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mark_a
Guest
I think with most, especially people that have never been Catholic, its similar to racial prejudice because it (hatred of Catholicism) is taught from early childhood, often in their churches.
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Lisa_N
Guest
Whew this is a busy thread! There are so many knowledgeable people here and it’s helpful to have this information FFR.
As a former Protestant, on the way home, I really haven’t directly experienced strong anti-Catholic rhetoric. OTOH the mildly disapproving reactions from my decision seemed to be based on erroneous information or misconceptions. One person, a member of UCC said “Well you must like to have people tell you what to do.” In his church apparently you can do, believe, think, or act pretty much any way you want and not feel like you are violating any rules…there aren’t any! Another frequent response was “How can you be involved in a church that treats women so badly?” This seems to be based solely on the lack of female priests as I see MUCH more respect and reverence for women in the Catholic church than I ever saw in the Protestant churches I’ve attended.
So if you think Catholics aren’t well versed in their own catechism, believe me, the Protestants are much more in the dark about what the Catholic church believes, what happens in Mass, and how involved the Pope is in our daily lives.
Lisa N
As a former Protestant, on the way home, I really haven’t directly experienced strong anti-Catholic rhetoric. OTOH the mildly disapproving reactions from my decision seemed to be based on erroneous information or misconceptions. One person, a member of UCC said “Well you must like to have people tell you what to do.” In his church apparently you can do, believe, think, or act pretty much any way you want and not feel like you are violating any rules…there aren’t any! Another frequent response was “How can you be involved in a church that treats women so badly?” This seems to be based solely on the lack of female priests as I see MUCH more respect and reverence for women in the Catholic church than I ever saw in the Protestant churches I’ve attended.
So if you think Catholics aren’t well versed in their own catechism, believe me, the Protestants are much more in the dark about what the Catholic church believes, what happens in Mass, and how involved the Pope is in our daily lives.
Lisa N
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TTM
Guest
Hi there,
CatholicCrusade:
God bless,
TTM
Does this in any way contradict the passage from the CCC?:
I, for one, do not think so, and so I have no problems believing both.
Can you please provide the link to the exact quotes from St. Thomas? I suspect you’re taking his ideas out of context. Yes, one can contradict the natural law, and one’s conscience, but it in no way equates to the rejection of the Catholic Church.
God bless,
TTM
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sparkle
Guest
Lisa N:
How do you deal with people like this???I’d sure like a few tips.
This relative came believe it or not to X-mas Eve Mass with us, and stood in the back the whole time–wouldn’t even sit with us in the pew. I said it was nice they came, they just said “Yeah and it will be the last time too”…what do you think this means???
They were extremely uncomfortable!!!
Isn’t that the truth? I have a Fundamentalist Protestant relative (one of many) who said outright “Catholics worship the Pope, we worship Jesus”—they’re threatened I think of even considering anything else other than their own way of thinking. They want everything explained away by a Chapter and Verse. That makes their life nice and easy, and really so they don’t have to think. They’re saved and that’s that, no work, nothing they could do or not do changes anything.
How do you deal with people like this???I’d sure like a few tips.
This relative came believe it or not to X-mas Eve Mass with us, and stood in the back the whole time–wouldn’t even sit with us in the pew. I said it was nice they came, they just said “Yeah and it will be the last time too”…what do you think this means???
They were extremely uncomfortable!!!
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alekzander
Guest
This has got to be very hard for evangelicals to swallow-the thought of them going to hell,they are usually used to hearing catholics,mormons,freemasons,jehovah witnnesses are going to hell-now the shoe is on the other foot.I myself have never been one to have people lead to Christ out of fear-to have people in constant fear of going to HELL is not healthy at all,and some people resort to it a little to much-there are those who would say “Jesus talked more about hell than heaven,but you also must remember when he was getting nailed to the cross he asked the father to FORGIVE the soldiers who were doing it to him,he wasn’t saying"Boy,you are going to the depths of hell for doing this” people need to keep things in perspective and not be so dismissive of people and just easily say"this person is going to hell,that person is going to hell" If you really understand what HELL is, I would hope that you would wish that NOBODY goes there,Protestant,Catholic etc. Some people throw HELL around to easily,the thought of anyone going to HELL should bring tears to your eyes!!Pray for everyone to enter heaven rather than telling them they are going to hell.
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Malachi4U
Guest
I am glad to see that you agree with most other Christians, we are not saved by Faith alone.Jesus said I am the truth,the way and the life. Jesus now sits in the throne room .He will make all judgements on who will be saved and who will not.I think its about time we stop playing God.God bless.
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Lisa_N
Guest
Yes we worship Mary and dead people too (saints). Oh well, old rumors die hard.
Your relative that attended Mass must have been a tough sell. It’s such a beautiful service that it’s hard to believe they were so uncomfortable. Mass is one of the things I most enjoy. The Protestant services tended to be a bit like club meetings, lots of announcements, introductions, sharing of joys and sorrows…we rarely got around to mentioning God or Jesus. I really like that that focus of worship is WORSHIP, not what the Ladies Fellowship group is selling after church or when the youth are going to have their pizza party. But I do understand some of the procedures at Mass are hard to follow. I came with a “coach” the first time!
Lisa N
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Malachi4U
Guest
Could you please give Scripture verses to prove your points?
Sorry, this is not true. Could you please list source, verses and quotes?
So, you believe Catholics are not Christian? That is what you mean as I read your words here. But it is OK to cast your lots on any old protestant sect? On any whim or flight of fancey? What about the followers of Jim Jones or the Branch Davidians or the Mormons or the JW’s, etc…
This again is true and we agree, we are not saved by faith in Jesus alone as our personnal Lord and savior. Faith is much more then that.Like I said Christ will be the final judge on whether I enter in or not.
God Bless, I hope you had a merry Christmass.:yup:
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Sherlock
Guest
Nicole,
Please don’t be put off by the content of CatholicCrusade’s lengthy posts. Remember, this IS the Internet, and so even though this is a valuable forum for asking questions, you might receive someone’s personal agenda instead of the answers you’re looking for----which can be very frustrating.
Rely upon the Catechism. It represents Church teaching, and is (to quote JPll) a “sure norm”. CatholicCrusade comes off as a probable adherent to the Feeney-ite interpretation of “no salvation outside the Church”, which has been condemned by the Church. In other words, take all of that with a truck-load of salt.
Please don’t be put off by the content of CatholicCrusade’s lengthy posts. Remember, this IS the Internet, and so even though this is a valuable forum for asking questions, you might receive someone’s personal agenda instead of the answers you’re looking for----which can be very frustrating.
Rely upon the Catechism. It represents Church teaching, and is (to quote JPll) a “sure norm”. CatholicCrusade comes off as a probable adherent to the Feeney-ite interpretation of “no salvation outside the Church”, which has been condemned by the Church. In other words, take all of that with a truck-load of salt.
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luv_pis
Guest
God Bless to You All.
Why do some people absolutely “hate” the Catholic religion? Now it is true what Gardenswithkids said:
Some hate the Catholic Church because of what they think it is; others hate the Catholic Church because of what it actually is. These two groups of haters are very different.
But, I realized something else, especially after I read Scott and Kimberly Hann’s Rome Sweet Home. Some knowledgeable Church-haters hate the Church because of what it actually is, and because of what they think it is.
Now before I go on with my small discussion, I must state that I deeply love the Roman Catholic Church, and I am totally convinced that it is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. And that love and conviction had been hard-earned after almost falling out of Mother Church due to doubts brought by dialogues with and materials from hard-line Roman Catholic Church haters some years ago.
But even I cannot ignore the question: what if the Roman Catholic Church is WRONG? What if it is NOT the Church that it claims to be?
Then frankly, my dears, the RCC is simply the most DIABOLICAL institution the world has ever known. An institution that claims to be the Infallible Speaker and Interpreter of God’s Will. An institution that claims to bring down God from the Heavens through ceremonies and rituals to reside here on earth in the form of Bread and Wine. An institution that claims to be the Sole Instrument to Redemption from Evil and Hell. An institution that holds sway to the Faith of around 1 billion (did I get that figure correctly?) all around the world.
There are other claims made by Mother Church, but just this small list proves, at least to me, that the Roman Catholic Church can only be either DIABOLICAL or HOLY, and no middle ground. I don’t think any Church-lover can deny this.
And so I have a feeling that some knowledgeable Catholic-haters hate the Catholic Church because She can only be Holy or diabolical, with no middle ground, and they believe her to be the latter.
This is always my mindset when I encounter someone who vehemently hates the Church. To prove to such a Hater that the Mother Church is Holy rather than diabolical is admittedly daunting … in fact, I think that task is quite impossible just by talking to him/her, even with all the evidences you could have on hand. Which is why when such an encounter happens, I can only shrug and pray for him/her to Our Lord, that He would show him/her the Truth, like the way He did for me all those years ago.
Love and Peace to You All
Why do some people absolutely “hate” the Catholic religion? Now it is true what Gardenswithkids said:
Some hate the Catholic Church because of what they think it is; others hate the Catholic Church because of what it actually is. These two groups of haters are very different.
But, I realized something else, especially after I read Scott and Kimberly Hann’s Rome Sweet Home. Some knowledgeable Church-haters hate the Church because of what it actually is, and because of what they think it is.
Now before I go on with my small discussion, I must state that I deeply love the Roman Catholic Church, and I am totally convinced that it is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. And that love and conviction had been hard-earned after almost falling out of Mother Church due to doubts brought by dialogues with and materials from hard-line Roman Catholic Church haters some years ago.
But even I cannot ignore the question: what if the Roman Catholic Church is WRONG? What if it is NOT the Church that it claims to be?
Then frankly, my dears, the RCC is simply the most DIABOLICAL institution the world has ever known. An institution that claims to be the Infallible Speaker and Interpreter of God’s Will. An institution that claims to bring down God from the Heavens through ceremonies and rituals to reside here on earth in the form of Bread and Wine. An institution that claims to be the Sole Instrument to Redemption from Evil and Hell. An institution that holds sway to the Faith of around 1 billion (did I get that figure correctly?) all around the world.
There are other claims made by Mother Church, but just this small list proves, at least to me, that the Roman Catholic Church can only be either DIABOLICAL or HOLY, and no middle ground. I don’t think any Church-lover can deny this.
And so I have a feeling that some knowledgeable Catholic-haters hate the Catholic Church because She can only be Holy or diabolical, with no middle ground, and they believe her to be the latter.
This is always my mindset when I encounter someone who vehemently hates the Church. To prove to such a Hater that the Mother Church is Holy rather than diabolical is admittedly daunting … in fact, I think that task is quite impossible just by talking to him/her, even with all the evidences you could have on hand. Which is why when such an encounter happens, I can only shrug and pray for him/her to Our Lord, that He would show him/her the Truth, like the way He did for me all those years ago.
Love and Peace to You All
A
Adam_Costanzo
Guest
Jesus Himself said that salvation is a gift from God “not by human works, so that no one may boast”. If you’re all saying that we have to know and believe 100% of the doctorine perfectly, then we ourselves have to be perfect, which isn’t possible. The fact is that Christ died for our sins, and we all sin, even Catholics. Salvation is a gift from God, and in return we try our best to please Him. Nobody can be perfect, which is why Christ died for us. What if Catholocism is wrong? We have changed since Christ died.
Wouldn’t Mother Teresa still be saved if she wasn’t Catholic? If everything else was the same, everything she believed, just the fact that she was a Lutheran or something, you’re saying she’d be eternally damned for that.
Wouldn’t Mother Teresa still be saved if she wasn’t Catholic? If everything else was the same, everything she believed, just the fact that she was a Lutheran or something, you’re saying she’d be eternally damned for that.
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CatholicCrusade
Guest
Adam Costanzo said:
NO, Mother Teresa would NOT have been saved if she were not Catholic. YES, she would have gone to hell if she were lutheran or another religion.
Faith alone does not save. Yet modern Catholics forget: works alone do not save, either.
No matter how much good a person does, he cannot please God and cannot be saved without the Faith established by Christ (the Catholic Faith) [Trent], outside of which no one at all is saved [Lateran IV].
See what St. Augustine explained about those who are “good” outside the Catholic Church in post # 38 on this thread. They cannot be good who are outside the Church.
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CatholicCrusade
Guest
“If you’re such a great Catholic with so much knowlege, why don’t you become a priest. (I’m assuming you are a man…??)Obviously there’s so few good ones out there that someone with your expertise and faith is seriously needed.”
I am going to be going to seminary soon, in fact.
“If so many of the Masses are so ‘horrible and heretical’ what’s the point of going to mass at all since nowadays those priests are so misled.”
I would suggest you find a Traditional Latin Mass. There is no heresy preached from the pulpit, the Mass is the same as the Church has had throughout Her history, and there is no sacrilege of Communion in the hand, women “ministers”, protestantized prayers, lutheran-like service, etc., etc.
“If you decide to become a priest, let me know so that I can attend your church and make sure that I’m recieving the WHOLE truth. Since there’s so few good churches out there anymore.”
You need not attend the parish at which I shall be stationed. As I said above, every Traditional Latin Mass I have attended fulfilled the criteria for a good Mass without an heretical sermon.
I am going to be going to seminary soon, in fact.
“If so many of the Masses are so ‘horrible and heretical’ what’s the point of going to mass at all since nowadays those priests are so misled.”
I would suggest you find a Traditional Latin Mass. There is no heresy preached from the pulpit, the Mass is the same as the Church has had throughout Her history, and there is no sacrilege of Communion in the hand, women “ministers”, protestantized prayers, lutheran-like service, etc., etc.
“If you decide to become a priest, let me know so that I can attend your church and make sure that I’m recieving the WHOLE truth. Since there’s so few good churches out there anymore.”
You need not attend the parish at which I shall be stationed. As I said above, every Traditional Latin Mass I have attended fulfilled the criteria for a good Mass without an heretical sermon.
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Brad
Guest
They might all experience degrees of hatred or criticism if they follow Christ but I think it’s fairly obvious that Catholics are criticized, condemned, and persecuted the most. Each individual case may be different but overall, Catholics get it from every angle. I believe this is Satan’s maneuvering to keep people from the one true Church.
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CatholicCrusade
Guest
So if I can only do this by belonging to the RCC I have failed according to your belief system and am doomed for Hell.
Malachi4U:
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (, 1302.Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam)
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull* Cantate Domino*, 1441.) [emphasis added]
These are three infallible statements, with the references and links to the documents.
The Church has said very clearly: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is saved outside the Catholic Church.
There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) [emphasis added]
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (, 1302.Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam)
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull* Cantate Domino*, 1441.) [emphasis added]
These are three infallible statements, with the references and links to the documents.
The Church has said very clearly: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is saved outside the Catholic Church.
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Charash
Guest
Catholic Crusade,
I have read over your posts and have a few observations to make.
First of all, you would have made a good zealot. I identify with your tone because I used to share it–to an extent. You mistake zeal for truth with zeal for charity. I hear no charity in your words. Since Our Lord decreed that God wills all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4), God must provide the means for all men to be saved or His words here are meaningless. Does a Shiite child growing up in Iraq have this means? What about the Hindu girl growing up in an isolated village of Pakistan? Surely you see where this is going.
What Catechism # 846 and other infallible statements about “salvation outside of the church” mean are exactly what they say. God has revealed this truth through the Church, but God is certainly not limited by what He reveals. Do you really believe an all-loving, all-merciful God would condemn billions of souls to hell simply for not being a bona fide member of the Catholic Church–out of their own ignorance? Did not Our Lord embrace someone outside of the Church while on the Cross when He told the “good thief” he would be today in paradise? Christ always reaches out to those on the fringe; we as imitators of Him must do the same, but with faith, hope, and charity most of all.
This is the strict rule of faith we should follow, that “outside the Church there is no salvation,” because this is what has been revealed to us, but we should never take the place of God by judging the souls of others. Only god can judge our hearts: **“God alone is the judge and searcher of hearts; for that reason he forbids us to make judgments about the internal guilt of anyone” ** (Gaudium et Spes 28:2) It is for this reason that the Church has NEVER infallibly proclaimed any human being to be in hell. So what we should do and can do is to pray for those who have yet to hear the fullness of the gospel and share our Faith with them.
Finally, to answer the query about why so many people hate the Catholic Church, I believe it is because they hate–as did even our first parents hate–the act of obedience demanded by the Church to follow her teachings, doctrines, and traditions.
I have read over your posts and have a few observations to make.
First of all, you would have made a good zealot. I identify with your tone because I used to share it–to an extent. You mistake zeal for truth with zeal for charity. I hear no charity in your words. Since Our Lord decreed that God wills all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4), God must provide the means for all men to be saved or His words here are meaningless. Does a Shiite child growing up in Iraq have this means? What about the Hindu girl growing up in an isolated village of Pakistan? Surely you see where this is going.
What Catechism # 846 and other infallible statements about “salvation outside of the church” mean are exactly what they say. God has revealed this truth through the Church, but God is certainly not limited by what He reveals. Do you really believe an all-loving, all-merciful God would condemn billions of souls to hell simply for not being a bona fide member of the Catholic Church–out of their own ignorance? Did not Our Lord embrace someone outside of the Church while on the Cross when He told the “good thief” he would be today in paradise? Christ always reaches out to those on the fringe; we as imitators of Him must do the same, but with faith, hope, and charity most of all.
This is the strict rule of faith we should follow, that “outside the Church there is no salvation,” because this is what has been revealed to us, but we should never take the place of God by judging the souls of others. Only god can judge our hearts: **“God alone is the judge and searcher of hearts; for that reason he forbids us to make judgments about the internal guilt of anyone” ** (Gaudium et Spes 28:2) It is for this reason that the Church has NEVER infallibly proclaimed any human being to be in hell. So what we should do and can do is to pray for those who have yet to hear the fullness of the gospel and share our Faith with them.
Finally, to answer the query about why so many people hate the Catholic Church, I believe it is because they hate–as did even our first parents hate–the act of obedience demanded by the Church to follow her teachings, doctrines, and traditions.
S
Sherlock
Guest
CatholicCrusade,
Would I be right in assuming that you will be going to a seminary of the schismatic SSPX, or some other similar schismatic group?
Would I be right in assuming that you will be going to a seminary of the schismatic SSPX, or some other similar schismatic group?
R
RobbyS
Guest
You haven’t identified the religious background of your relative. Certainly the mass is disturbing to those who do not make the Eucharist the center of their worship as we so, but largely confine themselves to pray, preaching and songs.
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Adam_Costanzo
Guest
Not only that, but I even heard on the radio (from a professional apologist, mind you, someone I have a great deal of respect for). Someone called in and said several members of her family converted to another religion, and wanted to know if they would still be saved. The answer was:
"If they left the Catholic Church knowing that Christ was the center of it, then they can not recieve salvation. But if they left the Church not knowing Christ was the center of it, then they still can recieve salvation."
Keep in mind this person works for the official Catholic radio station, and his program is heard all throughout America. Needless to say he has more credability than most of you, at least as far as I’m concerned. And he’s talking about people actually leaving the Church, so definitely people already outside the Church should be fine. No doubt we have an advantage as Catholics, but “through God all things are possible”, which means it can’t be impossible for a protestant to recieve salvation.
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ferdie
Guest
CatholicCrusade, so everyone who is not catholic goes to hell? So how do you explain purgatory? Is purgatory for catholics only?
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