Why do some people absolutely "hate" the Catholic religion?

[Gunner]

AlanFromWichita:

You are correct that Protestant dislike for what we say does not change that which is Truth. Similarly, our telling them they are false churches doesn’t change that which is Truth, nor does it make their churches false. Similarly, our claim that we are the only true Church doesn’t make it true; it merely feeds the presupposition that it is.

This is not a difficult concept. Nearly every institution claims their product is the best, and maybe according to some criteria they all have a characteristic in which they are. Maybe one has the biggest sales, another has the fewest returns, another has the most famous actors advertising it. It’s all in how you define “best.”

What is Truth, and how shall we identify it when we hear it? If we define Truth as whatever the church says, then the question is reduced to a word game. We are True because we say we are – and we know we’re right because we are True. It is a word game. It is reassuring for us to think that the leader of our team is able to answer divine mysteries beyond human comprehension, because then we can quash any personal uncertainty and just follow the leader. That’s great for us, but it is presumptuous and inflammatory to go around saying everybody who isn’t on our team is wrong and is going to hell.

Now, on the other side of the coin is “faith.” If we have faith that the Church is true, then that’s great. Don’t be surprised, though, when others don’t take as God-given truth what we believe on faith. Inviting them to the faith is one thing; telling them we are right and they are wrong is bad.

I see I’m repeating myself, but perhaps that’s what it takes to convey an obvious point.

Alan

Faith is a gift, truth is truth. Those with faith can see the truth, those without cannot. It is up to us to witness, only the Holy Spirit can convert. We will be judged nor on how many converison we assisted but on how "Faithful " we were to Christ and his Church. Our Lord detests disobedience, look at what happened to Moses, Lot’s wife, Zechariah, King David. Punishments were given out. We are in no way less culpable than these.

We must co-operate with the grace of God to open ourselves up to faith and to nurture it. If we do not we can lose faith.

We must witness our faith, the language we use must always be Truth. This will either comfort or challenge people. We are not in the game of being nice and politically correct, we are in the game of witnessing for Christ and his True Church, of course being “Charitable” at all times. Obviously this at times will rub others the wrong way. We must pray and be humble in our actions, but NEVER compromise on the Truth as taught by the Teaching Magisterium with the Pope at its Head.

We need to give everyone good example and reasons (Spoken/written and well argued) for not hating us.The rest is up to the Holy Spirit and their own Free-Will.

 

[marthax2]

CatholicCrusade:

Paris Blues,

Hear the Popes of the Church history:

You quoted these popes:

Pope Pelagius II …
Pope Saint Gregory the Great …
Pope Innocent III …
Pope Leo XII …
Pope Gregory XVI …
Pope Pius IX …
Pope Leo XIII …
Pope Saint Pius X …
Pope Benedict XV …
Pope Pius XI …
Pope Pius XII …

Do you accept the teachings in the encyclicals of ALL the popes?**

**

 

[marthax2]

CatholicCrusade:

Paris Blues,

Hear the Popes of the Church history:

You quoted these popes:

Pope Pelagius II
Pope Saint Gregory the Great
Pope Innocent III
Pope Leo XII
Pope Gregory XVI
Pope Pius IX
Pope Leo XIII
Pope Saint Pius X
Pope Benedict XV
Pope Pius XI
Pope Pius XII

Do you accept the teachings in the encyclicals of ALL the popes?

---

**

 

[marthax2]

ahimsaman72:

Your assertions are based on the preconceived notion that the Christian God has done certain things and revealed certain things through men and through Holy Scriptures. And again, don’t misinterpret what I am saying. There are evidences of course for our Christian God and Jesus Christ and His resurrection, etc. But, in the end, given the evidences, one must still place their faith that such things are true.

I’m not sure I understand what a preconceived notion is.

 

[marthax2]

You quoted these popes:

Pope Pelagius II …
Pope Saint Gregory the Great …
Pope Innocent III …
Pope Leo XII …
Pope Gregory XVI …
Pope Pius IX …
Pope Leo XIII …
Pope Saint Pius X …
Pope Benedict XV …
Pope Pius XI …
Pope Pius XII …

Do you accept the teachings in the encyclicals of ALL the popes?

continuation of post #101:

Pope John Paul II wrote in Redemptoris Missio, #10:

“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.”

This is not a contradiction of what all the previous popes have written. Fr. Peter Stravinskas gives a detailed explanation of the development of the understanding of the doctrine “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” down through the centuries, quoting our first Pope, the early Church Fathers, St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope Boniface VIII, the Council of Florence, Pope St. Pius V, Pope Alexander VIII, Pope Pius IX, Pope Pius XII, and the Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism and Lumen Gentium in “Can Outsiders Be Insiders?” at catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0155.html

 

[ahimsaman72]

marthax2:

I’m not sure I understand what a preconceived notion is.

Pre=before
conceived=created, came into being
notion=idea, thought

I meant that the idea or thought had already been implanted in your mind that such things were true. Hope that helps

Peace…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

marthax2:

Pope John Paul II wrote in Redemptoris Missio, #10:

“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.”

Dear marthax2,

Thank you for that quote. Perhaps people wouldn’t hate the Church so much if they knew what the current pope is saying – in obvious contrast to his wannabe followers. Just last night I was discussing Catholicism with my non-Catholic teacher; she said that she had been church-shopping and specifically avoided the Catholic Church because of those who said, and continue to say, that she is going to hell unless she joined. That just didn’t compute with her understanding of Christianity. I will show her this quote by JPII.

BTW, I’m not particularly troubled whether it agrees with what previous popes have said or not. I realize that to perpetuate the “infallibility” thing – which as I understand it is terribly misapplied anyway – some think they have to cover for everything that every pope has ever said in the last 2000 years. Personally, I have more respect for a person or institution who can just come right out and say that this is our current understanding of the Truth, regardless of what others seem to have said in the past.

Also, thank you for the link to that article. I will give a copy to my teacher, whose Catholic friends might be interested to know that the person most responsible for the popular misinterpretation was excommunicated for holding to it.
Alan

 

[marthax2]

Your assertions are based on the preconceived notion that the Christian God has done certain things and revealed certain things through men and through Holy Scriptures. …

ahimsaman72:

Pre=before

conceived=created, came into being

notion=idea, thought

I meant that the idea or thought had already been implanted in your mind that such things were true. Hope that helps

Peace…

Yes, it does help. Now I know how to frame my discussion, I think.

Don’t we all think in terms of ideas we already have? We start learning in infancy and build from there.

What is an implanted idea? We all start with ideas implanted by our parents. We are all influenced by ideas we encounter in society. How does an implanted idea differ from an unimplanted idea? I hope we question our ideas, think them through, and accept or reject them.

I agree with your statement from post #93 that in the end it’s a matter of faith. That’s what the Holy Spirit gives us at Baptism. We do build faith on reason, though.

 

[Paris_Blues]

Hmmmm…well, if the Catholic religion is the “TRUTH” for reality, then what chances do other denomiations have then if they led a good life, tried to be holy, followed the commandments, etc.? They did not “hate” the Catholic religion or anything…just followed what the Bible says and all? Still be condemned or is that up to God? Do Catholics - what do Catholics believe on that then?

blessings,
Nicole

 

[Sherlock]

Nicole,

I would back up a few posts and re-read the quote from JPll. Also, keep in mind that there are limits to what we can know with certainty. I think it is quite like humans to want a definitive answer for all circumstances: “what if a person really loved God but…”, “what if they followed the Bible as best they could…”, etc. Ultimately, God will decide the degree of every individual’s culpability. The Church can only give some broad guidelines, which should, of course, be heeded. Don’t worry overmuch about what is really God’s business to sort out.

God Bless!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Paris Blues:

Hmmmm…well, if the Catholic religion is the “TRUTH” for reality, then what chances do other denomiations have then if they led a good life, tried to be holy, followed the commandments, etc.? They did not “hate” the Catholic religion or anything…just followed what the Bible says and all? Still be condemned or is that up to God? Do Catholics - what do Catholics believe on that then?

blessings,
Nicole

Dear Nicole,

Here are a couple paragraphs from the Catechism:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

[846](javascript:OpenPopupWindow()
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

It’s a little tricky because of the “no fault of their own” part, but I think one sentence from JPII’s quote that marthax2 gave us helps: “The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions.”

Some might think that could not apply in the United States since we have freedom of religion, but if it is applied on an individual level I’d venture the Holy Father would include a child whose immediate cultural environment is a family which is bringing the child up in another faith.

Alan

 

[PaulDupre]

To answer the original question of this thread: Many people, sadly, seem to need something to hate. I believe it is because they have little to love about themselves, so they compare themselves favorably to someone whom they can vilify.

Some choose to hate other races or other nations, while some choose to hate other religions. The Catholic Church is an easy target, because the hater will receive a great deal of reinforcement from other Catholic-haters. When a person hates the Catholic faith, they can tell themselves that their hatred makes them righteous because they are “fighting error”.

By the way, I find this to be true also of Catholics who hate the Novus Ordo mass and everything associated with Vatican II.

God bless,
Paul

 

[Rara_Avis]

AlanFromWichita:

You are correct that Protestant dislike for what we say does not change that which is Truth. Similarly, our telling them they are false churches doesn’t change that which is Truth, nor does it make their churches false. Similarly, our claim that we are the only true Church doesn’t make it true; it merely feeds the presupposition that it is.

Protestants do NOT claim to be “The One True Church of Jesus Christ” so they resent the fact that Catholics do.

Catholics claim - “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” - Protestants do NOT claim this - "They do not say there is NO salvation outside the Anglican or United or Methodist Church - They say love God and we all get to heaven.

Truth needs no defense … It is just Truth. I do not feel the need to prove to protestants that The Catholic Church is “The Way and The Light” because I believe 100% regardless of what they believe. And nobody likes a know-it-all.

That is why Protestants do not like The Catholic Church.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

CatholicCrusade:

Yes, that’s right: unless a person joind the Catholic Church, no matter how good he thinks himself or appears to others, he cannot be saved. You ask if a person who follows Christ’s teaching outside the Church can be saved: NO, he cannot, because to be outside the Church is to reject Christ’s teaching: “And I say to thee: thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” Those who refuse to enter or remain in the only Church that Christ founded necessarily reject this teaching of Christ.

St. Augustine explains: “Whosoever is separated from the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his life may be in his own opinion, he shall for this single reason: that he is at the same time separated from the unity of Christ, not see life, but the wrath of God shall abideth on him. In the Catholic Church, there are both good and bad, but those who are separated from her cannot be good. For, though the conversation of some of them appears commendable, their very separation from the Church makes them bad according to Our Savior: ‘He who is not with Me, is against Me’.”

Crusade = SSPX?

You are wrong. Lumen Gentium 15 - 16 is very clear:

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

**

 

[Detroit_Sue]

CatholicCrusade:

Yes, that’s right: unless a person joind the Catholic Church, no matter how good he thinks himself or appears to others, he cannot be saved. You ask if a person who follows Christ’s teaching outside the Church can be saved: NO, he cannot, because to be outside the Church is to reject Christ’s teaching: “And I say to thee: thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” Those who refuse to enter or remain in the only Church that Christ founded necessarily reject this teaching of Christ.

Crusade = SSPX?

You are wrong. Lumen Gentium 15 - 16 is very clear:

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

**

 

[marthax2]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear marthax2,

Thank you for that quote. Perhaps people wouldn’t hate the Church so much if they knew what the current pope is saying – in obvious contrast to his wannabe followers. Just last night I was discussing Catholicism with my non-Catholic teacher; she said that she had been church-shopping and specifically avoided the Catholic Church because of those who said, and continue to say, that she is going to hell unless she joined. That just didn’t compute with her understanding of Christianity. I will show her this quote by JPII.

Thanks, Alan. I hope our Holy Father’s words will speak to her heart.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

CatholicCrusade:

Yes, that’s right: unless a person joind the Catholic Church, no matter how good he thinks himself or appears to others, he cannot be saved. You ask if a person who follows Christ’s teaching outside the Church can be saved: NO, he cannot, because to be outside the Church is to reject Christ’s teaching: “And I say to thee: thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” Those who refuse to enter or remain in the only Church that Christ founded necessarily reject this teaching of Christ.

CatholicCrusade = SSPX?

I respectfully beg to differ - your view is not the view of the Church. Lumen Gentium 15-16 is very clear:

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.**

You may read the entire document here

 

[ahimsaman72]

marthax2:

Yes, it does help. Now I know how to frame my discussion, I think.

Don’t we all think in terms of ideas we already have? We start learning in infancy and build from there.

What is an implanted idea? We all start with ideas implanted by our parents. We are all influenced by ideas we encounter in society. How does an implanted idea differ from an unimplanted idea? I hope we question our ideas, think them through, and accept or reject them.

I agree with your statement from post #93 that in the end it’s a matter of faith. That’s what the Holy Spirit gives us at Baptism. We do build faith on reason, though.

Good my friend.

Yes, I totally agree with you. For instance, I grew up Southern Baptist. I thought everyone was or should be Southern Baptist. I believed they were correct in their teachings. Why? Because my pastor told me so. Because my parents told me so. Because my other church members said so. And, of course they all used Scripture to point to the Baptist doctrines we held.

Now, consider if I were born in China. I would probably be raised either to abide by the teachings of Confucius, or be Buddhist or be Taoist. Of course the same reasoning would take place. My parents, fellow citizens and temple members reinforced my notions that the religion I grew up in is the “correct” one.

This is the problem we (I) encounter. We ask ourselves - “Why was I born in such a country, with such family, with this social status?” And when we search deep - we wonder how anybody could be the only “correct” one. I have searched deep and have problems reconciling faith and evidence for “absolute truth” in any one religion. I realize this is a heretical view that reeks of spiritual annihilation, but it is an honest process within me.

Thank you for your kind tone.

Peace friend…