it.

 

[BILL_PICK53]

Can you please show me the chater and verse

Read the post after this one to find your answer,its in black and white