Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[PRmerger]

I don’t really get it.

Actually this is the teaching of most protestant denominations! And as far as I know (correct me, PRmerger, if I am wrong) this is also the teaching of the RCC!? How could you interpret the Holy Bible then if not with the HS??

Yes, one needs the HS to interpret the Bible correctly–certainly. But how does that work? In the Protestant paradigm, with no authority, each man becomes his own pope and declares, “Thus says the Lord” from his own private interpretation.

Here is the Catholic paradigm:

The Magisterium of the Church
[85](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/85.htm’) "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
[86](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/86.htm’) "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command **and with the help of the Holy Spirit, **it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
[87](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/87.htm’) Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”, (Luke 10:16) the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.(CCC)

 

[PRmerger]

I, by the way, didn’t know that until I started severly reading the Bible, especially the NT. I don’t know why Catholics leave these Verses out!

What??? Where did you read that Catholics leave these verses out? If it’s in your Bible it’s because the CC provided you with it for 2000 years. I mean, really, if we wanted to leave it out we would have done it in the 4th century when the CC codified the canon of Scripture.

Here’s a Catholic Bible website with the verses intact:

usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark3.htm

 

[PRmerger]

I wouldn’t dare to say that we are NOT one body of Christ! (Except Churches mentioned above and similar ones to those according their teachings!)

In Christ,
Esdra

Esdra, my point in giving you all those different examples of the HS supposedly leading 2 different denominations into contrary beliefs was NOT for you to refute each one.

It was to show you that this paradigm of “The HS will lead me to the correct understanding of Scripture” is NOT correct. If it were, people would read the same Scriptures, and, guided by the HS, come to the same understanding, yes?

 

[Esdra]

What??? Where did you read that Catholics leave these verses out? If it’s in your Bible it’s because the CC provided you with it for 2000 years. I mean, really, if we wanted to leave it out we would have done it in the 4th century when the CC codified the canon of Scripture.

Here’s a Catholic Bible website with the verses intact:

usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark3.htm

Okay the RCC didn’t leave this verse out. But WHY then do Catholics say Mary was a virgin here entire life?!

 

[Esdra]

Yes, one needs the HS to interpret the Bible correctly–certainly. But how does that work? In the Protestant paradigm, with no authority, each man becomes his own pope and declares, “Thus says the Lord” from his own private interpretation.

Well, the interpretation IS in the most important parts identical in most protestant denominations!! – even the RCC has! and also the Orthodox Churches. Mostly it is only a matter of a different glance at things.
The ones who have a very different one are to be considered as sects! (see post above!)

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Esdra, my point in giving you all those different examples of the HS supposedly leading 2 different denominations into contrary beliefs was NOT for you to refute each one.

It was to show you that this paradigm of “The HS will lead me to the correct understanding of Scripture” is NOT correct. If it were, people would read the same Scriptures, and, guided by the HS, come to the same understanding, yes?

On most important parts it IS identical! see above!

 

[PRmerger]

On most important parts it IS identical! see above!

Again, Esdra, how do you know what are the “important parts”? What verses in Scripture tell you: this is a minor detail and this is important?

 

[Esdra]

Again, Esdra, how do you know what are the “important parts”? What verses in Scripture tell you: this is a minor detail and this is important?

Well I would say the parts on which nearly all denominations, no matter weather Catholic Orthodox or Protestant. And there ARE many points. These are important.

Well, and the others are sects… (see again above for examples!)

 

[rinnie]

Well you seem to have missed the point of my post rinnie, so here it is again

You said that you asked me about this baptism circumscision thing and that I never responded. Of coarse that was not true. So, I replied

And I included the previous post to prove it. The thing of it is this was at least he second time that I posted this to you rinnie.

Perhaps You can explain why you say: “I asked you good friend Richard and he never responded.” When I had responded at least twice before. Don’t you see how confusing you make this for people who are reading this when you perpetrate such falsehoods. Not to mention your attempt to discredit me personally. Jesus said in Jn. 8: 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

When you speak a falsehood whether or not you intend it, it is a lie and the devil becomes your father. I don’t think that that is what you want so, why do it?

But again Richard I still do not understand that you answered my question. Where does that scripture that you quoted me say that a Child cannot be baptised and must have faith? You still did not produce me scripture that says a Child cannot be baptised without having Faith. You produced me scripture that states Man must have faith to be baptised not a Child?

So maybe when I said that you did not respond I am not producing a lie and doing the works of the devil, I am saying that you did not respond to me the scripture that says a Child cannot be baptised and must have faith.

I showed you how Baptism does not require faith the same as circumcision did not require faith. I asked you to show me the scripture that says a Child must have faith. Again you claim that you did respond it that. So lets wrap us this misunderstanding right now, instead of accusing one of doing the works of the devil.

Please show me the scripture thats says a Child must have faith before getting baptised. So when I said you did not respond the misunderstanding here is You did not respond with the SCRIPTURE that states that a CHILD CANNOT be Baptised and must have faith. How is that Richard, More clear?

 

[rinnie]

Okay the RCC didn’t leave this verse out. But WHY then do Catholics say Mary was a virgin here entire life?!

Because it is the truth. Why do Protestatants reject this?

Tell me Esdra did Jesus refer to all of the Apostles his Brothers? Yes or No? Simple question. Yes or No?

Next simple question Were all of the Apostles the BLOOD Children of the Blessed Mother? Yes or No?

Next question a little harder, one you must investigate for yourself. Did the term brothers and sisters in the days of our dear Lord also refer to Cousins? Yes or No?

Now you claim that the Blessed Mother had Children can you give me their names?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

But again Richard I still do not understand that you answered my question. Where does that scripture that you quoted me say that a Child cannot be baptised and must have faith? You still did not produce me scripture that says a Child cannot be baptised without having Faith. You produced me scripture that states Man must have faith to be baptised not a Child?

That’s just it rinnie why would scripture tell us that an infant can’t be baptised? What it does do is tell us who **can **be baptised.

So maybe when I said that you did not respond I am not producing a lie and doing the works of the devil, I am saying that you did not respond to me the scripture that says a Child cannot be baptised and must have faith.

Again rinnie that is not what you said. You said: “I asked you good friend Richard and he never responded.” And I had responded at least twice before.

I showed you how Baptism does not require faith the same as circumcision did not require faith. I asked you to show me the scripture that says a Child must have faith. Again you claim that you did respond it that. So lets wrap us this misunderstanding right now, instead of accusing one of doing the works of the devil.

Here’s what I responded to you now at least the fourth time.

Ok, let’s examine this a little closer. Who chose the Jews to be “The Chosen People”. Of coarse it was God. Now, this was a commandment of God. God tells Abram that through him all nations will be blessed.Gen 12. This of coarse is a reference to His plan of salvation. Manifest in Jesus Christ. This was God’s decision. There is no faith involved on the part of the people and God in order to identify His chosen people COMMANDS that they be cicumcised.
Ok, fast forward to Jesus time
Jn.3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What Jesus is saying here is that a man an adult of the human race (mankind)must choose to be born again so that he can enter the Kingdom. So, just as circumcision is an outward sign of **God’s choice **of His people.
Gen.17
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Baptism is an outward sign of **our choice **to be one of God’s people in Christ.

Please show me the scripture thats says a Child must have faith before getting baptised. So when I said you did not respond the misunderstanding here is You did not respond with the SCRIPTURE that states that a CHILD CANNOT be Baptised and must have faith. How is that Richard, More clear?

rinnie, scripture doesn’t say say that a child/infant needs faith to be baptised, because YOU CAN’T BAPTISE AN INFANT. Jesus said Jn.3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Man in this v. is talking about an ADULT. Being born again means taking Jesus as Lord and Savior in FAITH. After this takes place the ADULT needs to be baptised to tell the world of thier faith in Jesus and recieve the HS. Jn.3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Originally Posted by PRmerger
So are you saying the Holy Spirit guides all these Christian to the truth?

I didn’t say all of them. I don’t know how to write that which are guided by the HS and which aren’t… I am really lack of word here. I wish I could.
I only now that neither Mormons, nor SDAs, nor JW, nor the Church of Christ (all though I am not sure, because I don’t know this Church, neither their teachings), nor the New Apostolic Church belong to that group.

I wouldn’t dare to say that we are NOT one body of Christ! (Except Churches mentioned above and similar ones to those according their teachings!)

In Christ,
Esdra

So, you are saying that the churches that you mention here are outside the body of Christ and have no hope of redemption? Did I get that right? And if I did under whose authority do you make this judgement?

 

[Esdra]

Originally Posted by PRmerger
So are you saying the Holy Spirit guides all these Christian to the truth?

So, you are saying that the churches that you mention here are outside the body of Christ and have no hope of redemption? Did I get that right? And if I did under whose authority do you make this judgement?

Nothing against you Richard, for I know that your are SDA. But the SDA Church, of which I really don’t know too much btw, have also scriptures of Ellen White besides the bible.
And they also stick to the food-rulez of the OT, at least some do. Please confer therefore my thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=462792.

I would be happy to get an answer for my questions there by you (and also other SDAs.) I know there is at least one more in this board.

Well, and with the other denominations here, it is similar. They have besides the bible also other “Holy Scriptures”. But Attention: I am not sure about the Community of Christ! - Because I don’t know this Church!

Always remember: The Bible is the only source of Faith. Sola Scriptura!

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Because it is the truth. Why do Protestatants reject this?

Protestants only reject that she is honored. Because she was a woman like you and any other one. We are talking here however about that she wasn’t a virgin her entire life!!

Tell me Esdra did Jesus refer to all of the Apostles his Brothers? Yes or No? Simple question. Yes or No?

Yes he did. But read further!
NLV:

The True Family of Jesus
46 As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.

47 Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.”

48 Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. 50 Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

So I would say Jesus makes here a clear destinction between his real brothers and the brothers and sisters referring to his disciples!!

Next simple question Were all of the Apostles the BLOOD Children of the Blessed Mother? Yes or No?

No! But I am not sure, because I am not sure what you mean by Blood Children… I have never heared that term!

Next question a little harder, one you must investigate for yourself. Did the term brothers and sisters in the days of our dear Lord also refer to Cousins? Yes or No?

Yes. This is one of the interpretations. Wikipedia (unfortunately only the German one! The English one is rather poor!), however, says that other interpretations say that they are either the real brothers (and sisters see below), this means the Children of Mary and Joseph. Or the Children of Joseph with his widow (compare “the apocryphal gospel according to James”)

Now you claim that the Blessed Mother had Children can you give me their names?

Have a look at Mark 6:3
**3 **Then they scoffed, “He’s just a carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon. And his **sisters **live right here among us.” They were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.

see also Mark 15:40, 44 (and Matthew 13:55-56). As the Gospel according to Mark is the oldest, I would say these names are quite reliable.

In Christ,
Esdra

 

[Dokimas]

I don’t know. How would one know that? From a feeling?

I am Catholic firstly because I was baptized Catholic; secondly because I have examined the faith and its Truth is quite startlingly profound and magnificent. Thirdly, I suppose it is purely by God’s grace that I have this faith. Fourthly, I have known Him intimately and passionately through His Body, the CC–no other Church offers me the One Flesh Union, which is, quite simply, sublime. (Don’t want to get into a discussion of the Orthodox right now).

NO place for the working of the Holy Spirit?​

Maybe you really can’t answer me directly because you think non-catholics can’t be lead by God the Holy Spirit?

 

[rinnie]

That’s just it rinnie why would scripture tell us that an infant can’t be baptised? What it does do is tell us who **can **be baptised.

Again rinnie that is not what you said. You said: “I asked you good friend Richard and he never responded.” And I had responded at least twice before.

Here’s what I responded to you now at least the fourth time.

rinnie, scripture doesn’t say say that a child/infant needs faith to be baptised, because YOU CAN’T BAPTISE AN INFANT. Jesus said Jn.3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Man in this v. is talking about an ADULT. Being born again means taking Jesus as Lord and Savior in FAITH. After this takes place the ADULT needs to be baptised to tell the world of thier faith in Jesus and recieve the HS. Jn.3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Richard what does it mean to be born of water and of the spirit? Does it or does it not mean to be Baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and Of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus said except MAN he man a huMAN. I told you this Richard. I told you if Jesus actually Meant only MAN he would exclude Women as you are excluding infants. We have been through this Richard. How many times now?

I asked you a million times why could an infant be circumcised in the O.T and not be baptised in the N.T. Where does it state that an infant cannot be Baptised. It does not.

Now explain this to me Richard. In Jn 1:11-13 He came to his own home and people received him not. But to all who received him. who believed in his name he gave power to become CHILDREN OF GOD. who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man But of GOD.

Now you claim we must have faith in order to receive him. But you see Richard that is not quite enough now is it? Why in Jn 22:23-24 did John tell us that MANY people received HIM and BELIEVED in his name and yet Jesus did not trust himself to them?

I will not ask you to answer this Richard I am tired of your twists and turns and games. I will let John answer it for you.

In Jn 2:25 John answers this question, Jesus withheld his saving grace BECAUSE he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man for HE HIMSELF knew what was IN MAN.

3 Times Jesus uses the word MAN. What Jesus says is that Human nature what was in man by itself is not CAPABLE of attaining ETERNAL LIFE. Its not enough to receive and believe, even our own best efforts cannot save us.

So what more can a MAN DO? John shows us when he uses the word man 4 TIMES. THere we meet a Man named Nicodemus a renowned teacher of the Jews. John would have us to understand this MAN is EVERYMAN, EVERYONE that lives and breathes.

Now there is your proof that Baptism will not and could not be held from a infant because it does not have faith. Jesus knows who has faith and who has no faith in them. Because as I have quoted you in scripture Jesus knows what is in every huMAN rather, women, child or Man.

If you are not a Child of Christ you will not receive the Grace given to you from God at Baptism. Jesus will not trust himself to you. You will be held back this Grace from Christ because you are not one of his Children. Children Richard!

 

[rinnie]

In Christ,
Esdra

IF she is just like me Esdra why does scripture say Blessed are you among Women and Blessed is the fruit of thy Womb Jesus?

If she is just like me why was she not born into Original sin the way I was? Why was she saved from Original sin from God at the conception of her Birth?

If she were just like me why am I not called the Ark of the Covenant? You do know what that means do you not? I did not contain the word in Me.

If she were just like me, why was she assumed into heaven by the Power of the Holy Spirit?

Why am I not greeted with Hail full of Grace the Lord is with you.

 

[rinnie]

Esdra Mark 15:40 Mary the Mother of James the younger and of Joses and Salome.

Then we look at what John says John 19:25

Compare the 2 would you please. The Mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas.

 

[PRmerger]

NO place for the working of the Holy Spirit?

I didn’t say that! I said, “How would one know?”​

Maybe you really can’t answer me directly because you think non-catholics can’t be lead by God the Holy Spirit?

I definitely think that non-Catholics can’t be lead by God the Holy Spirit to leave the Catholic Church!

That would be like God wanting someone to leave a holy and sacramental marriage!

 

[PRmerger]

Okay the RCC didn’t leave this verse out. But WHY then do Catholics say Mary was a virgin here entire life?!

Because it was fitting. Do you think the womb that carried the *Divine Word Made Flesh, that carried God Incarnate, *that held the Holiest of Holies, would then carry *anything *else?