Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[PRmerger]

Well I would say…

You would say? You mean Scripture doesn’t say what’s an important matter and what’s a mere detail?

If it’s not in Scripture,* according to your Baptist belief,* then we ought not make any statement about our faith, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by PRmerger
So are you saying the Holy Spirit guides all these Christian to the truth?

So, you are saying that the churches that you mention here are outside the body of Christ and have no hope of redemption? Did I get that right? And if I did under whose authority do you make this judgement?

Um…no. I didn’t even mention redemption. Or being outside the body of Christ.:whacky:

I’m just giving examples of multiple church theologies which have arisen from the paradigm, “The HS will lead me to a correct understanding of Scripture.” Clearly, that is incorrect. The HS has not led one denomination to believe that the Lord’s Day should be celebrated on Saturday and another that it is Sunday. It does not tell one denomination to baptize infants and another that only adults must be baptized…

 

[guanophore]

I have always thought that Catholics believe that Peter was the first pope?

Yes

The pope is infallible, isn’t he? So Peter was!? Or did I missunderstand something there?

Yes, you are misunderstanding the gift of infallibility. It does not mean impeccability (the person is without shortcomings or sins). This gift of the HS fulfills Jesus’ promise to “lead into all Truth”. It means that the Pope will not err in teaching of faith and morals. Peter taught the Truth, though he did not always act upon it all the time.

Then tell me, why does Peter tell that you have to be baptised in the name of Christ Jesus and Jesus that you have to be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost?

Jesus is the name that was given to the second person of the Trinity. When we see Jesus, we see the Father, because the Trinity cannot be separated. There are no human names given to the other two persons of the Trinity.

I think this doesn’t have to do anything with separating from the Apostilic Traditions, but with miss-using God’s word for sawing miss-agreements!

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but I am certain that interpreting the Scriptures apart from what the Apostles believed and taught creates errors.

If you have the Holy Spirit I think you can’t do that… No mater whether you are Catholic or a Baptist or belonging to any other denomination.

Anyone can misuse the Word of God. We are protected against this as long as we hold fast to the Traditions that were given to us by word of mouth. These accompany the Scriptures, and prevent us from straying from their original meaning.

 

[guanophore]

Esdra, my point in giving you all those different examples of the HS supposedly leading 2 different denominations into contrary beliefs was NOT for you to refute each one.

It was to show you that this paradigm of “The HS will lead me to the correct understanding of Scripture” is NOT correct. If it were, people would read the same Scriptures, and, guided by the HS, come to the same understanding, yes?

I don’t usually disagree with you PR, but on this point I think I do. I think the HS is the interpreter of Scripture, and that He does lead into all truth.

I think that there are other assumptions that must be made in concert with this one, though. One of those is that the HS will not lead an individual or a group in an opposite direction than He has already led the Church. This foundational principle is often left out by our separated brethren.

The other is that the HS works through the leadership appointed by Christ. It is true that sometimes individuals will get the message quicker than those invested with authority, but those saintly persons always pray that the HS will give the same message to those who are empowered to act upon it.

If these foundational principles are followed (following the Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium), then the individual has great latitude in following the guidance of the HS as one is interpreting for themselves.

The reason we see problems with people being led in so many divergent areas is that they believe that it is the HS speaking when it is not. There are many voices, the world, the flesh, the devil, in addition to the HS. Most devout bible reders in all sincerity believe they are led by the HS, for example the poster above who believes that Mary was not a perpetual virgin. People depart from the teachings of the Apostles because they are separated from the other two legs of the stool.

 

[guanophore]

Okay the RCC didn’t leave this verse out. But WHY then do Catholics say Mary was a virgin here entire life?!

It is a good question, but off topic in this thread. Just use the search function above and put in “perpetual virgin” or Mary ever virgin and you will find plenty of threads.

Suffice to say that we believe it for the same reason we baptize infants. This is the Teaching we have received from the Apostles.

On most important parts it IS identical! see above!

No. If this were the case, there would be no division in the Body.

What standard are you using to determine what is “most important”?

Always remember: The Bible is the only source of Faith. Sola Scriptura!

Esdra

Do you realize that this concept is not found in Scripture?

 

[Esdra]

It is a good question, but off topic in this thread. Just use the search function above and put in “perpetual virgin” or Mary ever virgin and you will find plenty of threads.

Suffice to say that we believe it for the same reason we baptize infants. This is the Teaching we have received from the Apostles.

No. If this were the case, there would be no division in the Body.

What standard are you using to determine what is “most important”?

Yes, I know that’s a tough one… What is most important? - Well I would say all the things which ALL denominations believe in. Like the Trinity, that Jesus is the Christ, that he saved us from our sins on his death on the cross. - well actually even the Holy Bible belongs to that! I hope it is clear now. PRmerger has also asked me that question very often!!

Do you realize that this concept is not found in Scripture?

Did you realise that the concept of infant baptism or the honoring of Mary and the teaching that she was lifted up in heaven with her whole body just like Jesus is ALSO NOT IN THE SCRIPTURE!?

 

[Esdra]

Yes

Yes, you are misunderstanding the gift of infallibility. It does not mean impeccability (the person is without shortcomings or sins). This gift of the HS fulfills Jesus’ promise to “lead into all Truth”. It means that the Pope will not err in teaching of faith and morals. Peter taught the Truth, though he did not always act upon it all the time.

Jesus is the name that was given to the second person of the Trinity. When we see Jesus, we see the Father, because the Trinity cannot be separated. There are no human names given to the other two persons of the Trinity.

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but I am certain that interpreting the Scriptures apart from what the Apostles believed and taught creates errors.

Anyone can misuse the Word of God. We are protected against this as long as we hold fast to the Traditions that were given to us by word of mouth. These accompany the Scriptures, and prevent us from straying from their original meaning.

NO! You are protected against these errors when believing in the Holy Spirit. He will guide you!! And this is true for ALL denominations. Although not all people listened to the Holy Spirit but to themselves (like the Prophet Joseph Smith!)

 

[Esdra]

You would say? You mean Scripture doesn’t say what’s an important matter and what’s a mere detail?

Sure it does. But you said this is my opinion and not from the Scriptures! see above!

If it’s not in Scripture,* according to your Baptist belief,* then we ought not make any statement about our faith, right?

Wow, come down PRmerger. I am “only” an emergent baptist. I don’t know all details what the Baptists teach!!

 

[Esdra]

Because it was fitting. Do you think the womb that carried the *Divine Word Made Flesh, that carried God Incarnate, *that held the Holiest of Holies, would then carry *anything *else?

Yes, acutally I do, please compare therefore my post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6700285#post6700285

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Esdra Mark 15:40 Mary the Mother of James the younger and of Joses and Salome.

Then we look at what John says John 19:25

Compare the 2 would you please. The Mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas.

Haven’t I written that in my post? Please read it again!! This is ONE of the Interpretations (out of three!!)

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

IF she is just like me Esdra why does scripture say Blessed are you among Women and Blessed is the fruit of thy Womb Jesus?

First of all I must say that I am not too familiar with the teaching of my (ana)baptist Church to this topic. So my information can also be wrong!!!

Because it is a sort of “honor” to bear God himself, I would say!

If she is just like me why was she not born into Original sin the way I was? Why was she saved from Original sin from God at the conception of her Birth?

Well, here our belief diverges again. We don’t believe that a man is born with the Original Sin because God doesn’t judge us for the sins of our ancestors! By the way: The original Sin was crucified together with Jesus on the Cross!!

If she were just like me why am I not called the Ark of the Covenant? You do know what that means do you not? I did not contain the word in Me.

Sorry to disappoint you, I am not sure what that means!

If she were just like me, why was she assumed into heaven by the Power of the Holy Spirit?

This is not biblical!! Otherwise show me the verse!

Why am I not greeted with Hail full of Grace the Lord is with you.

See second comment to your first sentence!!

In Christ,
Esdra

 

[rinnie]

Did you realise that the concept of infant baptism or the honoring of Mary and the teaching that she was lifted up in heaven with her whole body just like Jesus is ALSO NOT IN THE SCRIPTURE!?

Esdra did you realize that the word Trinity is also not in scripture. Now do you reject the Holy Trinity? We do not only go by written teaching we also do what the bible tells us, we are Catholic remember. We also go by Oral teaching.

Remember what the Bible says to go by Sacred Tradition also!

 

[Esdra]

Esdra did you realize that the word Trinity is also not in scripture. Now do you reject the Holy Trinity? We do not only go by written teaching we also do what the bible tells us, we are Catholic remember. We also go by Oral teaching.

Remember what the Bible says to go by Sacred Tradition also!

No, it doesn’t say explicitely in the Holy Bible. BUT one can count, can’t one?

The Bible talkes about god the father. Then in the NT we get to know about Jesus, his son. And we get to know that jesus will send the holy spirit when he has gotten back to his father in heaven (after resurrection)

So, let’S count: 1+1+1 = 3 = TRInity

Sacred Tradition = man made. In the bible it says:

NASB:

Rev 22:18
**
18** I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

In Christ,
Esdra

 

[rinnie]

Oh Esdra, You reject original sin also Esdra why did Adam and Eve get thrown out of the Garden of Eden, and why do we have death? Was it not caused by sin.

Do you reject that God made Adam and Eve in the beginning in a state of holiness freedom and peace, and that they deliberatey brought great sorrows upon themsleves and all thier desendants.

You need to begin at the beginning my friend.

Remember sin came through the world from one Man and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all men sinned (Rom 5:12)

So we are all born in a condition of sin but can only be freed from that condition from the merits of Jesus Christ, Remember. Then Jesus is the word of God who became man for our sake. Remember? The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. By his death on the cross we gain eternal life.

Please study the bible my friend. I can see now why you reject the teachings of the Church, because you do not understand the teachings of the Church.

 

[rinnie]

No, it doesn’t say explicitely in the Holy Bible. BUT one can count, can’t one?

The Bible talkes about god the father. Then in the NT we get to know about Jesus, his son. And we get to know that jesus will send the holy spirit when he has gotten back to his father in heaven (after resurrection)

So, let’S count: 1+1+1 = 3 = TRInity

Sacred Tradition = man made. In the bible it says:

In Christ,
Esdra

No esdra it does not say that. It says to not go by traditions of man, It says much Christian teaching is to be found in TRADITION which is handed down by word of MOUTH 2 tim 2:2) That is Apostolic Tradition esdra.

The bible says Sacred Scripture is profitable but it is still not sufficient. Paul REQUIRES the aid of Tradition 2 Thess 2:15)

The word Trinity came from the Catholic Church Esdra not scripture.

1=1=1=3 Not the word Trinity. The words trinity does not means numbers.

The word Trinity refers to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spriit. No the numbers 1=1=1=

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t usually disagree with you PR, but on this point I think I do. I think the HS is the interpreter of Scripture, and that He does lead into all truth.

I think that there are other assumptions that must be made in concert with this one, though. One of those is that the HS will not lead an individual or a group in an opposite direction than He has already led the Church. This foundational principle is often left out by our separated brethren.

The other is that the HS works through the leadership appointed by Christ. It is true that sometimes individuals will get the message quicker than those invested with authority, but those saintly persons always pray that the HS will give the same message to those who are empowered to act upon it.

If these foundational principles are followed (following the Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium), then the individual has great latitude in following the guidance of the HS as one is interpreting for themselves.

The reason we see problems with people being led in so many divergent areas is that they believe that it is the HS speaking when it is not. There are many voices, the world, the flesh, the devil, in addition to the HS. Most devout bible reders in all sincerity believe they are led by the HS, for example the poster above who believes that Mary was not a perpetual virgin. People depart from the teachings of the Apostles because they are separated from the other two legs of the stool.

I think,guanophore, we are saying the same thing.

Yes, the HS is the interpreter of Scripture–but how does that work? Does it work by someone reading a passage and, after praying to the HS, deciding it means a particular doctrine? Clearly not! We see the fruits of this paradigm in the thousands of Protestant denominations, each teaching its own version of “HS inspired” doctrines.

That was my point to Esdra.

 

[PRmerger]

Did you realise that the concept of infant baptism or the honoring of Mary and the teaching that she was lifted up in heaven with her whole body just like Jesus is ALSO NOT IN THE SCRIPTURE!?

Yes, but that’s YOUR paradigm: Sola Scriptura.

Catholics do not subscribe to this (non-Scriptura) paradigm, Esdra. We follow the* entire* revelation of God, as handed down to his Apostles.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Nothing against you Richard, for I know that your are SDA. But the SDA Church, of which I really don’t know too much btw, have also scriptures of Ellen White besides the bible.
And they also stick to the food-rulez of the OT, at least some do. Please confer therefore my thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=462792.

Well the fact that you don’t know much about the SDA church is evident from your post.
So why make a statement like

Originally Posted by Esdra
I didn’t say all of them. I don’t know how to write that which are guided by the HS and which aren’t… I am really lack of word here. I wish I could.
I only now that neither Mormons, nor SDAs, nor JW, nor the Church of Christ (all though I am not sure, because I don’t know this Church, neither their teachings), nor the New Apostolic Church belong to that group.

I wouldn’t dare to say that we are NOT one body of Christ! (Except Churches mentioned above and similar ones to those according their teachings!)

Again I ask. By whose authority do you judge these churches?

I would be happy to get an answer for my questions there by you (and also other SDAs.) I know there is at least one more in this board.

I have enough irons in the fire right now maybe latter.

Well, and with the other denominations here, it is similar. They have besides the bible also other “Holy Scriptures”. But Attention: I am not sure about the Community of Christ! - Because I don’t know this Church!

The only source of doctrine and faith is the word of God (the bible). The SDA teaches this.

Always remember: The Bible is the only source of Faith. Sola Scriptura!

Esdra

Amen!!!

 

[PRmerger]

The only source of doctrine and faith is the word of God (the bible)

Which is un-biblical. Just like altar calls and Wednesday night church meetings. No Scripture verses support them.

 

[guanophore]

Did you realise that the concept of infant baptism or the honoring of Mary and the teaching that she was lifted up in heaven with her whole body just like Jesus is ALSO NOT IN THE SCRIPTURE!?

Catholics see them in Scripture because we have received these teachings from the Apostles.

However, whatever is not contained in Scripture is not a concern for us, since our faith does not come from the bible.

It is more of a problem for people who claim Sola Scriptura, because you are espousing a man made doctrine from 500 years ago that is not found in Scripture.